China’s annual defense budget is set to double by 2015 and exceed that of all other major Asia-Pacific countries, according to figures from leading defense consultancy IHS Jane’s.
The numbers, which were sent through to me this week, suggest China’s defense budget will soar to $238 billion – more than the next 12 leading Asia-Pacific countries combined, and four times that of second place Japan, which will be spending an estimated $64 billion.
As Rajiv Biswas, chief economist for the Asia-Pacific at IHS Global Insight, noted, Beijing has been broadly able to devote an increasingly large portion of its overall budget towards defense, and “has been steadily building up its military capabilities for more than two decades.”
“This will continue unless there’s an economic catastrophe. Conversely Japan and India may have to hold back due to significant economic challenges. Japan’s government debt and the investment needed after Fukushima will impact defense spend. We will increasingly see budget channeled towards key programs and equipment. India’s government debt and fiscal deficit is very high as share of GDP, and the rupee depreciated significantly in 2011 – all of which will limit India’s defense ambitions.”
Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping is finishing up a five-day visit to the United States this week, a trip undoubtedly aimed in part at mollifying U.S. concerns over its rise and presenting a friendlier face (although holding this face won’t have been easy, with Xi receiving the expected election year scolding over playing fair and human rights).
One of the concerns the U.S. and others have is China’s growing assertiveness in the South China Sea, an area that China has made expansive claims to, but which is also claimed by countries including Vietnam and the Philippines. The U.S. has insisted that it supports freedom of navigation in the region, a position that irks Beijing, which is keen that Washington respect its “core interests.”
All this ties into the latest defense figures because an increasingly powerful Chinese military may become more emboldened to assert its claims more “robustly.” This is a point picked up by American Enterprise Institute scholar Michael Auslin writing in The Diplomat yesterday, who notes potential lessons from the fall of Singapore back in 1942.
“There remains every reason for Washington and Beijing to keep peaceful relations. But history is full of surprises, usually for status quo powers. The United States maintains extraordinary strength and with the right economic growth policies can be the world’s dominant nation for decades to come,” writes Auslin. “But it may not be able to be dominant all the time in regions with rising powers. The lessons of Singapore remind us not to overestimate our strengths and to honestly face up to our weaknesses.”
One question, then, is whether China’s ramped up military spending is likely to be used to assert its claims in the region. I asked Paul Burton, Jane’s senior defense budget analyst, for some details on what exactly the money is set to be spent on. He noted that the country’s military aircraft spending is set to rise from $7.8 billion in 2012 to $11.3 billion in 2015, while Beijing also “continues to bolster its space capabilities, launching the Shenzhou-8 unmanned spacecraft on 3 November and docking it with the Tiangong-1 space laboratory.”
“These two markets alone are due to increase by nearly $7 billion between 2012 and 2015,” he said. “Both would be regarded as offensive.”
So, is a pumped up Chinese military budget an inevitability that China’s neighbors – and the United States – will have to learn to live with? Not necessarily, according to Flashpoints contributor Trefor Moss.
“It is important to remember that military modernization, for all the headlines it generates, is not Beijing's number one priority,” Moss noted recent in Jane’s Defence Weekly. “National development takes precedence, and in 2011 the internal security budget outstripped the defense budget for the first time. If a period of social and economic instability is approaching, these two areas would definitely be ahead of defense in the queue for extra funds.”
This is unlikely to mean that China’s defense budget is actually cut – it would take more than the global economic slowdowns to make that happen. But with Europe struggling to get its economic act together, and with the United States’ economic recovery still fragile, the possibility of China having to slow defense spending certainly can’t be ruled out.







DownRedChina
China officially started the Cold War.
applesauce
what is the problem with the world’s biggest population and second largest economy spending the second largest amount on the military?
in addition, the largest spender will still spend something like 3-4 times(probably more) the amount of the second place china
on the article:
“the country’s military aircraft spending “…..”launching the Shenzhou-8 unmanned spacecraft on 3 November and docking it with the Tiangong-1 space laboratory.”
….”Both would be regarded as offensive”
that is debatable, given the large air space china needs to cover and the air forces of the neighboring countries such as japan which will get the f-35 in addition to the current hundreds of f-15’s(also the Russian modernization as well and the Indian modernization). not to mention the US CBG’s in the region with its hundreds of f-18s . one can argue that the airforce spending is defensive in nature given that no offensive only planes to due to be acquired such as large bombers.
also doing science in space is now regarded as offensive? someone needs to do something about those members of the ISS then.
DownRedChina
China should use the money to improve Chinese’s lives and feed your people.
- so Mainland woman stop ‘Locust Invasion’ of Kong Kong. The social benefits are for Hong Kongers.
- so Chinese fishermen don’t steal fish from other’s nations and killed coast guard when get caught.
- So Tibetan stop setting themselves on fire.
applesauce
Ahm that is where you are wrong.
1. the money to improved the lives of the people are being spent as we speak, the general Chinese populace has seen their real income rise every year for the last several decades unlike in the US where the income of the average worker has basically stagnated since the 70-80’s while the rich has gotten richer by hundreds of percentage points.
2. we arnt in the 60s anymore. China is 99% self sufficient in terms of food, feeding ~20 percent of the worlds population on ~10% of the world arable land. starving to death is a relatively big story these days.
3. to develop as fast as china means that there will be unequal development(case in point india and brazil), this is unavoidable, hong kong is free to make restrictions on incoming pregnant women that is their right under the 1 country 2 government agreement, at any rate this is none of anyone’s concern who is not a chinese citizen, no laws are broken and other nations are not affected.
4. those that fish in other people’s waters are criminals, are you trying to say there is no criminals in your country? those that do so in disputed waters is a different story, generally the agreement is to catch them but not put them under trial, japan did that and soured relation very badly a while ago.
5. due to the developmental plan, tibet being in the west has traditionally grown slower than the coast(as did all inner Providences), this however is changing under the current plan and Tibet has been recording some of the fastest growth rates as of late(12+%),
the self immolation problem is not about the amount of money being spent or the availability of food,it is about those monks believing that they are losing their culture and few economic opportunities available, but like i said the economics portion is being worked on, as for their culture i believe the government will just drove out the voice of the old and integrate the younger generation, it may not be a benevolent plan but if it works, it works.
DownRedChina
@applesauce February 19, 2012 at 1:51 am
No doubt China is second biggest economy. But:
- Elite CCP members have a huge chuck of it. Why does China have an economy that is highly unequal and dominated by the state? The answer is quite simple when considering China’s political system and contemporary history. Despite economic reforms that liberalized goods markets and the labour market, the state continues to hold a tight grip over most of the financial institutions.
China is increasingly splitting into a small upper class that spends freely on luxury goods.
- According to the Ministry of Education, only 68 percent of college graduates in 2010 were able to find permanent employment. In major cities, many college graduates live as an ‘ant tribe,’ packed tightly in small dormitory rooms with four or more roommates.
- What Japan did was right and lawful. China reactions were totally wrong. China encourages its citizens to “go ahead and be unlawful, we will protect you don’t matter what”.
“are you trying to say there is no criminals in your country?”
Show me any facts where US fishermen steal fish from other’s nation, get caught and killed their coast guard.
“3. to develop as fast as china means that there will be unequal development(case in point india and brazil), this is unavoidable, hong kong is free to make restrictions on incoming pregnant women that is their right under the 1 country 2 government agreement, at any rate this is none of anyone’s concern who is not a chinese citizen, no laws are broken and other nations are not affected.”
We are looking at the bigger problem here. China Mainland woman drain social benefits that belong to KH people are just an example. There are well known facts that Han Chinese people have land grabbing ambitions, IP theft, making counterfeit products. Have you heard this “what mines are mine and what yours are also mine”. That’s for China.
James the Australian
Down Red China…..Whatever your mentality regarding China, this Nation is on the Rise and Rise.
I suggest you get use to it.Crying the anti China theme all over these blogs will not make the slightest difference at all!
For all your anti China cries,who bothers?
Frankly, I am sick of reading the same old blogs that you espoused….get real mate.
applesauce
-oh please, income inequality is about the same in china as it is in the US(go see the gini income disparity index), can i now say that this is due to the so called democracy? can i now say the US is infact rule by a hand full of super rich families, how is this group of people any different that your idea of the ruling ccp in china?
-employment for the people is on of the largest concerns of the chinese government, why do you think the most often cited figure from the government itself is to aim for 8% growth or more? why do you think the general retirement age in china is 60 for men and 55 for women? obviously they are working all they can to lower unemployment but simply throwing money at a problem doesnt solve it, you can create bubbles and inefficient labor etc. solution is not to pump more money but to have a smarter use with the money. that is where the promoting of higher value goods comes in, china is trying to make more valued good because those goods require more skill thus more pay and will raise the living standards but again this takes time.
- oh yes because the only way to show that other countries have crimes to show an example of the exact same crime… so since you cannot show a example of chinese people running a ponzi sceme the size of madoff’s i can say that all americans are evil greedy lawless criminals? and since china do not have such an example i can say that all chinese are financially disiplined, champions of financial law? according to you maybe america should cut the military spending by 50%(and would still be the world’s largest) and spend that money on financial law education/enforcement?
-well known? the current land/ocean claims are older than even modern china it self and over the last 60 years those claims have only gotten smaller and never larger(unlike say the US which fought mexico several times for territory as well as spain and britain). IP theft happens everywhere china just happens to be the favorite media story. Americans stole designs all the time from britain during it’s industrial revolution, japan in the 60-70’s was often cited to have stolen design and other IP from the US. IP rights are weak across the developing world and is just more more area that is being improved abit slowly.
DownRedChina
“…how is this group of people any different that your idea of the ruling ccp in china?” This group of people let its people protest and have freedom of speech, religious. This group of people didn’t kill 70 millions of its own people and didn’t crush its people with tanks, didn’t detain/house arrest 6 year old school girl.
“…running a ponzi sceme the size of madoff’s” What did the US government punish the criminal? Lock him up in prison for the rest of his life. If South Korean release the Chinese boat captain, China would welcome him back home like a nation hero. Is that right, applesauce?
applesauce
@downredchina
1.
however i was talking about from a financial perspective, clearly as you indicated about the rich elites, the american elites are keeping all the money for themselves given that the inequality in this perspective is about the same in china and the US, meaning financially speaking the american elites are not different from the ccp at all.
And for the record, im sure the native americans would like a word about the millions dead, and the buffalo hunts among other things, designed to starve them of their food and supplies. and before you go on about how its all history, so is the cultual revolution and great leap forward and the intent was differnt as well, the ccp or mao ,specifically, did not set out to starve people, its just that his policy was terrible and ended up starving people.
2.
now your assuming things and going into the realms of what-ifs
a better example for you then would be the story of the people who created the subprime crisis, and after it burst, simply got a bail out and some was able to cash out completely while the pention funds and average savers sunk, where was the justice there? The financial powers and their washington puppets actually blocked regulation of the derivatives market even though mountains of evidence exist that it should have been regulated, some very powerful people made phone calls and meeting to make sure the bubble got huge and they and their clients got rich(er) then walked away having recieved huge bails and worst of all, kept their jobs(or switch to other equally good jobs). also notice how the top ceos of the fianacial world are always those few people, the same names keep popping up over and over again.
3.
first of all, if a chinese captain fishes in what is undisputely another nations waters then that nation has full rights to punish said captain, however like i said, in disputed waters things are much more murky, this captain should not have stabbed anyone and no the government isnt going to welcome him back “like a hero” in responce to the incident the chinese govenrmnet has already said that it would increase fishermen education, its not like they can promise to better police the area, they would like to, but im sure the other claimant has something to say about that.
nirvana
@applesauce,
Indeed the income inequality of China and that of the US are about the same (in fact now, China is slightly above the US). What does it tell? That despite China’s claim of aiming at socialism, China’s model is the US ultra-liberal society.
The extraordinary economic growth of China in the past three decades can be explained by the foreign investments that have been pouring in since the 90s; and that is because China has been the most attractive place for the most extreme form of capitalism. K. Marx was wrong when he predicted that Capitalism will dig its own tomb. He did not predict that Capitalism will flourish in a country ruled by a party still pretending it holds high the banner of the dictatorship of proletarians. Is it not the paradise for capitalists?
You may say, all is fair, in love as in war. If the US has risen up to the current hegemon level, from appropriation of natives’ land, exploitation of african slavery, colonialism wars, Cold wars, and imperialism view on world natural resources, why can’t China do the same, and even further. I believe that China would. It is absurd to think that it will do otherwise once it possesses the means to do the same, that is a powerful military.
But one thing I would add that shows a small difference between the US and China is that in recent history, several US administrations have acted, in several occasions, as a true world leader (obviously not always, sadly). On the other hand, your New China has constantly acted as a free-rider, in WWII, in the Cold war and in today’s various global issues. This is why I think that, in 2030, even if China’s defense spending could match that of the US, in an all-out confrontation (which seems inevitable), be it cold or hot, China will eventually be the loser.
applesauce
@nirvana
1.
you are much more reasonable that downredchina, and yes i agree , i was pointing out to downredchina that income disparity does not necessarily mean ones leadership is anymore “evil” than the other and in fact if i had taken his words at face value then i would have logically came to the conclusion that the US as well as china is evil and basically run by the same peoples.
2.
no one should do the same just because others have done so in the past, slavery genocide, imperialism, one should not repeat those things, but it is also tiresome when these same people who have committed these crimes against humanity turn around and lecture you on why you need to increase costs on everything for the good of the environment when you cannot afford to and they refuse to provide the financial aid and why you have to raise wages when that is the only thing helping you keep your job without with you would starve. that is not to say environmental issues aren’t important but hard decision are what governments must make sometimes. and in this case the way out is to climb up the value chain but here too those others protest how you steal technology to climb the ladders and fears the competition you bring and spew theories about the yellow threat everywhere including how the ccp is somehow inherently evil when it has shown that all it has done is try to raise the living standards of its people, and yes even things like the great leap forwards and the cultural revolution was a part of that. misguided and ended up being disastrous but the plan wasn’t to starve people, the plan was to improve the nation, it just didn’t work out well.
3.
free rider you say? well up until very recently, china could do nothing but go along with and “freerider” on the backs of the us and others efforts given its lack of power. in addition i agree there are cases of world leadership from the US but again that is not the chinese policy, you want to police the world,fine i only want to take care of whats affecting me. and to be clear china would never want a outright war with the US, the sole exception being taiwan(or an invasion of china i suppose), but i wouldn’t be so sure of a us victory in a cold war decades from now. and the whole freerider argument comes from a US designed world anyhow, if one does not fit into a US framework they are a freerider or an international outcast, it doesn’t mean their policy is necessarily wrong, frankly one can argue the Chinese policy has been very successful, having kept china out of the mess in the middle east and allowing it to work in dangerous environments. plus any build up of arms(faster than currently) to help the international security(and national security) would only result in more theories on the threat of china anyhow. giving how bad things are this election year, any faster procurement would probably increase the chance of a cold war greatly.
