It's not often that you see India taking a firm stand on an international issue. Instead, prevarication, dilly-dallying or confusion are the hallmarks of its foreign policy most of the time. Often, it's hard to understand why India even takes a particular stand on an issue.
So it was surprising to hear about India’s decision to attend the ceremony that awarded the Nobel Peace Prize to Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo on December 10 in what was a very firm and highly symbolic move. At stake, though, was not only the prestige of the country, but also the credibility of the largest democracy in the world.
It’s of course debatable whether Chinese dissident leader Liu Xiaobo deserves Nobel recognition for his political activism in the communist country. Opinions are no doubt divided about the wisdom and politics of awarding the Peace Prize to an activist who’s serving a prison term of 11 years for his political activities.
In India, many feel that the international community is using the Nobel Prize to prick China on the issue it’s most sensitive on and some in Indian society believe that the West is using democracy to beat and humiliate it.
But it doesn’t bode well for India if it falls in line with China on something like this. Being an independent country with a rising international profile, India can’t allow itself to be seen to be being dictated to by China, a country with which it already shares an uncomfortable political relationship.
And anyway, China hasn't been particularly encouraging or friendly towards India in recent months. Take the case of the looming and widening threat from India’s neighbour at the north-eastern border. Then there’s the attempt to humiliate India by issuing separate visa papers to the people of Kashmir who travel into China—these are not indications of a friendly neighbour. India as a country is aiming to play a pivotal role in international politics, and can’t take such gestures lying down.
India has a responsibility not only to strengthen and deepen democracy in it’s own territory, but also to spread the movement to parts of the world where people’s voices are being suppressed and ignored.
The stand taken by India at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony shows that it’s a trend setter, and heralds the emergence of a confident nation that's sure of its values, adamant in its respect to freedom of expression and a voice of those nations and groups whose words and cries are currently not loud enough to be heard in the international arena.
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harry
ah yes India the world’s largest democracy, Indian dissidents are living a pretty good life, but in the name of democracy India’s free government has forgoten the welfare of 75% of its citizen who is living uder $2 a day.
free speech so a few individual can rant about the government vs A cerntrialized government that actually know how to run a country which inturn benefit most ordinary citizen.
ravi kumar
My dear ‘Harry’:
China has ‘good’ governance,
and the best ‘democracy’ money can buy.
India has a very inefficient government.
But it’s people know how to look after their own selves.
And this is the democracy, money won’t buy for China.
Harry dear, China has a desire to trump the West.
It wants to ‘redeem’ the glorious honour of the past,
so violated by the barbarians (really, anybody who isn’t Chinese).
China’s rush into fossil fuelled growth for 25 years speaks for it.
But India? The British did a lot of damage to our civilisation.
Yet we are friendly and even supportive nations.
India doesn’t want to trump the West at its game.
We want to ensure we are on the top of our game.
Which is why we will not bulldoze our villages.
And we won’t build large skyscrapers with a shelflife
of 40 years. Which is why we study every mistake you
make and because of our civil society, debate the lessons
in it for us.
By the admission of a Chinese scholar, India conquered
China by sending one monk. He was wrong. What India did was
to temper China’s self centered positivism and productivism
with Buddhist moderation. China has lost that value system
as has India the motivation to teach.
To be sure, there is a huge constituency of elites in both
countries who think money will solve the problems of
China and India. Ask the question ‘are you happier today than you
were a year ago? Five years ago?’ Not better, but happier.
The question answered honestly, will tell you why there is
no need to beat the West and why the Chinese model of growth
is nothing new.
When it comes to holistic thinking, there is still something
China can learn from India.
Urban and Industrial Planning does not make the universe.
Nor does propaganda. Nor does brow beating a comity of nations.
Liu Xiaobo is right.
Harry, what is your real name?
Please carry my message to Zhonganhai,
whenever you are headed that way next.
harry
ravi kumar
money can buy you everything. look at UAE its citizens are living in heaven compared to most indians, and yet they live under a absolute monarchy.
Chinese infrastructure is decades more advanced then india’s exept for a few corrupt developers who cut corners mostly its way better than any indian city can match.
talk about bulldozing vileges its apearant that the FREE indian government that is ahead of China’s, in China EVERY farmer has farmland, when the government wants a low quality farmland to develope it compensats the farmer and that farmer will then be given a Urban Hukou who enjoy many benfits.
in contrast indian faarmers are being cheated by the free government into a life of landless farmers, they get riped off by developers so that they can go live in a slum. my indian friend you only need to know that more than 17,500 indian farmers killed themselves per year
sky scrapers are attraction for foreign investment and also a breeding ground for local enterprises. its more attractive than a slum where its a breeding ground for cheap labour, and often illegal child labour.
indeed india’s citizens look after themselves and dislike government interferance in rural areas, is that why more than 1000 indians die of honor killing each year? is it also the reason why india has a so well estabilished caste system that China will NEVER match?
Indians has endured NOTHING that can even compared what Chinese had endured over the century of humiliation.