ACT
@ applesauce, Nirvana
actually, when the US conducted simulated war games with China as the opponent in the early 00’s, The United States lost every single time; all the Chinese OPFOR had to do was destroy all of the US’ satellites for GPS and so on; no more laser guided weapons, no more force coordination: US forces were overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
nirvana
@ACT,
Interesting. But this does not negate the point I hinted to above. That is, in an all-out war, and even in a larger generalized world conflict, the humanity in us plays the ultimate determining role. Human conflicts can never be modelled and their outcome can not be predicted by computers. The German military planners could not predict that the Russians would fight heroically in WWII. Who could predict that the Soviet tank crews disobeyed order in the August 1991 failed coup?
applesauce
@ nirvana
agreed
@ ACTA
i would assume in the sims it takes place inside of china, in which case yes the US could not hope to occupy china
John Chan
I wonder what support does the author have to smear China as “China’s growing assertiveness in the South China Sea”? China even dares not to kick out those aliens illegally occupying its islands inside its territory line. Even a pacifist Japan dares to use force to expel Chinese who tried to land on its own islands, Daioyu Islands. Japanese action is the example of assertiveness, while Chinese behaviour one could call it the expression of “peaceful rise” if one wants to white wash China’s bow to the pressure of the Westpac and its lackeys.
SCdad07
Miks already concluded that Ms. Tseng would have roller coaster years (2011 up -2012 down), hitting bottom in 2012 in world competition golf.
Will his Ai Miyazato show up?
bangsarster
You are right Mr Chan. The Chinese are actually pussycats when its comes to the Killing match and blood start to flow like rivers. Thus China has no other choice but to raise peacefully. Chinese leaders have forgotten about their own weakness so the World need to teach them the hard way.
Anyway, I guess you are a Chinese so you must convey the truth that China is not in position to fight a hard fight to your leaders.
John Chan
@bangsarster,
Although I am disappointed the self restrain China imposed on itself, but I never doubt China can beat aggressors at anytime; India, USA, Vietnam, Japan and Philippine were some of the losers in China’s hand. But those losers were really shameless because they claimed victory even they lost.
Reason
@ John Chan
Sorry mate, you’re not getting away with a flippant comment like this….
India – the PLA beat off an ill-prepared rag-tag, sleepy Indian army – you can have this victory, but it’s hardly worth writing home about
USA – Firstly, it was UN mandated troops, not the US. Secondly, only a commie can ever claim that the Korean war was a victory – What actually happened, if you are prepared to read books, is that 100,000s of PLA troops were sacrificed pushing back a vastly over extended line. – Hardly a beating. Especially if you prepare the casualty figures -which just happen to matter for decent civilizations.
Vietnam – John – you lost this war -the Vietnamese kicked the PLA’s a*s. The PLA got totally scragged
Japan – John, you lost this one – and your country – the US beat the Japanese, not the PLA.
and Philippine…. hmmmmm, you’re gonna have to enlighten me on this – when did the PLA kick the Philippines as? – are you talking about Mischief Reef? Hardly a war Johnny Boy
Cyrus14
Maybe the Battle of Yuldong or of Errie Hill but if I remember it correctly (Do correct me if I’m wrong John Chan) the PLA got a beating in the hands of the Filipino’s.
Once studied in Vietnam
@Reason
“Vietnam – John – you lost this war -the Vietnamese kicked the PLA’s a*s. The PLA got totally scragged”
All the figures regarding the Sino-VN war in 1979 are from China or estimates from the West. None of them (say it again, none) came from Vietnam because Vietnam would never dare to disclose the data because it knows that once the Vietnamese people knew about the data, it would do serious damage to her national psyche.
But a Vietnamese colonel (Bui Tin) who was the deputy editor of the official Vietnamese military journal of the Vienamese Communist Party, when interviewed by BBC Vietnamese language broadcast, in which he promoted the supposedly victory by the Vietnamese, said in passing and by the slip of the tonque, that in one battle, just one battle, the Vietnamese suffered casualties in the thousands.
Another fact is that during the first week of the war, the Chinese suffered a lot of casualties at the hands of the Vietnamese military dressed up as civilians because the Chinese were conducting the war based on war conventions of not attacking civilians.
The third fact is that China had announced in advance that the war was not to occupy Vietnam and would be short in duration.
Typhoon
@Reasons & @ DownRedChina,
According to US Military History,their most humilating and the worst defeat was at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir in North Korea during the Korean War; officially ended the US led UN Forces occupation of North Korea. It was also the 1st defeat by US 1st Marine Division at the Hands of the PLA.
Consequently, it led to the longest retreat by US Forces and in desparation, they had to abandon many heavy weapons behind. These captured weapons are still on display at Beijing Military Museum.
My question to both of you: How could you give an accurate account of Enemy casualties when you are on the run most of the time.
To me, all this figure on Chinese casualties is guesstimation at best.
They had to inflate the claims on enemy causalties in order to mask their shameful defeat at the hands of the poorly Armed Chinese Army.
This had reminded me how the US Army made absurd claim on Enemy killed by making body count during the Vietnam War. They include the entire village population which was wiped out by Napalm Bomb.
It has become a joke when the Americans claim on Enemy killed out number the entire Communist Forces.
DownRedChina
@John Chan
You are spew trash again.
- 37 thousands US casualties versus 1 million Chinese casualties. How so “PLA won”?
- Japs beat PLA like running ducks at anytime and anywhere. US rescued China on that one. Why badmouthing the helper? I forgot cause you are a Chinese.
- Vietnam humiliated PLA at 1979 border war with irregular forces. The main forces were still in Cambodia – lucky for China there. The results could be more devastate if PLA met Vietnamese main forces head on.
applesauce
@DownRedChina
you sir are the one spewing trash.
American casualties in Korea was well over 100,000, the 37,000 was the number of dead. in addition by the time china intervened the NK army has been destroyed, at that point it was basically the PVA vs the entire coalition and the result was roughly 2 PVA deaths for every one coalition death. this in it self considering the vast technological advantages of the coalition was a surprising result.
the reason victory was claim was because NK its still here, the goals for the PVA was realized while the coalition who by the second half of the war wanted to reunited korea clear failed in that goal.
as for the Japanese they claimed to be able to overrun china in 6 months, but shanghai itself took over 3 months to overrun even with total air/naval supremacy. at the end of the day 4 million vastly better trained, and armed Japanese troops with total air and naval supremacy was never able to venture father than Manchuria and the coastal areas. so anytime anywhere? not so much
your excuse for the Vietnamese forces was that most of them was elsewhere but at the same time, realize that the Chinese army at the time was the weakest in modern Chinese history due to the disasters that happened just prior and even during the war ie: cultural revolutions, great leap forward, it got so bad even the rank system in the army was abolished yet even with that they basically clear the way to Hanoi
Cam
@Once studied in Vietnam,
I could say your time studied in Vietnam was a waste. Because none of your “facts” is true. I myself don’t support any wars as war itself is a hell for both sides. For Vietnamese people, people war tactics have been used for thousands of years. We have a saying “when enemy comes, women have to fight”. And in Vietnamese history, there are full of stories, in which women and even children became heroic soldiers killing lots of enemies. Guess who? The Chinese! The fact is Vietnamese border militias didn’t wear the army uniform. They were just farmers or workers in peace time and become militia during war time.
For a nature of communist regime like Vietnam, they don’t publish their war casualties. The same goes for China. So the number from Western observer could be somewhat reliable.
I had a chance to live with a Vietnamese veteran of the 1979 border war for 6 months in a refugee camp. This guy was from the Northern province of LangSon and he fought the Chinese as a militia during the war. His battle experience was a everyday story for us after the dinner. He told the Chinese still used the human wave tactic employed during the Korean war. The local Vietnamese militia and border troops, full of grenades, machine guns and ammunitions just dug out in the high terrain waiting for the Chinese charging into their death. Worse, the Chinese didn’t know the terrain and local people (the mountainous minority didn’t cooperate with them).
The very truth is the Chinese very successfully crippling the economy of those Vietnamese provinces for years after the war because of its “earth scorching policy”. Houses burned, bridges, roads, factories, schools were totally destroyed. So for the Vietnamese, war with Chinese is hell for sure but we are willing to fight for survival just like our ancestors did.
Once studied in Vietnam
@Cam
“…For a nature of communist regime like Vietnam, they don’t publish their war casualties. The same goes for China. So the number from Western observer could be somewhat reliable…”
The Chinese did publish their casualty data and western observers used that data to make their own estimates. Go and read the citations quoted by western authors on the Sino-VN war. But Vietnam has been dead silent on their casualty data, except, as I said, when colonel Bùi Tín slipped his tonque during the BBC interview. You see, even you didn’t seem very confident in your words by saying “the number from western observer “could” be “somewhat” reliable.”
No doubt, the Chinese made some serious mistakes in the first week of the war, by forgeting the very principle of ‘people’s war’ (chiến tranh nhân dân) in which all civilian men, women and children are fighters dressed up in civilian clothes.
Until today, it still puzzles many Chinese military analysts as to why the first plan of action was not approved by the Central Military Committee that would have called for the use of a much stronger firepower that includes air strikes, instead, a battle plan of much lesser intensity was approved.
As far as I know, Bruce Elleman is a respected author of Asian history. He describes the war as one where China had limited objectives that were achieved without deploying any of their well-trained forces or using any of their advanced military hardware. The war was mainly fought to test Soviet resolve in protecting their Vietnamese ally.
You and I will never agree on anything because you are obliged to speak for VN no matter what and I totally understand that. Your friend may have been telling a micro story but colonel Bùi Tín’s slip of the tonque tells a significant macro one.
nirvana
@Once_studied..,
I can advance an explanation why Deng Xiaoping did not authorize the military bolder plan of attacking Vietnam from both land and sea(through Laos and amphibious assault on Danang). It could be because he could not get President Carter’s assurance that the US would side with China if the Soviets intervene.
Deng did not achieve his strategic objective (Vietnam did not withdraw from Cambodia). But the US got the information they wanted: the Soviets were finally a paper tiger. This allowed Reagan to launch his Space War bluff.
Anyway, discussing nighty-gritty details on how many died on each side is disgusting. All fallen men thought they serve their countries.
Ban Hien
@Cam,
Based on the Wikipedia (link below), on the China side, an estimate of: 26,000 killed, 37,000 wounded and 420 tanks destroyed. On the Vietnam side, an estimate of 30,000 killed, 32,000 wounded and 185 tanks destroyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War
Below are the BBC links, which Bui Tin talked about the Sino-Vietnam border war in 1979 and how China was stealing lands from Vietnam (by moving the border marking posts).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/vietnamese/av/2010/07/100728_buitin_iv.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/vietnamese/vietnam/2010/07/100728_laoshan_battle.shtml
The BBC website also mentioned about how disappointed the PLA soldiers were after the war, as China seems to forget about their sacrifices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/vietnamese/vietnam/2009/04/090521_chinese_soldiers_memory.shtml
SCdad07
Defense budget to be double to US$238 billion by 2015 according to IHS Jane, said this article.
US “president’s spending plan calls for a Pentagon base budget of $525.4-billion, about $5.1-billion, or 1%, less than approved in 2012. The cost of US wars abroad would fall 23%, to $88.5-billion from $115-billion, primarily due to the US withdrawal from Iraq and a drawdown in Afghanistan” as reported by David Alexander and Jim Wolf.
It looks like China is being left in the dust.
Richard
Hopefully the expected increased defence spending will also speed up China’s climb in technological development.
Liang1a
Will China really double its military budget by 2015?
I don’t know if China will actually double its military budget by 2015. But I would certainly applaud the Chinese government if it did. China’s announced military budget for 2011 was some $91.5 billion or 601 billion yuan (At the exchange rate of 6.57 yuan per dollar in March of 2011 when the budget was announced. But at the current exchange rate of 6.3 yuan per dollar this is some $95.4 billion). This is only around 1.27% of 47.2 trillion yuan of 2011 GDP. Comparing this to American military budget which is some 4% to 6% of America’s GDP one would realize that it is actually minuscule and wholly inadequate to safeguard China in the face of increasing invasion of Chinese sovereign territories all around its extensive borders and waters.
It is also estimated by IHS Jane’s that China’s military budget for 2011 was actually higher at $119.8 billion. I don’t know what yuan amount this dollar amount was based on. At 6.57 yuan per dollar it would be 783 billion yuan but at 6.3 yuan per dollar it is only 755 billion yuan. If China’s economy grows at 8% per year for the next 4 years then it will reach some 65 trillion yuan by 2015. 1.5 trillion yuan would be some 2.3% of 65 trillion yuan. This is still a very small percentage of the GDP. How much this amount is in dollars depends entirely on the exchange rate then prevailing. If the exchange rate remains at 6.3 yuan per dollar then 1.5 trillion yuan will be $238 billion which is the amount of Chinese military budget estimated by IHS Jane’s for 2015. But if China raised the value of the yuan by 1.3 yuan per dollar to 5 yuan per dollar then the same 1.5 trillion yuan would be worth $300 billion or close to half of America’s military budget at some $600 billion. So how much China’s military budget will be in terms of dollars is uncertain because of the uncertain exchange rate then prevailing and since Jane’s cannot predict what the exchange rate will be, it is futile for it to predict the dollar amount of China’s 2015 military budget. But I would hope that it would be some 3% of the GDP in terms of yuan. Therefore, if China’s GDP reaches 65 trillion yuan in 2015 then I hope its military budget for 2015 will be some 2 trillion yuan. And at 5 yuan per dollar this would then be some $400 billion.
Since China’s military technologies have advanced almost to the same level of the US and it no longer needs to import any foreign products for its arms and materiel, it is much more accurate to use the yuan amount to estimate the kind of arms China can deploy. For example, it has been estimated that each J-10 costs less than 200 million yuan to make. Therefore, it will cost some 20 billion yuan to deploy 100 J-10. If China increased it military budget by 200 billion yuan a year and increased its allocation to the air force by 80 billion yuan per year, then by spending some 40 billion yuan China can deploy more than 200 J-10 a year. And if on the average the other 4th and 5th generation fighters cost some 200 million yuan each, then China can deploy some 200 4th and 5th generation fighters. And if with increased production and continuing advancement in technologies the economies of scale can reduce the cost to 100 million yuan per 4th and 5th generation fighter, then the number of 4th and 5th generation fighters can be increased by some 400 per year per year. This means that by 2015 China could have deployed some 2,000 to 4,000 more advanced fighters.
If some 30 billion yuan a year can be used to deploy more missiles of all types then assuming each DF-21D costs 20 million yuan then 200 of them will cost only 4 billion yuan. And if each DF-31A ICBM costs 50 million yuan then 200 of them will cost only 10 billion yuan. And if cruise missiles cost some 10 million yuan each then China can deploy some 1,600 of them per year. So by 2015 China could add some 2,000 DF-21D, 2,000 DF-31A, and tens of thousands of cruise missiles of all types.
And China could also use some 40 billon yuan to build more war ships of all kinds such as nuclear attack subs, nuclear missile subs, aircraft carriers, etc. For example, if each nuclear attack sub cost some 10 billion yuan, then it could easily build 10 by 2015 by increasing the number produced by 1 each year. That is, it can produce 1 nuclear attack sub in 2013, 2 in 2014, etc. And by 2020 China could easily have deployed some 55 nuclear attack subs or near parity with the US who has some 60 nuclear attack subs.
And if it increases its military budget by some 200 billion a year then it can increase the number of planes, ships, tanks, etc. build every year. This means that it is perfectly easy for China to equal the arms of America by 2020. And if China’s economy reaches 100 trillion yuan in 2020 and it spends some 2.5% of GDP for military it can spend 2.5 trillion yuan per year. And if the exchange rate is some 4 yuan per dollar then China’s 2020 military budget would be some $600 billion or more. That would be about the same as the American military budget.
Once China achieved some 3,000 advanced fighters and 100 nuclear attack subs it is safe from attack by all China’s enemies combined. And with 10 or more aircraft carriers China can easily help any of its allies anywhere in the world. This would be a significant milestone is China’s resurgence. Of course, China’s military would not stop here. China’s economy will ultimately achieve some 300 trillion yuan and some $100 trillion on an exchange rate of 3 yuan per dollar (2011 PP) by 2040. At which time, China’s economy will be some 5 to 6 times bigger than America’s economy depending on America’s population and its technological advancement. Therefore, China can easily afford 2% of GDP or some 6 trillion yuan and $2 trillion for its military budget (2011 PP). This would be some 2 to 3 times bigger than the American military budget and bigger than all the rest of the world combined. China could deploy 10,000 advanced fighters, hundreds of nuclear attack subs and dozens of aircraft carriers to overwhelm the rest of the world. Of course, China is a peaceful nation with a history of peace and harmony. With its dominant military power it will use it for maintaining genuine peace so that the whole world can live in justice and prosperity.
The West and their allies are demonizing China to trick it into demilitarizing unilaterally. Once China is demilitarized it will be vulnerable again to attacks like in the last 200 years since the first opium war. Therefore, China needs not apologize for arming itself adequately to defeat all potential enemies. It must also be strong enough to defend its allies so that it can maintain its supplies of energy, minerals, foods, etc. from foreign countries as far away as Africa and America. If the West accuses China of being a threat, China should just ask them, “So what?” China had been and still is being threatened by the West and its allies. China’s sovereign territories are being invaded and occupied right now. The West is not helping China to gain justice but is in every way trying to help others attack China. Therefore, China must militarize as fast as possible and brush aside the demonizations of the West, Japan, India, and the toady allies. In the end, in the absence of justice in the world, China can only rely on its powerful military to safeguard its security. No apologies necessary. If the West felt threatened, then they just have to suck it up.
ACT
Interesting argument, Liang1a,
however, that peace would be peace with the barrel of a gun pointed at the head of the world, not peace through mutual cooperation; the whole world would simply form alliances with the United States or another local power against China, rightfully fearful of what it could and might do. your argument also hinges on the idea that Chinese GDP and technology will continue to advance at a set rate. You also assume that the United States will lose its technological edge (it sort of has already–just look at the F-35 and F-22: the former has a problem with it’s VTOL system and the latter has a problem with its oxygen system, and both are overpriced).
While there is no doubt in my mind that–as a Citizen of The United States–that the US also has “a gun pointed at the head of the world”, the difference is the willingness to use it”; while the US HAS gone off on stupid adventures, the US has for the most part acted only when there was a credible threat. China, on the other hand, has invaded or attacked other countries with little or no provocation in general (see taiwan, tibet, vietnam, india).
John Chan
@ACT,
It seems you have won $100 already, 50’s style propaganda is filled in your comments; such as American’s aggression is siding the weak, but China’s self defense is an invasion or attack other countries with little or no provocation.
Here is some 50’s style propaganda the USA did, they reflected in your comments clearly.
1. Engineering consent and to create a sense of fear and confusion amount the community in order to destabilize the region and create a favourable environment to wage war as just cause.
2. It does not matter whether it is true or not, image is everything, lose the image the game is over. That’s why USA media is relentlessly pumping out toxic anti-China rhetoric to demonize China.
3. American is setting up merits to claim moral and propaganda victory by measuring who has more people on his side, and who is more advance in science, technology, etc.
4. USA claims it always fight just war, even the war is provoked by the USA with excuse fabricated from thin air.
If you could claim you are the rational and peace loving one in your nation, who needs warmonger to fan the flames of war.
ACT
@john chan
i never really attempted to claim the moral high-ground. i merely stated facts. that’s why i said that the united states has MOSTLY acted in self-defense against PERCEIVED threats. And please do enlighten me: how was invading vietnam self-defense?
John Chan
@ACT,
China did not invade Vietnam. Vietnam was invading China and eradicating Chinese living in the border areas for years with the weapons they got left behind the USA and encouraged by the USSR.
China has to stop the Vietnamese aggression in order to provide a possible living condition for its people living in the border area, so China took action to clear up those rogue Vietnamese warmongers. Once the clear job was done, China withdrew its troop back to its own territory.
If you can turn a self-defence action into an accusation of aggression, no wonder USA is calling China’s wish to expel squatters on the China’s islands in the South China Sea as aggressions too, so that USA can expand its imperialism in the SCS in the name of siding the weak.
Reason
@ Linang1
You’re an idiot
Who is going to build all this stuff?
High tech defense isn’t just about throwing money at it.
You need skilled people to build them
Why don’t you take some time out of your Chinese wet-dreams and find out about what it really takes to make a high-tech defense industry? It’s not just about GDP and making more and more money.
Jack Steward
What happen to the moderator?
This blogging space has degenerated to its lowest form, with blogger calling other idiots??
If you can’t make an intelligent comment,Reason, take leave and have a cold shower.
John Chan
@Reason,
The German’s biggest worry is the number of scientists and engineers that China is going to have. German can use their superior automation to beat China’s low labour cost advantage in the manufacturing, but they cannot beat China’s low labour cost advantage in R&D, because R&D is labour intensive, of course unless you believe “only the West can invent, and only the West can succeed.”
Most advancements in R&D do not need genius like Einstein, but a lot of smart guys doing tedious hard work, that’s what China has. Besides from the genius invention to the commercialization takes years and a lot of smart guys to make it happen, the final fruition of the genius invention most likely will not be in the nation where the invention occurs. It is the final fruition counts for a nation’s strength, not the original idea.
Reason, you need to get that “only the West can invent, and only the West can succeed.” delusion out of your mind, so that you will not need to live in despair.
Reason
Firstly – calling someone an idiot for writing nonsense is not “the lowest form of blogging”
An idiot is actually a perfectly acceptable adjective to describe someone who is being utterly ridiculous
Secondly, no one is saying that China can’t innovate – what I’m saying is that there are limiting factors that prohibit military and high tech innovation which Liang1 seems to be oblivious to
For sure, China is innovating its military technology – we’ll see the fruition of this ‘innovation’ once the CCP gets its machines of war rolling. My bet is that most of the RD money is going into the back pockets of cadres to support their mistresses. Which is a real limiting factor.
I have many friends doing PhDs in China and it is a FACT that many of the professors choose their candidates based on their ability to pay them and more disturbingly their ability to be “good students” and comply with the professors carnal needs – or in other words – many professors choose girls over boys, especially those girls who are willing to lend a friendly hand to get some better marks.
Don’t even brother denying that this isn’t true CCP acolytes cus, I know it to be true across the entire university system.
This is on top of the entire university system being plagued with rampant plagiarism
Hardly a system designed to maximize innovation.
So… John Chan – I’m sure, no, I know that there are exceptional Chinese out there doing fantastic work… but for everyone of these there are hundreds of professor-groupies and crooked professors who are just joy riding the system and the more money the Chinese government throws at R&D the more they’re gonna take.
That is the reality of R&D in China – for every dollar that is spent on real innovation, hundreds are being wasted and stolen
Chouling
@Reason, I can’t say I like you or I can agree with your on a number of things. However, regarding your comments on the corruptions in the higher education institutions and the PLA high ranking officers, yes it’s a major problem in China. It’s not that China doesn’t have the best and the brighest, but the political system and its so corrupted leadership, officials have prevented the advancement of China’s R&D. Motor engine development is one of the typical issues which can be used as a good example.
The poor quality products and R&D will be the down fall of China’s economy as well as any military adventure by the PLA.
John Chan
@Chouling,
Like most pro China posters here, I am not against criticisms against China, given the pressure, danger and problems it faces, as long as they are not done in vicious or schadenfreude kind of ways.
Arbitrary labelling China’s products and R&D poor quality then linking your fabrication to the conclusion of the down fall of China’s economy and military operation is surely schadenfreude and mean spirited.
Chinese products always provide super value (quality/price) that no nation in the world can match, that’s why China’s export grows so big. It’s sad you cannot feel proud what China has achieved.
Chouling
@John Chan,
Can you back up your fabrication? The only thing I read so far from you, is you have always blindly painted the CCP and their ruling clan as your God and Made-In-Heaven stuff. You seem making up lots of things for them, you lied for them and probably will sell your wife, family and daughters for them.
I lost my virginity to a Professor before being selected to a PhD program. Despite my hard work and studying efforts, do you know how many times did I have to sleep with the Professors before they let me receive my PhD? Have you ever worked in a PLA’s R&D establishment? One thing for sure, all your fabrications and make ups stories will be falling apart. Please read the links just to get a hints on the real problems we have in the Father land!
Female-graduate-student-bribed-70-year-old-professor-with-sex-for-phd-admission
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/08/19/female-graduate-student-bribed-70-year-old-professor-with-sex-for-phd-admission/
Poor quality of Jet engine
http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/chinese-avic-top-head-admits-the-poor-quality-of-jet-engine.html
If you want to, let me pass on to you and the World some of PLA’s extremely poor quality results of the latest missiles development.
John Chan
@Chouling,
I only can assume you are a real person telling a real story, not an anti-China neocon conducting smear campaign to undermine China like in the cold war.
It may sound harsh, but you have the same westerner’s not-me mentality, it is always somebody’s fault. I can tell you one thing that is different between the Chinese and westerner, particular the Anglo-Saxon, it is their individual integrity, they are willing to pay very high price to fight for their individual integrity, that’s why westerners very seldom encounter the disgraceful abuse you revealed, because the professors know they have to pay very high price too if they try. The rotten professors in China know they are taking no-risk advantage, because the victims are either accomplice or collaborators. The deal making mentality in Chinese universities encourages and nurtures those morally bankrupted rotten professors abusing everyone under his domain recklessly.
PhD is for science research not 科舉進士, if one can get his prospective correct, then tragedy you mentioned won’t happen.
It is the same story in the West, professors like to take Chinese as PhD candidates, because they are good quality labour and can be abused. Unfortunately for the overseas born Chinese, they have western integrity spirit, but are mistaken as Chinese from Asia and mistreated like the Chinese from Asia. A lot of them rather give up the degree instead of being compromised like you.
Hundreds of Millions of unknown Chinese gave up their lives for the independence of China, if they were like you 笑貧不笑娼, China will still be in the era of Unequal Treaties, China will be abused and exploited as a semi-colony by the so called civilized predatory imperialist Westpac nations in the name of western superiority.
Perhaps the most important question you need to ask now is do you feel it is your turn to collect dividends on the next victim, since you have paid the price and got your degree, and continue to spread the Stockholm Syndrome disease? Or do you want to be one of the unknown Chinese scarified for your nation?
John Chan
@Reason,
It is true the problems you described exit in China plus some even worse; those problems are larger proportion in China than other places. They will be corrected gradually just like the early stage of high education in the USA which took hundred some years to weed out the dead beats. If you have gone thru postgraduate systems in the western nations as a Chinese, I can guarantee you that your contempt with Chinese high education system is unfair and prejudice.
Deng expected only 5% of overseas graduates returning to China to participate in the nation building, together with a minor percentage of uncorrupted Chinese from local high education, they have built China to current achievement. If the utility rate of talent and resource improves from that basis, the advancement of China only can accelerate. In 2011 China has surpass USA as world largest patent registrant, it proves the German worries correctly despite large portion of Chinese high education is bad.
Your comment just proves that you and westerners do not understand China and its calculations, because the westerners are small nations and their scope of view is small too. As nearly all anti-China bloggers demonstrate here, they use their pinhole evidence to extrapolate to the whole China, which is bigger than the whole Europe and USA put together; they just cannot appreciate that Chinese are working on scale different from theirs.
Khalid Arab
Why was my comment calling “Reason” an “idiot” censored?
Reason
@Khalid Arab
How awful that your thread stating I’m an idiot was censored?
Why not elaborate more – remember idiot is a perfectly acceptable adjective – but the expletives that surrounded it were probably banned
vector
China has always emphasise freedom of navigation on the high seas.The article is therefore a distortion of China position.China only claim the seabed as sovereign territory.All navigation can pass through peacefully as far as China is conerned.The article distorts the actual position envisaged by China.
DownRedChina
@Jack Steward:
What do you call “idiot”?
SCdad07
If Jack forgot, include yourself.
DownRedChina
Liang1a = idiot
SCdad07 = Liang1a
Therefore, SCdad07 = idiot
BpSitRep
No nation, no Government, at any time in history, has ever ‘built’ up it’s ‘army’ without the intent of using it to further it’s own National goals. This will be the path of the PRC as well. Interesting photo that the PLA has already switched to ‘digital’ camouflage battle dress for it’s ground forces. Not that everyone else over the World is already going ‘digital’ patterns, but even with the PLA doing so shows their intent of keeping abreast/ahead of everyone else.
Webster0105
I fear this may be an ecological fallacy (increasing defense spending = increased aggressiveness)
For one thing, we don’t know how much of that increased spending is due to inflationary pressures…
Also, the fact that they undertaking a modernization of their forces is significant…it would be one thing if China already had a huge modern force and spending this money. But quite another in the given scenario…
Does increased spending actually correlate with confrontations (historically)?
venkat s .kanakamedala
china is a threat to peace in Asia and to the world.china economy and military are threat to all free nations in Asia and to the world.china is annexed and nexus with few other nations whose interests are not good .these nations are Pakistan,north Korea,Iran and may be a couple of other nations.how to counter china.all nations in Asia and the world should not buy Chinese goods.second it should be isolated globally.third the America,NATO and other allies should unite to counter and deter china .America and NATO should help India to counter the china in two fields.one is economically and second in defense.America and NATO should install TMS,DMS AND MISSILE CARRIERS IN ASIA.
Reason
@applesauce
Oh dear applesauce – once again – a complete lack of historical knowledge backed up by erroneous figures
“roughly 2 PVA deaths for every one coalition death.” Really – so, the PVA only lost 100,000 men KIA in the Korean campaign? No one but the CCP is saying that.
You said [Japan} “was never able to venture father than Manchuria and the coastal areas. ”
So…………What do you call Operation Ichigo ? A coastal skirmish….????
So Applesauce, quickly go and look up Ichigo on wikipedia and try and justify how fighting in Hunan is coastal – and don’t forget, Japan was fighting the US in the Pacific at this time as well
applesauce
@ reason
1. no you clearly did not understand me, i did not say 2 to 1 vs the usa alone but 2 to 1 against the entire coalition, ~200,000 coalition deaths vs. ~400,000 PVA deaths. these are american genrated figures, chinese figures says 152,000 dead people here would never accept that.
2. the pacific war being a primaritly naval war did not require anywhere near the number of men needed to fight china(~4 million plus 900k collaborators), and yes the japanese made efforts into central china but was never truly able to consolidate, and when i say coastal i was using the word liberaly, the maximum extent of japanese control -> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Japanese_Empire2.png
anyhow the point is japan was not able to fight china wherever when ever and win otherwise the war would have been over in 6 monthes as they claim and it clarly went on for longer than that.
Reason
CCP figures on their own history just aren’t credible – this is from the same party that is still in absolute denial over the death in the Great Leap forward – despite books like Tombstone, written by a Chinese person on the Mainland with full access to primary source material corroborating the high death toll.
It’s just one huge denial after the next for the CCP on figures
And regarding your understanding of what was happening in WW2 – that is even less credible.
You clearly said that the Japanese had only control over Manchuria and the Coast – which isn’t even close to the reality of the situation on the ground –
But just like any commie supporter your terms are flexible … “Arh, when I said the coast, I actually also included, Henan Hunan and Guangxi.”
Get out of here….
Yet another CCP supporter with no knowledge of history talking the talking
applesauce
@reason
1.
right, but like i said, the 2 to 1 figure is from the US calculations, therefore what is your arguement against what i said?
the chinese figure would be more like .75 to 1 which i also dont believe in.
2.
how about you get out of here, the map i showed you clearly indicated the Japanese consolidated(key word) the areas by the coast and yes some areas of the inland, but was largely unable to push any further despite total aerial and naval supremacy. i will concede, perhaps just simply say the Manchuria and the coast was not appropriate
in addition you clearly did not even understand the point of my statement which was to say the Japanese could not take on china where ever and whenever they wanted and win
John Chan
@Reason,
Even at the high of the Fascist Japanese invasion in China, they only could control certain points (big cities). They ventured out under the support of vast number of collaborator forces in the day, and rushed back to the bases before dark, because their equipment and supply were sought after by the local warlords/freedom fighters/guerrillas. If the Japanese stayed out, even the collaborator force could swallow them up for their equipment and supply then changed side.
Reason you know nothing about China, other than trolling endlessly in according some creative revisionist history fabricated by the so called fancy westerner scholars.
Reason
Thanks John, for pointing out the problem that all hostile armies throughout history have faced – subjugating the population – you’re bang on correct that while having a free reign to move around a major portion of China, NOT JUST THE COAST – Japan did not have the resources to impose absolute rule on the Chinese masses – probably something to do with fighting the US – but maybe not seeing as applesauce seems to think Naval wars don’t absorb a countries resources. Plus, Japan wasn’t in China to make a Chinese utopia, they were there to take resources to strengthen their home country – which they did mostly unhindered by either the CCP or the KMT.
No doubt you understand this seeing that the CCP has still yet to subjugate the people in it’s conquered lands either – Tibet and Xinjiang – but extracts the resources at leisure
Finally – You really rounded this little thread off nicely, proving that once a CCPer says something, they can’t admit they’re wrong – even if the evidence overwhelmingly points to the opposite.
By any definition a substantial chunk of China was conquered during WW2. On top of this, both the Nationalists and the CCP were deemed so irrelevant that major operations in China were aimed at disrupting the American’s supply lines – overwhelming the two Chinese armies had become mostly academic to the Japanese, who had long before known that the two would prefer to be scheming against each other rather than actually doing what they’d told the people of China – and fight the invaders!
Certainly, Mao in Yan’nan needed the Japanese so that he could sell opium to the people in the cities controlled by the KMT in order to buy better weapons and keep the CCP economy afloat.
What a fantastic leader – Let’s hear it for Chinese Revolutionary opium! – HOORAH!
Sold to the people, supported by the invaders – so as to bring Communism to the masses! What a glorious history the CCP enjoys!
John Chan
@Reason,
It is nice fabrication of history, is it a demonstration of how the West rewrites history with their creative revisionist writing?
Now you have told lies about China, do you think it is fair to let me return the same favour to your nation?
Reaosn
John, these aren’t lies.
You’re in denial my friend
John Chan
@Reason,
You presented a creative revisionist version of China history to suit the predatory imperialist Westpac’s need for just war against a peaceful China, it is the same old trick the predatory imperialist Westpac used in the cold war.
Wrongfully labelling other bloggers in denial is another example of American Exceptionalism, whatever the American said must be taken as given truth, anybody questions the validity of such setup is in denial.
Liang1a
http://www.junshijia.com/article/201202/92880.html
激流涌动:中国高层主战意图占上风!
Translation:
Rapid currents churning and roiling: China’s high level war faction gaining upper hand!
更新时间:2012-02-20 12:14 发帖于:军情观察
一些媒体尤其是平面媒体,此前一直都在刊登一些有利于和平和谐的文章;不论怎么刊登,其宗旨只有一个,那就是中国现在发动战争还不是时候,别的国家对中国的挑衅和军事刺激,还没有达到战争的临界点。
Translation:
Some media especially plane media have been always publishing articles favorable to peace and harmony. No matter how they published, their purpose has been just one which is it is not time for China to go to war. The challenges and military provocations directed against China by other countries have not reached the critical level to justify war.
但是随著一些国家从过去的偷偷摸摸到现在的明目张胆的针对中国的军事行动之后,一些平面媒体,也开始寻找一些激进的言论,而开战的声音,也慢慢的出现了。
Translation:
But as other countries have changed their covert operations against China to one of overt and open military action against China, some plane media are beginning to find some militant expressions and the voice for declaring war is slowly appearing.
这说明了对于战争的迫在眉睫,很多人都有了清醒的认识。也就是说,战争从来就没有走远,反而逐渐的迫近了。
Translation:
This clarifies that the imminence of war is being recognized by many people. In other words, war has never been far away. On the contrary it is coming nearer.
这种认识,已经从高层的过去和平发展的谈话,慢慢的过度到对战争危险的充分认识上了。但是实战还是和的问题,从来就是中国历朝历代最大的问题。
Translation:
This recognition has progressed slowly from the peaceful development talks in the past to fully recognizing the danger of war. But peace or war has always been the biggest problem of China throughout its many past dynasties and eras. ==============================================
It appears that the high level Chinese government is slowly turning from the single minded pursuit of peace at any price to one that is willing to go to war to protect China’s security and sovereignty. Some of this have been demonstrated by the increasingly more uncompromising tone of the Chinese media especially in such places as peopledaily.com or Global Times which are semi-official government media and reflect the sentiments of the Chinese officials at the highest levels. The recent speculation by an article published by Wall Street Journal about the possibility of the Chinese government’s
increasing the military budget by 100% by 2015 is another indication that the Chinese highest leaders are now disposed to accept war as a possibility.
I’ve always said that China must be peace loving. But no matter how much China loves peace it must still defend its sovereign territories. It is foolish to protect China’s sovereignty by relying on the goodwill of China’s traditional enemies. It would be like sheep looking for protection from wolves. In the end, the safest way to gain the security of China is by making it the strongest in the world. Even though China is till minimally developed as measured by its full potential, yet it is sufficiently developed to deploy a military second to none. China’s 2011 GDP in terms of yuan had reached some 47.2 trillion yuan. In PPP terms of 3 yuan per dollar this is some $15.7 trillion and bigger than America’s GDP of just $15 trillion. And while America can be expected to grow by 2% or less per year for the
next several years China can be expected to grow by at least 8% per year. Especially if China can shift away from wasteful exports to domestic development based on the urbanization of the farmers and the indigenous advancement of high technologies. And as China’s technologies advance to the highest level in the world and its economy become much bigger than the US it can easily deploy a much bigger and lethal military than the US. And when China has deployed such a powerful military nobody will dare to attack it for fear of being destroyed themselves.
Since it has become very obvious that the advanced countries of the world can no longer increase their import of Chinese products, China has no option but to develop its own domestic economy. And as China’s domestic economic development becomes the engine for its development the obsession with exports will cool and wane. The value of the yuan will quickly be increased and the excessive and undeserved profits given to the exporters will disappear. This means the reason for maintaining peace in order to maintain exports will disappear. In other words, China will be more willing to get off the “hegemonic American ship”. And China will be much less hesitant to go to war in the face of military challenges. In the end China will be much more secure for willing to fight. As one of China’s ancient military strategists had said, “好战必亡,忘战必危。” (Liking war will lead to certain destruction, forgetting war will lead to certain danger. – Shi Ma Doctrine of War.)
ACT
Liang1a,
i am at least glad that you believe, as i do, that China–if it wishes once again to be the light of the world–should invest in peace rather than war as a means of security. Here in the US, no one really talks about war with China. It’s what the United States Armed Forces calls “a bottom drawer issue”; in other words no one is expecting it to happen, and it’s the lowest tier priority for the military. Still, the rhetoric here is slowly beginning to ramp up… if you’ve seen the comments of Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney, assuming that you follow US politics, they’ve both been critical about those of you who live in ZhongGuo, calling your nation a “currency manipulator” and such.
I don’t believe that either of our nations should fan the flames of war, but it seems that both of our nations are beginning to make both overt and covert moves towards such an outcome; for all the news lately, it would seem that we’re slowly slipping into another Cold War…or did the first Cold War ever truly end?
anyway, i’d like to make a bet: $100 to the first person who sees 50’s style propaganda come up on TV again, in either of our nations regarding the “opposing nation”. I’ll be watching this closely, for sure.
Liang1a
ACT wrote:
February 21, 2012 at 12:34 am
Liang1a,
i am at least glad that you believe, as i do, that China–if it wishes once again to be the light of the world–should invest in peace rather than war as a means of security. Here in the US, no one really talks about war with China. It’s what the United States Armed Forces calls “a bottom drawer issue”; in other words no one is expecting it to happen, and it’s the lowest tier priority for the military. Still, the rhetoric here is slowly beginning to ramp up… if you’ve seen the comments of Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney, assuming that you follow US politics, they’ve both been critical about those of you who live in ZhongGuo, calling your nation a “currency manipulator” and such.
I don’t believe that either of our nations should fan the flames of war, but it seems that both of our nations are beginning to make both overt and covert moves towards such an outcome; for all the news lately, it would seem that we’re slowly slipping into another Cold War…or did the first Cold War ever truly end?
anyway, i’d like to make a bet: $100 to the first person who sees 50’s style propaganda come up on TV again, in either of our nations regarding the “opposing nation”. I’ll be watching this closely, for sure.
=============================
Liang’s response:
Up to last year I had been advocating that China deploy no more than 2,000 nuclear warheads in total. But now I’m advocating it deploys the same number as America and Russia which is 6,000. I also advocated that China spends no more than 1.5% to 2% of its GDP on military. Now I advocate that the military spending be increased to 3%. This is in response of the increased threat against China from many countries mainly led or instigated by America. America’s demonization against China has never stopped. But previously it was nonconsequential things such as Tibet and human rights. Now America is overtly instigating the occupation of Chinese sovereign territories and increasing encirclement of China. This escalation of aggressions against China have obviously been noted by the Chinese people who now call for more rapid deployment of arms and more active response in terms of military actions. America can demonstrate its peaceful intent by withdrawing its troops from west of Hawaii. That is, America should withdraw its troops from S. Korea, Okinawa, Japan, Guam, etc. America should also stop its instigation of invasion of Chinese sovereign islands in the surroundning waters, especially in the Diaoyu Islands in the E. China Sea and the various archipalagoes in the S. China Sea. Then America can show itself to be friendly to China.
What American Republican presidential candidates say would not affect the resolve of the Chinese people to protect itself. The more the Americans demonize China the more the Chinese will feel offended and less disposed to think kindly of the Americans. The days when Americans can terrize China were long over, if they ever existed. The Chinese had fought the Americans in Korea and won under unfavorable conditions. Today the Chinese military is already on a par with the US and rapidly gaining ascendency. (Ultimaately China will be as powerful as 10 USSR. Would America like to face that kind of military opponent?) The reason why the Chinese are still willing to take the denigrations of the US is not because of fear of American military but because of the desire to make more profits through exports. But as I pointed out, China is no longer making rapid gains in profits from exports since American economy has gone into the toilet and not likely to recover any time soon. And as China shifts away from exports to domestic development, America becomes irrelevant to China. In any event many Chinese won’t tolerate the arrogance of the Americans under any conditions. It is only the shameless Chinese comprador class who are willing to sell out Chinese honor for their personal gains.
In the end, the ill will comes entirely from the US. China had suffered greatly from American aggressions even after China had helped it defeat the Japanese in WW2. Now China is helping America by keeping it afloat economically. But China gets nothing but demonizations from America. Enough is enough. If you or anybody else in America want to improve relationship with China then do as I said above and withdraw your troops from west of Hawaii and stop encircling China. Lastly, China’s militarization is not entirrely directed at the US but against many of its aggressive neighbors such as Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, India, etc. But if the US wants to arms race with China then by all means do your worst. And by worst I mean run your economy even further into the toilet by shifting hundreds of billions of dollars away from education, medical services, infrastructures, aids to small businesses, etc. and end up a second rate country like the former USSR.
Liang1a
One more thing to add, has anyone seen my tin foil hat? I last saw it when I was making Koolaid, please let me know
John Chan
@ACT,
It seems you do not know your nation very well.
USA is not a democratic society, and it never intends to be one. USA is a polyarchy. Republican and Democrat are essentially the same, their core policies nearly identical; Voters are only presented with very narrow cosmetic choices, therefore no matter who is elected American policy is the same, the dominance of the world since WWII. You can go back to review the American records since WWII. Different president may apply that policy differently only.
So citing Rick Santorum, and Mitt Romney are more hostile to China than Obama like citing a shotgun is more lethal than colt .45 to the head.
Mukesh Ewar
“And by worst I mean run your economy even further into the toilet by shifting hundreds of billions of dollars away from education, medical services, infrastructures, aids to small businesses, etc. and end up a second rate country ..”
Ha ha. The fall of the American Empire is nigh. Keep spending, man.
Liang1a
Liang1a
February 21, 2012 at 1:22 am
One more thing to add, has anyone seen my tin foil hat? I last saw it when I was making Koolaid, please let me know
===========================
The above was written by somebody else masquerading as me. Diplomat moderators should be alert to this and ban whoever is playing this kind of tricks.
ACT
@Liang1a and John Chan:
i’m somewhat amazed by your responses; you both took my words, and twisted them to suit your needs.
to Liang1a: It’s all a matter of perspective; i have no doubt that both of our countries produce volumes of propaganda regarding each other, attempting to influence public policy and international conditions. Nor do i deny what Japan did to Korea and to your nation; the use of “comfort women” and the Rape of Nanking were both horrific and are actions that will no doubt plague the Japanese for generations… I still don’t quite understand why the Japanese make such a fuss about admitting past wrongs and actually making reparations, but i believe that we are both of the opinion that there should be a public admission of what went on; even here in America, thousands of Japanese-Americans were imprisoned in internment camps during WWII over racial and espionage fears…we’ve made our apologies, why can’t they?
regarding South Korea: what is your opinion of the North Korea/South Korea Situation? my own personal feeling is that US support in Korea (however much it is or is not resented and regardless of whether or not it is necessary) at least keeps things stable. As i understand it, your nation, ZhongGuo, supports and uses North Korea as a buffer zone against what in your perspective is western aggression. In other words, each of our nations supports one side or the other and is willing to intervene should either of the two Korean nations do something terribly stupid, such as resume the war… if the US were to withdraw all support from that area, all bets would be off. I suspect that the PLA would throw in their support behind an NK invasion in that case, too, in the name of “korean reunification”. I have no desire to see the south korean people chafe under the cruelties that the Kim dynasty has inflicted upon those of its own people who live outside Pyongyang.
Regarding Japan: I agree that the wishes of the Okinawan people should be listened to; i have read multiple reports of the goings on there, the rapes, accidents and so on and i agree that they are intolerable. If the Japanese want an alliance with the US then they should be more willing to host American soldiers in jointly owned bases rather than those that are the “property” of the American government. To continue, however, i would like to pose a question to you. If the United States left–completely pulled out, past Guam, all the way to Midway–what precisely do you feel that China would do to Japan? i am not asking you to recite the party line, as you so often have; i know that the injustices inflicted upon your people by the Imperial Japanese Army are intolerable… so i ask you now, do you honestly feel, judging by your observations of your own culture, that China would seek an eye-for-an-eye response? in other words, would China inflict those same injustices on Japan… would there be a “Rape of Hiroshima”?. If there is even a hint of that possibility, then US presence as a counterweight to the might of the PLA is well and truly justified. If not, then yes, Japan should be left to its own devices as they so wish.
Regarding the islands and archipelagos in the South China Sea: what are these territorial claims based on? is it a claim that dates back to, say, the Ming Dynasty? if not, then should not these islands be open to the benefit of all? why not share resources amongst all the nations in the area? the will to do so would definitely improve the prestige of your nation in the region, of that I am sure.
regarding American aggression: i cannot speak for the actions of my own nation at this present time; i have very little opinion on them save to say that the continued destabilization of governments and torture of extra-nationals on shoddy claims is wrong no matter the case, and should be stopped. As for more recent events, the American base in Australia is, in my opinion, most likely a move based–you are most likely correct–on the Truman doctrine of encirclement;
the view is–from what information i have–that ZhongGuo is both a known and unknown quantity.
The most apt comparison i can make is–i apologize in advance–the rise of Nazi Germany: both China and Germany went through terrible times at the hands of foreign powers whose only objective was to do as much damage as possible economically, socially and physically in order to satisfy their own egos and the need for money, power or revenge. For China, this was the 100 year humiliation that only truly ended with Deng Xiaoping’s economic reforms. For Germany, it was the Treaty of Versailles.
In the case of Nazi Germany, the Allied powers were well aware of the build up of Germany’s Army as well as its modernization that far outstripped their own. Unwilling to risk war, the Allied Powers dithered as they were forced to give up the land of other countries to satisfy Germany’s revenge; all the while, Germany’s leaders promised that there would be no war, that Germany offered only peace and prosperity. Eventually, led by the thirst of its leaders for revenge, Germany lashed out at its former tormentors, visiting upon them the hell of occupation and genocide, rendering all those promises as moot as the lies they were.
The fear, Liang1a, is that China is much the same. Still burdened by an ever present past of humiliation and abuse by foreign powers, the fear amongst those whom your nation calls neighbors is that your nation, ZhongGou, will–like Germany–continue the build up unopposed, waving flags of peace while hiding a dagger behind its back. The fear is, Liang1a, that those islands your nation calls its own by sacred right is but the first step.
“How long might it take?”, they ask, before it is their nation that ZhongGuo calls its sacred territory ?
“How long will it be”?, they wonder, before a high-tech China boasting technology a decade or more in advance of the rest of the world unleashes its armies to conquer in the name of “peace”, “prosperity”, and a “righteous, kingly reign”, but bent on revenge for all those injustices?
“How many years from now?”, they ask, before Chinese soldiers march down the streets of Singapore, the streets of Seoul, the streets of Hanoi, or even the streets of London or Washington D.C?
Think long and hard about these questions, Liang1a and John Chan. I ask them not to insinuate or outright say that your country will do these things, but merely to state what goes through the minds of those men and women who have recently allied their nations with the United States, those whom you call “lackeys” and “lap-dogs”. They fear for their people and their nations, a fear that is–in their eyes–well and truly justified. They watched as children when your nation invaded Tibet. they watched as teenagers when your nation first fought with India. they watched as young men and women as your PLA invaded Vietnam, the very nation your people had sworn to assist and protect. They watched at the beginning of their legislative careers as the tanks of the PLA crushed the helpless bodies of the people–your countrymen–whom they were sworn to protect. They watched in their later years as your nation pointed ever more many ballistic missiles at Taiwan, your own sacred brothers and sisters, and wondered “when will they point the gun at us?”. For those reasons, they asked–and were not forced into asking–my country for help.
@John Chan: i know very well the policies of the presidents who have served their terms in my country. I know that they all took a too-harsh stance against communism and your nation. Nowhere did i imply that i was unaware of these policies. Please do not accuse me of being ignorant in that department.
DownRedChina
ACT wrote “The fear, Liang1a, is that China is much the same. Still burdened by an ever present past of humiliation and abuse by foreign powers, the fear amongst those whom your nation calls neighbors is that your nation, ZhongGou, will–like Germany–continue the build up unopposed, waving flags of peace while hiding a dagger behind its back. The fear is, Liang1a, that those islands your nation calls its own by sacred right is but the first step.”
China is marching the same path as Nazi German and imperial Japan did in 1920s and 1930s. Chinese leaders are perfidious, dishonest and wicked in nature. Deng Xiaoping advised his people “we must put up with America; we must conceal our ultimate goals, hide our capabilities and await the opportunity.” Whether it’s Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao or Xi Jinping, they are all the same. Their ultimate goals are to conquer the world set out by their Han Chinese ancestors. Chinese are very patient, they let you slap their faces in order to achieve their ultimate goals. A case in point Deng Xiaoping advised his people “Even if we had to put on a smiling face in order to please them, even if we had to give them the right cheek after they had hit our left cheek, we still must endure in order to further our relationship with the United States.” I noticed Xi Jinping constantly smiled while Biden jabbed him at WH dinner on piracy thefts, human rights and currency manipulation. Do we see the patterns? Xi Jinping came to Vietnam and Thailand before his trip to the US. He warned Vietnam and Thailand not being too cozy with the US. This guy could be China NEXT BIG professional liar.
China didn’t wage war yet it doesn’t mean China won’t. China didn’t have the capacities to do so. It’s sad that US is pumping money into China. China is using that money to build the war machines. China is working on anti-ship missile, the DF-21D aiming at our aircraft carriers. China also working missiles could target U.S. satellites. China’s war capacities are coming together nicely for them.
United States didn’t do enough to stop Nazi German and Imperial Japan in 1920s and 1930s. Learn from History or you will repeat the mistakes of the past. I promise you!
ACT
@Down Red China
i’m honestly insulted at your reply; you actually managed to lower yourself even further than John Chan and Liang1a: right now THEY look more sensible than YOU. Rather than using it to create something thought provoking or expand upon points that i stated, you used it to engage in the slander of politicians who are either not yet in positions of leadership, or who actually bettered their people. It doesn’t matter what their real intentions were, what matters is what they did. Deng brought his people back into “the light” and rescued China from implosion. For that he should be celebrated. I made the comparison between Germany and China to illustrate the fear that grips China’s neighbors, not the reality of the situation. For all we know, China may do nothing, and all our fears will–thankfully–have been for naught.
DownRedChina
Dear Mr. ACT,
Have you read this article “War Is Not Far from Us and Is the Midwife of the Chinese Century” http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html? I truly believe China is a real threat. I must admit you are much more diplomatic than me but hey I truly believe in what I said. Good day.
ACT
@DRC
i read the article you suggested on the epoch times. email me at firemagnet@hotmail.com …. it seems we have much to speak of.
John Chan
@DownRedVietnam,
Trolling baseless fabrications to incite conflict between the USA and China is not going to protect Vietnam from being abused by the USA like the old days between 1955-1975. If Vietnam is not careful, either Vietnam will become American butchering field or become part of China like the old days
DownRedChina
@Bloody Red China John Chan
“Trolling baseless fabrications” Please be specific.
United States involvement in Vietnam as well as in South Korean was a noble act against communist China and USSR expansion. “part of China like the old days” Did Vietnam drive out the Chinese invaders every time? Did you forget 1979 border war which Vietnam didn’t use the main forces? The results could have been much worse Johnny Chan.
I must admit the only things CCP are doing so well are killing its own people (70 millions under Mao and Deng ordered to crush peaceful protesters by tanks). You seem not knowing your own history at all. Learn from history or you will repeat the mistakes of the past. I promise you!
John Chan
@ACT,
There is nothing new in your questions that have not been used by anti-China clique as the excuses to contain China, all your questions and worries are consistent with USA national security council policy to contain and subvert China since WWII.
You stance as reflected by your comment can be concluded as following:
1. Engineering consent and to create a sense of fear and confusion amount the community in order to destabilize the region and create a favourable environment to wage war as just cause.
2. It does not matter whether it is true or not, image is everything, lose the image the game is over. That’s why you have to portray China as Nazi Germany to demonize China.
3. American is setting up merits to claim moral and propaganda victory by measuring who has more people on his side, and who is more advance in science, technology, etc.
4. USA claims it always fight just war, even the war is provoked by the USA with excuse fabricated from thin air. All your questions are to ensure the USA is on the Just side.
Your argument basically says, because westerners’ violent rise past, it is impossible for any other country rises peacefully, therefore it is the USA’s responsibility to impose its wills on everybody else by whatever means, because everybody else does not have the capability that the USA has.
Your thought is fundamentally flawed, you start with by defining all those nations hostile to China are innocent, therefore it must be China at wrong, then you proceed with eloquent presentations to prove China is at wrong; it is a typical circular argument, a self fulfill prophecy and a perjury. Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, India, etc. are not naive and innocent; they are the devil aggressors.
Why does USA have 12 aircraft carrier battles groups and tens of heavily armed bases surrounding China is a just cause, meanwhile China even does not have 1 aircraft carrier battle group, yet you already portray China as Nazi Germany for aggression? Are you saying China cannot defend itself? And China only deserves to be abused and exploited by the predatory imperialist Westpac like in the era of unequal treaties?
Why did the USA go berserk when Japanese bombed Hawaii, but you expect China to stand idly by when its territory is occupied by surrounding aggressors? Why do you require China to do something that the USA won’t do itself in order to satisfy your unreasonable quest for proof that China will rise peacefully?
Raising distorted narratives like Tibet, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Tiananmen Square as a pretext definitely is not a sign of looking for meaningful discussion, but to set the stage of advancing the interest of USA National Security Council.
ACT (firemagnet mode)
John Chan, you said
@ACT,
There is nothing new in your questions that have not been used by anti-China clique as the excuses to contain China, all your questions and worries are consistent with USA national security council policy to contain and subvert China since WWII.
Your stance as reflected by your comment can be concluded as following:
1. Engineering consent to create a sense of fear and confusion amongst the community, in order to destabilize the region and create a favourable environment to wage war as just cause.
2. It does not matter whether it is true or not, image is everything, lose the image the game is over. That’s why you have to portray China as Nazi Germany to demonize China.
3. America(n) is setting up “merits” to claim [a] moral and propaganda victory by measuring who has more people on their side, and who is more advanced in science, technology, etc.
4. USA claims [that] it always fight just war, even the war is provoked by the USA with excuse fabricated from thin air. All your questions are to ensure the USA is on the Just side.
Your argument basically says, because westerners’ violent rise past, it is impossible for any other country rises peacefully, therefore it is the USA’s responsibility to impose its wills on everybody else by whatever means, because everybody else does not have the capability that the USA has.
Your thought is fundamentally flawed, you start with by defining all those nations hostile to China are innocent, therefore it must be China at wrong, then you proceed with eloquent presentations to prove China is at wrong; it is a typical circular argument, a self fulfill prophecy and a perjury. Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, India, etc. are not naive and innocent; they are the devil aggressors.
Why does USA have 12 aircraft carrier battles groups and tens of heavily armed bases surrounding China is a just cause, meanwhile China even does not have 1 aircraft carrier battle group, yet you already portray China as Nazi Germany for aggression? Are you saying China cannot defend itself? And China only deserves to be abused and exploited by the predatory imperialist Westpac like in the era of unequal treaties?
Why did the USA go berserk when Japanese bombed Hawaii, but you expect China to stand idly by when its territory is occupied by surrounding aggressors? Why do you require China to do something that the USA won’t do itself in order to satisfy your unreasonable quest for proof that China will rise peacefully?
Raising distorted narratives like Tibet, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Tiananmen Square as a pretext definitely is not a sign of looking for meaningful discussion, but to set the stage of advancing the interest of USA National Security Council.
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In this case, the gloves have to come off.
i will respond to each of your points.
1. no matter who we are, we are all the products of our upbringing; this is as true for me as it is you. no one can escape the values, norms and mores that a society has imposed on them. As such, yes, you are correct in that my outlook has been shaped by US national security policy since WWII. I will not apologize for that.
2. I don’t have to demonize China (laughs), for china demonizes itself quite well, in fact. If you, chan, have been paying any attention at all to any news source other than the People’s Daily, i suspect that you will notice that Chinese generals have been steadily ratcheting up their rhetoric to the point that even people in China are concerned.
To me this indicates that the Gun is in control of the Party rather than the Party being in control of the Gun, to paraphrase Mao Tse-Tung. Or perhaps the party is getting sweaty palms and is about to drop the gun? Regardless, i made the comparison between China and Nazi Germany because they share similar situations, and–for all intents, judging by their histories–the same goal of regional or global hegemony; i do not think that China would be willing to slaughter six million japanese or tibetans or what-have-you. That kind of insanity is rather out of place in the CCP. Perhaps the comparison to the Japanese empire would be more apt though. I’ll explain why later, assuming you don’t skip over it as you have my disapproval of the actions of the United States and its armed forces in places such as Iraq, Okinawa, Cuba and other such places.
Let it be stated for the record that I disapprove of the designs of the United States as much as i disapprove those of China. I do believe i have the right to disapprove of my country’s practice of political destabilization and ill planned wars based on falsified evidence.
3. as i said before, this is not propaganda; as far as i have read from multiple, unbiased news sources, the islands in the SCS are disputed territory with multiple territorial claims established; the nations in that area fear that China will use force to assert its claims and turn to the United States so that they might use its military as a counter-weight to the PLA. Nowhere did i say that they were innocent or not guilty of their own crimes. Again, you have twisted my words to suit your own needs. Oh, and by the way, i can’t restrain myself from taking a hearty chuckle at your lovely use of the words “devil aggressors” in describing India, Vietnam, The Philippines and others….it lends oh so much authority to your argument, Especially considering that it was China that fired the first shot in the 1962 border war, regardless of the fact that border had been set by a rather boorish English politician named McMahon. It was also China that invaded India during that war, not the reverse as you so claim.
4. I, too, disliked the US war in Iraq; it was completely baseless and produced the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives to no benefit of either party (save, perhaps, the private contractors that the army employed en masse). No government or military ever fights a war believing that it is unjust; as for the questions that i proposed to you, i wanted you to engage in some personal thought outside of your regular Pro-China rhetoric. I will concede that China has the right to defend itself, but only insofar as invasions of territorial waters and the mainland. The islands of the South China Sea are, excepting the Parcel islands, not Chinese territory. Said claims are based entirely on the voyages of one Cheng Ho, the 15th century Sino-Muslim admiral who managed to sail all the way to the middle east. You are basing them on the claims of a dynasty and admiral more than four hundred years dead. Furthermore, the PRC has no official documents formalizing these claims. The voyage that you claim establishes your territorial legitimacy was, in fact, nothing more than an asia-wide sightseeing tour to enhance the knowledge of the empire. To quote Andrew Forbes of the Asia Wall Street Journal:
“…a detailed analysis of all known Chinese knowledge relating to the South China Seas during the 15th century–that is, during the one period when Chinese shipping traversed the region on a regular basis and made systematic surveys of the seaways–reveals no mention whatsoever of the Spratly Islands. Thus the question must arise, just when did these far-flung islets become “an integral part of the Chinese motherland”. What grounds are there for making such claims? Where are the proofs, the “incontrovertible historical evidence” on which China now bases its claims for hegemony in the South China Sea?
They may very well be there, locked in a museum cabinet or a university library somewhere on the Chinese mainland or, indeed, in Taiwan–which echoes China’s claims.
One thing is clear. If such documents do exist, now would be an excellent time to produce them. The people of Southeast Asia, justifiably worried by the unfolding scenario in the disputed Spratly Islands, deserve no less.”
of course, you and yours have become loudest now that there’s the economic independence that you so crave, namely oil and natural gas, in that region. if there’s anything that you and the PRC share in common, John Chan, it’s a stunning lack of facts with which you back up your arguments.
lastly–and i will state this for posterity–NO ONE HERE WISHES TO SUBJECT CHINA TO THE HORRORS OF THE UNEQUAL TREATIES AGAIN. NOT NOW OR EVER. nor did i ever say that the surrounding of China was a just cause; i honestly think this whole business of a new cold war is rather stupid. There is far more to be gained from mutual cooperation for both of our nations. The reason why mudsling at China so much is for this reason….wait for it…..i’m placing it in caps so that you don’t skip over it…
FOR A NATION THAT CLAIMS TO BE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, CHINA HAS TAKEN AN AWFULLY MISGUIDED STANCE OF AGGRAVATING EVERY SINGLE NATION WITHIN ITS PERIPHERY THROUGH MILITARY BUILDUP AND SABER-RATTLING, THE LATTER OF WHICH IS WHOLLY UNCALLED FOR. IF CHINA WISHES TO PROVE THAT IT IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD, IT SHOULD, IN THE LINE OF DENG XIAOPING, BECOME A MODEL WORLD CITIZEN THAT ADVOCATES PEACE ON ALL FRONTS AND USES ITS MILITARY SOLELY FOR SELF DEFENSE; IT SHOULD SHAME THE UNITED STATES THROUGH ITS MORAL UPRIGHTNESS. INSTEAD, CHINA HAS EMBARKED ON A RECKLESS CAMPAIGN OF PROVOCATION AND TERRITORIAL CLAIMS THAT MAKES IT NO BETTER THAN THE OPPONENT IT SO DESPISES.
ACT (firemagnet mode)
OKAY, massive edit time. i meant to say that China only has the right to defend its mainland.
Shio Matsumoto
Act, the truth about Okinawa is that we don’t want to be Washington and Tokyo’s sacrificial lamb. We abhor the thought of Chinese missiles raining down on our small little island with that bl**dy American Futenma base smack right in the middle of our town and island when the war begins. Let Washington take their base to somewhere where there are no citizens living nearby. Like Guam. Please get out, Yanks! Especially if you want to instigate wars in the East Asian region instead of your own backyard or on your soil. We will not be your collateral damage.
Varun
The article and the author is being disingenuous by not even ONCE listing the more important statistics.
Military Budget as share of GDP.
China is at 2.1% now and it will be around that in 2015.
Japan has constituitional limit at 1%, that’s their problem.
USA is at 4.8 and even India spends more than China currently at 2.7% of GDP.
Viet Tran
@Varun — maybe you dont understand basic numbers but if China’s spending on military spending is going to double by 2015 how will its defense spending stay at 2.1% of GDP? Unless you think China’s GDP is going to double by 2015 as well? Idont know anyone says that.
JohnX
Act wrote: Think long and hard about these questions, Liang1a and John Chan. I ask them not to insinuate or outright say that your country will do these things, but merely to state what goes through the minds of those men and women who have recently allied their nations with the United States, those whom you call “lackeys” and “lap-dogs”. They fear for their people and their nations, a fear that is–in their eyes–well and truly justified. They watched as children when your nation invaded Tibet. they watched as teenagers when your nation first fought with India. they watched as young men and women as your PLA invaded Vietnam, the very nation your people had sworn to assist and protect. They watched at the beginning of their legislative careers as the tanks of the PLA crushed the helpless bodies of the people–your countrymen–whom they were sworn to protect. They watched in their later years as your nation pointed ever more many ballistic missiles at Taiwan, your own sacred brothers and sisters, and wondered “when will they point the gun at us?”. For those reasons, they asked–and were not forced into asking–my country for help. ”
This is an excellent point. It is this concern that while China claims peace and negotiation, its naval and military troops are still being captured on fishing boats with high tech gear in waters that don’t belong to them.
The photos of ’supposed’ Chinese fishermen who would not be out of place in a military march through the streets of Beijing still appear in magazines and yet these fishermen are quickly released. If they were just criminals then why does the Chinese Govt. fight so hard for them and yet does not shy from arresting, charging and imprisoning foriegn criminals in China.
The crys of peace, peace from China do not build me with confidence as its actions that speak louder than words.
John Chan
@JohnX,
Claiming moral high ground will lead you to nowhere only continue generate troll endlessly.
JohnX
What did I say that was not factual.
Plus if it is claiming the moral high ground then there must be a place to stand and you don’t seem to disagree that China doesn’t hold the moral high ground by its actions.
I must admit that I am at times highly suspect that you are even Chinese as your comments and attitude do not reflect similar views from other Chinese I have met, rather the arrogance, the outright racism and verbal slander that you heap upon other commentators can in no way shed a good light upon China if you represent even the 5% of hardline China.
Your showing of intelligence in some of your most moderate posts shows that to continue to act and speak in an aggressive manner regardless of who is listening and to continue to promote violence against Chinas neighbors as you have done in other posts makes me question the veracity of your words or whether you are in fact supporting China.
Act may need to put on his firemagnet hat when he states his opinion on issues, mine is never off, but let me warn you that continuing on with your blatant attacks against anglo-saxons and westpac is never a good look regardless of its truths or lies as it makes you look as if you are either a reincarnated individual from the early 19th century or you are trolling.
I assume for some reason you are one of those unique individuals who seems to gain some kind of macarbe amusement from trolling, for that is how I think of you when I read your posts, because too many of them are too incredibly imaginative to be real.
Khalid Arab
The Diplomat now censors all supporting comments to Liang1a. What a snake.
ACT
@John Chan
actually, what @reason said to you about Mao selling opium to fund the CCP is true; it’s very well documented. This isn’t a lie, it’s fact; none of us here have the imagination to think up something as elaborate as that, and none of us would knowingly use false information to make our arguments here. If anything, what you are arguing against is the censorship within the CCP which is unwilling to further tarnish its own rather checkered past.
DownRedChina
If you Google “Mao selling opium to fund the CCP”, you get 303,000 results. John Chan probably says CIA kill 70 millions Chinese during the Cultural Revolution (he said CIA killed Chinese people in 1989 massacre in Tiananmen Square).
John Chan
@DownGreedyUSA,
Fabricate wild goose chase narrative is not going to make you more creditable, there are many bloggers have similar assessments about the soundness of your reasoning.
Only you said “(he said CIA killed Chinese people in 1989 massacre in Tiananmen Square).”
“1989 massacre in Tiananmen Square” is a fabrication by NYT, CIA, BBC in cooperation with other members in the Westpac black information network if did a proper search on Google instead of reading those junks.
It is mindless greedy Wall St. destroy millions Americans’ job and livelihood, and sent them to camp city in the middle of freezing winter. Creating wild goose chase narrative to smear China is not going to help those homeless Americans; it is equivalent to accomplice to public theft.
John Chan
@ACT,
You are commenting on the basis of American Exceptionalism, but Reason, DownRedChina, etc. are here to demonize China with insidious intent, that’s why they are commenting in vicious or schadenfreude kind of ways. Merely read DownRedChina’s posting here, only you will give their comments with any creditability.
ACT
@john chan
you said:“1989 massacre in Tiananmen Square” is a fabrication by NYT, CIA, BBC in cooperation with other members in the Westpac black information network if did a proper search on Google instead of reading those junks.
wait a second here…. so over 20 years of academic literature published in thousands of books is…wrong? i invite you to read the following books, since what you just said contradicts volumes of evidence from thousands of authors, photographers, newscasters and so on. What reason would the west have to fake a protest? none. Therefore, read these and witness one of the greatest lies ever sold by the CCP.
Author: Cheng, Chu-yüang.
Title: Behind the Tiananmen Massacre : social, political, and economic ferment in China
Publisher Boulder : Westview Press, c1990
Voices from Tiananmen Square : Beijing Spring and the democracy movement
Author: Mok Chiu Yu; J Frank Harrison; Paul Avrich Collection (Library of Congress)
Publisher: Montréal ; New York : Black Rose Books, ©1990.
Edition/Format: Book : English
The Broken mirror : China after Tiananmen
Author: George L Hicks; Motofumi Asai; et al
Publisher: Chicago : St. James Press, ©1990.
Edition/Format: Book : English
Beyond Tiananmen : the politics of U.S.-China relations, 1989-2000
Author: Robert Suettinger
Publisher: Washington, D.C. : Brookings Institution Press, ©2003.
Edition/Format: Book : English
The struggle for Tiananmen : anatomy of the 1989 mass movement
Author: Nan Lin
Publisher: Westport, Conn. : Praeger, 1992.
Edition/Format: Book : English
Quelling the people : the military suppression of the Beijing democracy movement
Author: Timothy Brook
Publisher: New York : Oxford University Press, 1992.
Edition/Format: Book : English
The legacy of Tiananmen : China in disarray
Author: James A R Miles
Publisher: Ann Arbor : University of Michigan Press, ©1996.
Black hands of Beijing : lives of defiance in China’s democracy movement
Author: George Black; Robin Munro
Publisher: New York : John Wiley, ©1993.
Tiananmen moon : inside the Chinese student uprising of 1989
Author: Philip J Cunningham
Publisher: Lanham, Md. : Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, ©2009.
Series: Asian voices (Rowman and Littlefield, Inc.)
Edition/Format: Book : Biography : English
Standoff at Tiananmen : how Chinese students shocked the world with a magnificent movement for democracy and liberty that ended in the tragic Tiananmen massacre in 1989
Author: Eddie Cheng
Publisher: Highlands Ranch, Colo. : Sensys Corp., ©2009.
Edition/Format: Book : English
you might have trouble getting some of them, but i encourage you to read them. If the CCP won’t let you import them, then why don’t you travel here and visit any library in the US, UK or Europe. You might get a new sense of perspective
ACT
to clarify further, John Chan, what you just said regarding the June 4th Incident was such utter, unadulterated and utterly stupefying BULLSHIT that it demanded a response, not for my sake, but for the sake of your own people who were cut down and violently suppressed as they called for a greater voice in their own country. That is how much the CCP, your own government, fears its own people.
John Chan
@ACT,
Here is your proof that Tiananmen Square Massacre did not happen, it was an elaborate handy work to destroy China by the predatory imperialist USA and it accomplice UK and other lap-dogs.
Just few click ob the Google you will get it all.
http://gregoryclark.net/page15/page15.html
http://tiananmenmyth.blogspot.com/
You nation is the source of all ills in the whole world.
BTW can I call Reason?
John Chan
@ACT,
BTW can I call you Reason?
DownRedChina
@John Chan and all CCP supporters
What do you think about ACT’s comment “…for the sake of your own people who were cut down and violently suppressed as they called for a greater voice in their own country. That is how much the CCP, your own government, fears its own people”?
In addition, CCP detained/house arrested 6 year old school girl. I’m speaking, of course, about the detention of Chen Guangcheng’s kindergarten-age daughter not permitted to leave the house and attend kindergarten. Until there was a public outcry, the authorities seemed perfectly happy to deprive the child of her education.
John Chan
@DownRedVietnam,
ACT comments are typical cold war rhetoric, nothing new; he probably is an old hand in the cold war.
About the 6 year old girl narrative is definitely a lie, because the blogger reiterates it is hiding behind an undescriptive screen name and refused to be accountable, such cowardice behaviour totally discredits such story.
DownRedChina
@John Chan
Sorry you can’t get away with this kind of trash mate.
“About the 6 year old girl narrative is definitely a lie”
Google “china detain house arrest 6 year old girl”, you get just about 18,300,000 results!
Read this article “Chinese activist’s daughter not allowed to go to school” http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/06/chinese-activist-daughter-barred-school to educate yourself. I asked you the same question about the same girl in another article at the-diplomat. You said china arrested the girl for her safety. Oh dear John Chan, my suggestion for you: stop spewing trash all over places, you spewed so much trash that you are confused which is truth and which is not.
ACT
@ACT,
China did not invade Vietnam. Vietnam was invading China and eradicating Chinese living in the border areas for years with the weapons they got left behind the USA and encouraged by the USSR.
China has to stop the Vietnamese aggression in order to provide a possible living condition for its people living in the border area, so China took action to clear up those rogue Vietnamese warmongers. Once the clear job was done, China withdrew its troop back to its own territory.
If you can turn a self-defence action into an accusation of aggression, no wonder USA is calling China’s wish to expel squatters on the China’s islands in the South China Sea as aggressions too, so that USA can expand its imperialism in the SCS in the name of siding the weak.
================================================================================
border area? you mean the Spratly Islands? that’s disputed territory and has been since WWII; it technically belongs to no one. As for the mistreatment of ethnic Chinese living inside Vietnam………from what i’ve read, the Hoa Chinese were effectively the ruling class within Vietnam up until 1979 when they–naturally–became the target of anti-bourgeois purges. While ethnic cleansing is wrong, how can you fault them for doing exactly what your own government did in the aftermath of its own civil war? they were not your own citizens; what the CCP did is effectively the equivalent of the “gunboat diplomacy” you chinese are so fond of: in the 1800’s, Chinese would kill whites and white Europeans would respond with a military slap to the face. What your people did 139 years later is no different or any less imperialist.
Once studied in Vietnam
@ACT
“…the Hoa Chinese were effectively the ruling class within Vietnam up until 1979…”
This is absolutely FALSE.
Even Hoa who were members of the Vietnamese Communist Party were ethnically cleansed after they had contributed to the country’s victory over the US. Hoa lived in the South were subject to open discrimination, Hoa businesses had to pay annual extortions to officials so they could be left alone to conduct businesses and worked in skilled trades (construction, electrical work, welding, tool and die making, etc) that the Vietnamese elites found it so beneath them to do. The little manufacturing that VN had was built by none other than the hard work and sacrifices of the Hoa. And what they did they get in return? Nothing but open discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Hoa were barred from civil service jobs, but the South VN government had no hesitation in conscripting them to extort money or to use them in battle fields as “I couldn’t care less if they die since they are just Ba Tàu”. Teachers and students in classes openly called Hoa students as “Ba Tàu” which is a derogatory term. Can you imagine that an Afro-American student in a US class is called openly by his teacher as in “Hey you Nixxxx, come up here!”
Despite all these odds, the Hoa persisted in their hard work and sacrifices. But in the end, the Vietnamese resorted to ethnic cleansing to once and for all rob the Hoa of everything; their possesions, their rights as Vietnamese citizens, their dignity as a human being and even their lives.
ACT
which is why i said “as far as i have read”
thank-you for correcting me, though you need not have done so in such a nasty manner.
ACT
As this is the case, then, John Chan is correct in saying that China was right to intervene. However, it still isn’t self-defense; it’s a humanitarian mission not unlike what happened during the 1991 Serbia conflict.
John Chan
@ACT,
You should go back to read your own comments, you have no hesitation bashing China derogatorily, and finding excuse to forgive the horrendous things done to China and its people; but when you get caught behaving dishonestly and badly, you blamed others mistreating you.
Indeed “Teflon” should be your title.
You accused China invaded Vietnam, yet you do not know what was happened in the border areas between Vietnam and China. You accused China Tiananmen Square Massacre yet you don’t know it was Westpac nations’ conspiracy to sabotage China’s sovereignty. So what do you know? No wonder USA has been screwing everybody up by bombing and killing in the believe their atrocity is for the victims’ good.
Reaosn
Thanks JC… but ACT is not me.
You can tell by the time of the postings…. I’m in China
Whereas you and ACT are in North America
John Chan
2012-02-22
@Reason,
Sorry for the mistake.
DownRedChina
@John Chan
The main reasons CCP invaded Vietnam were:
-Vietnam was cozy up with USSR and China didn’t like that. Vietnam had every right to do that. China had no business there.
-Vietnam invaded Cambodia which was a puppet regime of China. Vietnam invaded Cambodia for self defense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War. Cambodia military continued to assault Vietnam’s border regions. In January 1978, Kampuchean forces still held portions of Vietnamese territory and began overrunning Vietnamese outposts in Ha Tien Province. For the record, China is responsible for 1/3 Cambodian deaths.
What Vietnam did was noble and rightful.
“Vietnam was invading China and eradicating Chinese living in the border areas for years with the weapons they got left behind the USA and encouraged by the USSR.”
you need to back up your fabrication. Vietnam and China had thousand years of war. Can you name one, just one war that Vietnam invaded China?
ACT
@John Chan
teflon seems to be an odd nickname to give me, considering rondald regan’s career, but i’ll accept it nonetheless, if i have indeed earned that much infamy with you. Unlike you, however, i am not above admitting i was wrong from time to time; everyone makes mistakes. mine was not getting my facts straight on the issues between china and vietnam. “studied in vietnam” corrected me on that, for which i am thankful. I’ve also noted that i’m not necessarily consistent; alright no one is. I also have a right to defend myself and my opinions….
oh, and john chan? never once did i say that US actions in the world were tolerable. From whence you got that idea i am not sure, unless you are of the belief that everyone has to be a rabid sinophile like you?
John Chan
@ACT,
No one ask anybody to be a rabid sinophile. Like most pro China posters here, I am not against criticisms against China, given the pressure, danger and problems it faces, as long as they are not done in vicious or schadenfreude kind of ways.
Chinese bloggers are here to protest when China is portrayed unfairly, to rebuke lies told about China, to correct distorted facts fabricated for China and to clear smear painted on China.
Just your comments fit the above category.
Liang1a
To ACT:
Japanese atrocities:
The Japanese will not apologize because they think as long as they don’t admit to the crimes they have not committed them. This is childish in the worst sense of the word. In many ways the Japanese are still barbarians and need be taught a lesson to make them civilized.
N./S. Korea:
I think the sentiment of the CCP government is that N. Korea is a friend of China and is a buffer against foreign invasion into China especially from Japan and America as one had done it and the other had tried and only failed due to China’s vigorous intervention. If the US withdrew from S. Korea I doubt if China would support a N. Korean invasion of the south because there is no point for China. And I think the south would be able to take care of the north by itself. Frankly, China would like to see more economic development in N. Korea but refuses to do anything to intervene in the domestic operation of the N. Korean government. Personally, I would like to see N. Korea become more democratic and less of an absolute monarchy in disguise, especially one that is obviously incompetent.
Okinawa:
Okinawa is not Japan. At least not until Japan annexed it in the late 19th Century when it was part of China’s sovereign territories. It should have been returned to China along with Taiwan. It was a betrayal by the US and why China should never trust it. In fact many Chinese still claim Okinawa or Ryuku as part of China. It is my own personal sentiment that Ryuku must be returned to China. From what I understand many Ryuku people don’t want to be subjects of Japan. Nor do they want American bases there.
As to China exacting vengeance on the Japanese in kind, I don’t think so. I doubt nor do I support a whole scale slaughter of the Japanese in equal number of Chinese slaughtered by them. At this point in time I would settle for a sincere apology from the Japanese people and government and the imperial family in whose name the atrocities were committed. The Japanese should build an appropriate monument in Tokyo and Nanjing. Upon their completion the entire imperial family and the entire Japanese government should go there and kneel in front of the symbolic tombs of the Chinese victims and admit their guilt and remorse. Then there could be closure and both countries can go forward. Of course, the Japanese must also return all Chinese sovereign territories such as Ryuku as I mentioned above as well as Diaoyu Islands.
The Japanese have gained much from the Chinese culture. The Japanese traditional dress is patterned after the Han culture. Sitting on the floor is also similar to the Han era. Confucianism is of course a major part of Chinese moral and ethical philosophy. And half the Japanese written papers are in kanji or Chinese characters. There is no major differences between the two peoples. I had lived in Japan for some ten years so I know the Japanese up close and personal. They are drab and colorless people as opposed to the Chinese who are vigorous and colorful. The Chinese are far more individualistic and inventive than the Japanese. Given the opportunities the Chinese people will far surpass the Japanese in all aspects of culture, moral philosophy, economics, military, technologies, etc. Up to now people compare China unfavorably to Japan. But China has declined to its lowest point in its entire history due to the corruption of the Qing Dynasty. Even now China has surpassed Japan in many ways though it is but 1/8 developed. Going into the future China will simply grow by leaps and bounds while Japan will stay mired without much advancement.
S. China Sea:
I have written an article about S. China Sea. Please go to the following link:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/238054/thread/1309828533/last-1309828533/S.+China+Sea+-+possesstion+is+nine-tenth+of+the+law
The portion of S. China Sea that is China’s sovereign territories belongs to China exclusively. There is no need nor international precedence to share it with anybody. If China shared it with anybody then it would have lost its control of the islands and give up its sovereignty. Therefore, China cannot and must not share it with anybody.
Nazi Germany:
China is not Nazi Germany nor is it like any other countries in the world past or present. China is wholly unique with its own unique culture, history, philosophy, etc. It is impossible for China to launch a war of conquest against the rest of the world even when it reached the point of technologies and economy that could allow it to deploy such a powerful military. Why? Because Chinese are highly civilized compared to the Nazi Germans who were nothing but barbarians. There was a story about a Chinese military strategist by the name of Zhu Geliang. He led an army to southern China to subdue the natives who were attacking the southern regions of China. He captured the king of the natives 8 times and each time he asked him if he would submit to his king. When the native king replied that he would not, he let him go. After the 8th time the native king finally admitted that he was wrong and submitted to the benevolent rule of the Chinese king. So the south was pacified without major bloodshed and all became more prosperous afterwards. It is therefore nonsense to suggest that China would slaughter and terrorize neighboring countries into submission. China won’t attack anybody if they don’t attack China first. And even when they did attack China, it had only pacified them so that all can give in peace and prosperity.
At this point in time there is simply no Chinese plan to attack and invade any of its neighbors beyond reestablishing sovereignty over its lost territories. Specifically, China has no plan to invade Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Burma, Bhutan, Nepal, India, etc. But obviously, Zhang Nan currently occupied by India must be returned. The S. China Sea and E. China Sea territories must be returned. But beyond that there is no plan to attack anybody. All the talks of China’s attacking its neighbors are nothing but propaganda by Vietnam and Philippines who are two thugs who stole Chinese territories.
Chinese soldiers down the street of Singapore and Washington D. C.:
This is laughable. Nobody who knows anything about the Chinese would even think that this is in anyway possible. I keep telling you, the Chinese are not bloodthirsty barbarians but civilized people who value peace and harmony. The problem is that the Chinese have become too civilized and peace loving to the point where they have forgotten that sometimes it is necessary to use force to protect themselves. The Chinese will never march down the streets of any foreign capitals except in response to aggressions. These fears spring up in your own mind because you impose your own western models and behaviors onto the Chinese. But this is like pounding a square peg into a round hole.
Tibet is Chinese sovereign territories for hundreds of years.
Zhang Nan currently occupied by India is also Chinese sovereign territories for hundreds of years. China will take back Zhang Nan but has no plan to attack India itself. But obviously India must indemnify China for its war expenses in taking back Zhang Nan. Therefore, if India wants to avoid paying indemnity to China then it must give back Zhang Nan voluntarily and peacefully.
Taiwan is also Chinese sovereign territories. Even many in Taiwan want reunification with the mainland. Very few wants outright independence.
http://www.kmt.org.tw/english/page.aspx?type=article&mnum=114&anum=10442
If you go to the above link you will see an opinion poll of Taiwan people on the question of independence.
1. Public attitude toward Taiwan’s future
Declare independence immediately 12%
Declare independence later 13%
Maintain status quo forever 53%
Unification with the Mainland later 9%
Unification with the Mainland immediately 2%
So only 25% want independence with 11% wanting reunification. The vast majority or 53% want status quo forever. Currently, Taiwan is enjoying big economic benefits from China. And there is no fear of military actions to force reunification. However, it is my own personal opinion that it would be advantageous for Taiwan to nail down some concrete treaty with the mainland for conditions of unification such as 50 years or contingent upon mainland becoming democratic.
Did you know that Vietnam was so full of arrogance after the Vietnam War and having the USSR as its master that it attacked China? Yes, it attacked China and killed many Chinese on Chinese soil. Vietnam had also killed millions of ethnic Chinese in Vietnam following the Vietnam War. Most of the so-called boatpeople were ethnic Chinese who died on the sea. Vietnam is one special case in point where I would isolate it and reduce it to stone age for its continued aggression against China.
Your post is nothing but crude propaganda filled with nothing but falsehoods and lies dished out as innocent questions and solicitude for China’s neighbors. And frankly, I don’t for a moment believe in the kindheartedness of the Americans. You can’t even institute genuine democracy in your own country so how can you pretend to have nothing but concern for the people of Singapore to protect them from China. Lastly, do you know that 80% of Singaporeans are ethnic Chinese? The biggest fear of Singapore is not China but Malaysia and Indonesia. I would certainly welcome the protection of China against these two hostile neighbors.
ACT
i dare you to show me how anything i have said with regards to your response is a falsehood or a lie; i’ve based what i said on research via multiple websites and academic sources. The comparison to Nazi Germany was only in that they suffered similar conditions. Frankly, however, i am also of the view that both Nazi Germany and China have similar ultimate objectives, namely world hegemony. World hegemony is not something that is unique to eastern or western mentality, rather, it is a universal aspiration by any nation that firmly believes in its own national interests.
so, liang1a, i would advise that you do your research again before you talk about claims to the south china sea–which are based on the voyages of an empire more than 400 years dead–or claims of self defense (when it was china that opened formal hostilities in the 1962 border war)
ACT
@liang1a
in response to your rebuttal of my comments regarding Chinese soldiers in Washington D.C or et cetera: it doesn’t take a western mentality to invade other nations unprovoked; China did this in Tibet in the 1950s, and Japan did it to countless nations during the course of WWII. Cruelty to other human beings or the domination thereof is not a feature unique to western civilization. To claim that eastern civilization, especially chinese civilization, is some how innocent of this is to refute thousands of years of your own history: from the Qin Dynasty in the years BCE all the way through the Qing Dynasty that fell in 1911 AD, China was the instigator of violent repressions against other peoples or riven by internal strife; it constantly absorbed other peoples by force, using their invasions or migrations as excuses to invade and conquer the territory of would-be or perceived invaders. That pattern has not changed, and now you’re using it to justify expansion in the south china sea.
furthermore, why are you so obsessed with having territory “returned” to the PRC? i’d honestly like you to think about that one; you are, in effect, saying that the PRC has a right to land that was mapped by chinese, vietnamese and korean sailors in the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 14th and 15th centuries, the last being under admiral Zheng He. While you’re at it–and by that logic–why not make claim to Java and Sumatra? how about Mongolia?
I fail to understand why the PRC is so adamant about “reclaiming” the territory of the empire and legacy that it despised and tried to erase all traces of, other than the fact that the region now contains oil and natural gas–two resources that would enable China to gain energy independence and thus not only be able to dictate energy policy to its surrounding nations, but also remain immune to all the petty little squabbles out in the middle east. I agree that China has a right to self-defense, but not if that “self-defense” violates the rights and maritime borders of other nations. The same is true of the united states as well–in which case i feel that the annexation of Hawaii by force from its people in the 19th century was utterly deplorable.
oh, and by the way, how can you claim to be peace-and-harmony loving when you make such bellicose threats against other countries?
Liang1a
To ACT:
All your fulminations is obviously for one purpose only which is to enable America to insinuate itself into the position of ruler of the world. In other words, it is America who wants to rule the world. What you are doing is say to the world, “Hey, look what a dangerous devil China is. You all better unite and vand get behind me as your leader so we can fight this evil together.” And hey presto, America becomes the global ruler. But the rest of the world is not as stupid as you think they are. They look at China and ask in what way is China being aggressive? We don’t see any Chinese colony around the world far away from their homeland. We see only colonies or former colonies of white men and Japan. It is white men and the Japanese who had killed millions of our peoples. We welcome China to be our protector against the proven aggressors who are Japan, America, and Europe. In the end, nobody in the world feel themselves threatened by China. And the only people who feel themselves threatened are Japan, India, and the US and their lackeys who fear that a rising China will protect the weaker nations against their aggression.
Liang1a
To ACT:
The more you talk the more you reveal yourself to have no original thoughts. All your demonizations of China have been warmed over and rehashed for decades. They have all been asked and answered ad nauseam. Nobody is stupid enough to believe it them anymore.
In the end, it is a very fortunate thing for China that it is finally stronger than the US and can ultimately be many times stronger. Protection of national sovereignty is the ultimate duty of any nation. Why did the US fight the Civil War? Why does it keep saing “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, INDIVISIBLE, with liberty and justice for all.” Hey, according to your protestations, no nation should be “obsessed” with defending its territories. So why are the Americans so obsessed with keeping their nation “INDIVISIBLE”? Just let it fly apart, why don’t you!
DownRedChina
@Liang1a:
You need to stop pretending China is harmless and peaceful. China’s actions suggest everyone to believe the opposite. Your Comrade admitted China is an aggressor by moving my chess around.
DownRedChina
I meant to say “Your Comrade John Chan…”
ACT
Liang1a,
you didn’t necessarily answer my question of why china feels that it has a sacred right to these territories….
as an answer to your “under god” question, that and the “indivisible” part were part of the original pledge of allegiance, which was created in the 1950’s when there was a great moral panic about the communists in Russia being “godless cretins”, which is obviously not the case.
as i noted before, I take a disparaging view of China due to its history, which i mentioned earlier. However much these arguments or whatnot have been rehashed over the years, they all contain a grain of truth. certainly not about being “godless” (i’m an atheist myself), but one fact flies out at me in all my reading; despite alleged differences and lengths of development, China and the US are in many ways similar; they both claim to be the light of the world, they both were founded and expanded via the subjugation and absorption of other groups of people, and both have a history of being profoundly supremacist in their thinking… Basically, both nations and their peoples have collective egos the size of a small planet and due to the belief that each is inherently superior, they are now coming into conflict.
ACT
@John Chan
The distinct problem with the viewpoint of “protesting when China is portrayed unfairly, etc” is not the viewpoint in and of itself. it’s the fact that not once have you ever backed it up with facts or evidence to the contrary. if you want to make a believable defense of China and her actions, then i ask that you at least go do your research and cite articles or academic resources where we can confirm your claims for ourselves.
ACT
you only do more damage to your arguments, when–for example–you call other nations “devil aggressors” as you did last night
DownRedChina
@John Chan
You repeatedly painted China is harmless and peaceful nation. But in this thread, you also said “If Vietnam is not careful, either Vietnam will become American butchering field or become part of China like the old days”. You admitted China is not peaceful after all. Mate liars always get caught. You learn well from your CCP masters!
Speaking of “peaceful China”, I’d like you to read “War Is Not Far from Us and Is the Midwife of the Chinese Century” http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-8/31055.html
Deng Xiaoping had a long term plan to conquer the world including United States. He advised his people “we must put up with America; we must conceal our ultimate goals, hide our capabilities and await the opportunity”
China had plan to wipe out American with biological weapons “We must prepare ourselves for two scenarios. If our biological weapons succeed in the surprise attack [on the United States], the Chinese people will be able to keep their losses at a minimum in the fight against the United States.”
Apart from world domination, China needs “living space” even more than did Hitler’s Germany. “Only countries like the United States, Canada, and Australia have the vast land to serve our needs for mass colonization”
It is shocking and scary to witness so many Mainland Chinese people approving of shooting at women and children.
Your thoughts, everyone?
ACT
@DRC
you have to be careful when you use articles like that; the epoch times isn’t a very well regarded news source in the international community, and the very fact that it’s an unconfirmed source means that it could easily be, say, the work of the CIA attempting to shift public opinion. Always make sure that if you’re citing an article, it’s an accredited source.
ACT
@all
DRC’s quotes come from the article, by the way… it’s an interesting read, and makes one think, but i can’t really call it trustworthy
DownRedChina
@ACT
Thanks for the advice. I agreed it’s a unconfirmed source. Searching for term “War Is Not Far from Us and Is the Midwife of the Chinese Century”, return 1190000 results. The huge number should say something.
ACT
but they’re in order of relevance; that means that any one of those words could have been used somewhere in an article. now, if you search for that term in quotes, typing in
“war is not far from us and is the midwife of the Chinese Century” you get 15,300 results. a much reduced number, but it still shows just how many people are discussing it on defense blogs and such
Liang1a
DRC wrote:
Apart from world domination, China needs “living space” even more than did Hitler’s Germany. “Only countries like the United States, Canada, and Australia have the vast land to serve our needs for mass colonization”
——————–
China has vast stretches of deserts to the west. Tibet is like the Rocky Moutain areas of the US. The sparsely populated areas to the north is like Canada. And the Inner Mongolia region is like most of Australia. Why should China go to Canada, Australia and the US when it has plenty of land with similar climate and topography to expand into?
DownRedChina
@Liang1a:
“China has vast stretches of deserts to the west. Tibet is like the Rocky Moutain areas of the US. The sparsely populated areas to the north is like Canada. And the Inner Mongolia region is like most of Australia. Why should China go to Canada, Australia and the US when it has plenty of land with similar climate and topography to expand into?”
Wait a minute. All the areas you mentioned China invaded from other countries. Which countries are you planning to invade next?
ACT
@ all china bloggers
i’d like to apologise, if only a little; as a student of history, i should be arguing from a neutral standpoint, yet my arguments have been tainted somewhat by the viewpoint of the nations i have lived in.
would any of you recommend that i live in bejing or hong-kong for a few years to a get a sense of “the other side of the coin?” should i make this a “life objective” in my coming years? your thoughts and recommendations, please.
JohnX
You may have to be careful that it doesn’t make you more hardline than more neutral.
I have found some of the most relevant and hard arguments against Chinese expansionism in any form either military or economic to be from individuals living or who have lived in China.
I have also found that many of the most hard core pro chinese commentators to be ethnic Chinese who have never lived in or visited China but who feel proud that a growing powerful China makes them more proud of being ethnic Chinese.
The problem is like that quote in Cool Runnings the Movie, If you are not enough without a gold medal then you will never be enough with a gold medal.Its a lesson that needs to be learned.
I lived 8 years in Korea and can tell you from personal experience that while it made me understand certain mindsets easier and see the negatives in my own culture, it didn’t make me more open to everyone elses cultures. It just made me want to adopt the good of different cultures and fight harder against the bad.
Chinese expansion into the South China Sea with the aim of taking territory from small nation states so that it can end its own energy problems is never going to be ok because you lived a few years in China or Hong Kong.
DownRedChina
@ACT
I strongly recommend article “Law Not War in the South China Sea” here at the-diplomat http://the-diplomat.com/2011/11/23/law-not-war-in-the-south-china-sea/ by John Hemmings. He pinpoints the problems with extremist China nationalist. Many of them are blogging on this site.
Passerby
@ACT
The real question for you is this: Do you want to be a true scholar-historian or do you want to be a think-tank analyst or journalist? If you want to be the former, you must take a neutral position at all times and let the evidence speaks for itself. And you must adhere to the scholarly definition of “evidence” by visiting and reviewing national archives and NOT, definitely NOT, taking something from the Internet as evidence of anything.
But if you want to be a think-tank analyst, a politician, or a journalist for that matter, you are free to take a position and to be biased for or against China.
Remember, as a scholar, you are required to put forward “arguments” based on evidence. But as a political analyst or journalist, you try to “rationalize” a predisposed position. Very often, people fool themselves by getting mixed up (more precisely messing up the difference) between ‘argument’ and ‘rationalization’.
In addition, who do you hang out with, while you are there, would pretty much determine the outcome of your experience there.
Further, without some really good language skills, you would not be able to understand the nuances of observed behaviours. But if you have good language skills, I can see that you would be able to learn much more by interacting with the locals. I have seen Americans, French, Iranians, Indians, Russians and Japanese, etc who debated with Chinese nationalists and scholars openly and completely freely on Chinese TV on many hot button issues (This fact may come as a surprise to many who hold an anti-China view).
ACT
thankyou, everyone, for your advice. Keep in mind that i’m only considering this.
i’ve lived in several nations; i’m currently in the US, but i was born in Canada, and have lived in the UK, Mexico and France. Perhaps China or Japan would help expand that world view; i have something of a fascination with the region and its history, but to be honest, i struggle with languages other than the romance languages (latin, french, spanish, italian, portugese).
I’m currently an undergraduate aiming for a masters in history; when i make arguments on here, i usually base them on what i know from the history of China, The US, Japan and the surrounding area, as well as US-China relations since i’ve taken several college classes on all of them; i’m in the process of reading several books on US-China rivalry as well. This is in addition to looking up information from academic resources (such as my college’s library database). My pattern in writing papers is usually that i select a subject, select a thesis, and then find evidence that proves or disproves it; i managed to successfully link Japan’s current fertility crisis to a cultural continuity of outlook and law that has existed since the Tokugawa era.
I have no hatred for the Chinese people; the reason why i criticize the policies of the PRC so heavily, however, is that for all the claims of aspiring to be the “light of the world”, the PRC has been perhaps the most hypocritical country in its policies second only to the United States
ACT
the other reason why i’m so critical of it, is that in the long run there’s no reason for there to be a conflict, military or otherwise between China and the US; for all the realpolitik, the conflict between China and the US is, in my honest opinion, merely the continuation of what began with the opium war; in other words, it’s a cultural superiority contest that is–in the end–no more mature than having two skiers stand out in the snow and see who can spit the furthest. Bringing up and using past grievances for foreign policy is much the same; just look at what it’s done to Israel and Palestine–and over RELIGION of all things!
Observer
LOL @ all the big tough talk from chinese posters. Let take a look at history, shall we?
Please do tell us how bad your own accestors fought against competent military forces. Do tell us how your own kind fought against Japan, Britain, Manchus, Mongolia. How did your ancestors fought for the last few thousands years against little Vietnam? What were the results? HUGE HUMILIATION AND SHAME!!!!
Typical of china/chinese, inferior complex and afraid of losing face = big tough empty talk. I wonder why china and chinese would not dare to take on Russia and take back the land north of Amur river? Oh, I forgot, so easy to push around little guys but so afraid of big guy. Typical of pathetic bully china.
One more thing, do tell us what year and what battle that Vietnam and Phillipines took islands in the East Sea from china. Go ahead and tell us. I can tell you that it was china that attacked Vietnam and Phillipines and took their islands in 1974, 1988, and 1995. It was pathetic china that was the invader.
Srey Doung
@Observer
@DRC
@a_vietnamese_observer
Please look yourself in the mirror and see how you Vietnamese treat the Khmer people. The current South Vietnam belonged to Cambodia, the current central Vietnam belonged to the Champa people, and you Vietnamese invaded and robbed them of their lands and destroyed everything that belonged to them.
Typical Vietnamese, worse than Chinese. When you are on the losing side, you cry bloody. When you get a chance, you vietnamese are no less barbaric.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/01/21/vietnam-halt-abuses-ethnic-khmer-mekong-delta
Mazo
So you agree that you are barbaric because you said “when you are strong you are no less barbaric!”.
This is why nobody trusts the Chinese in Asia – for anything! Even In business, Chinese are seen as deceptive and devious and people with no honor. You will find this attitude amongst most Asian people who have dealings with the Chinese for generations.
In China they see the religious Tibetans, the plain speaking Mongols as being “barbaric.”
DownRedChina
You are absolutely right.
Let’s look at history and evidences. It’s interesting you mentioned China´s massacre unarmed Vietnamese in Spratly 1988. China filmed the whole event and posted on YouTube as trophies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2ZrFphSmc
Observer
@ Srey Doung
Funny how you “forgot” to talk about bully china currently occupying sovereign nations such as Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia. Funny how you and your own kind “forgot” countless times that china attacked and enslaved little Vietnam and yet still got their behinds kicked out by Vietnam over and over time after time. Funny how you “forgot” about Guangxi and Guangdong that china took from Vietnam. Funny how you “forgot” to mention Vietnam removed the bloody Khmer Rouge (supported by china) and did NOT take over the whole nation based on some “historic evidences” as china always did to smaller neighbors (see above).
Losing side? You mean how china lose in 1979 (PLA), in the 1800’s (Quing), 1400’s (Yuan and Mongol – the same Mongol that slaughtered chinese like sheeps) and countless other times from little Vietnam? Typical of pathetic china and chinese, afraid of losing face = big empty talk. Shame and humilition, again, as usual.
Observer
Dear the readers,
Note that how chinse posters would NOT able to dispute my previous statements but have to resort to “but but other nations did bad things too”. Typical of ignorant/clueless/uneducated chinese.
Srey Doung
Chinese should be called out for their past sins for sure. But to blast Chinese in order to hide your own sins is no more a defence. See how bombastic you have become because I have touched that weak spot of yours that you always try to hide. Now you know what it is like to have a taste of your own medicine.