Ravi Kumar
Harry:
China and India are great civilisations which
are trying to act as nations. I hope you see the irony here.
All civilisations thrive (or survive)
because they make good choices.
Needless to say, they also make bad choices.
If China or India break their continuum,
the loss is to both, not just to one.
I accept your criticism of India’s failings.
There are many more, you haven’t mentioned.
They are valid. All of them.
But we can accept these (not support)
these failings because we do have an open system.
A top down system will not work in a country
where everyone is allowed the four and more freedoms.
The cultural diversity of all Europe on the population scale of China,
in a country half the size if the 48 contiguous states of the USA.
With the poverty level of subsaharan Africa. That is India.
We may never have the gleaming infrastructure of coastal China.
But yet we make it work. No one else has and likely never will.
Even the EU with its first world credentials finds the going tough.
However, while we in India admire the Chinese
efficiency, we cannot and do not want to be told
when and where to attend as was done
in the case of Liu Xiaobo.
Revenge and revanchism or nationalism is not useful.
Especially in a planet where resources are finite.
China and India are repeating a model of economics
which caused colonialism and environmental degradation.
Why are we repeating it?
Bodhidharma wasn’t the only Indian scholar to go to China.
Tagore went too. His message was to decry nationalism.
Not just Indian nationalism (!) but Japanese (militarism) and
German (National Socialism) ones too. He foresaw the dangers
of beating the ‘we’ drums and the coming of the war drums.
Chinese and Indian leaderships are both failing their peoples,
individually and collectively. And in doing so they are failing all Asia
and the wider humanity. An entire generation in both countries
is growing up on a steady diet of nationalism. Of a manufactured enemy
over the Himalayas.
This enemy was created by the militarist ambition of Mao and
his cadres. Of course, you will put this down to me being
an Indian and will quote something obligatory of Nehru’s role.
Yet, Mao killed 70 million human beings (they were humans before
they were Chinese). The decimation of a great civilisation, that of Tibet,
remains a testimony to the militarist socialist techniques chosen
by the Chinese leadership.
There is no heavenly mandate to the emperors thar rule China today.
They should not be executing close to 1800 people and ask their
family to pay for the bullets. They should not be using mobile execution
vans for executing people with lethal doses of injected chemicals.
They should instead make China a true democracy and snatch from
India it’s bragging rights.
China has a face. Then why does it spite its neighbours?
Why does it aid garrison states? Why does it speak of a
peaceful rise but isn’t at peace with itself?
Because the militarist approach has failed again and again.
It is simply unsustainable. Even the West knows that but
doesn’t want to ‘admit defeat’. Yet, one can reject the failures
of the West and learn from it’s positive contributions.
China has taken the West’s worship of ’straight line, no curves’
definition of ‘progress’, without questioning it’s endpoint.
How would it, the militarist technique wouldn’t allow it to.
But in India we are constantly questioning it.
Which is why we are not entirely engrained on a environmentally
dangerous path dependency. Again, of course, you will chide
this as a ‘no path’ ideology. But, that wouldn’t stop the
Hwang Ho and the Ganga from flowing. Only pollute them.
Even more.
Thanks for your response and your criticism.
But why not extend the same courtesy to Liu Xiaobo?
harry
Ravi Kumar
there are some vilidity to what you said, such as China and india all have deep rooted problems. However your perception of China is mostly misguilded.
1, a top down way of developing always work, look at UAE which is the nearest example of state lead economic development, also note the fact that USA before 1960s(and during the entire cold war) it had a well developed system of state capitalism such as the Military industrial complex which made USA the world superpower thanks to state capitalist ways of thinking it also made USA the first country in the world to send man to the moon.
Free market economy that MANY indians are so proud of, and most indians think this is a advantage over China’s state economy. Note the fact that free market economy in a developing nation wont work as well as a state capitalist one(CHina) India is trying to copy the success of Europe and USA not knowing free market economy needs a matured society and a stable economic and infrastructural backbone which is severly lacking and underdeveloped in india. Free market economy in a developing country is not efficient and is dangerous to pursue that is why if you look at the history of the Great Powers all of them had state capitalist type of economy before free market economy.
2, Since you mentioned tibet may be you should see how is the free democratic indian government is torturing the people of Kashmir, If you dont know what Im talking about simply read the latest deplomatic cables released by Wikileak. note the fact that no respected academics in the world says physical genocide ever happened in tibet, talk of cultural genocide is also debatable, simple facts like language of tibet is tought from primary, nearly every Tibetan child can speak tibetan, and tibetan culture is celebrated widly in China, will tell you different from what you will hear from BBC or CNN.
3, As I said before India will never understand what China has been through, to the muslim world the crusad is still happening in Palestine, Iraq and Afganistan this way of seeing thhings is invisible to westerners. To Chinese colonialism is still happening to taiwan and Diaoyu island.
4, since you respect Liu Xiaobo so much its maybe more respectful if you read his works. If you have read his Charter 08 you will know that most of the demands he asked are discussed openly in China. the two demands that puts him in jail are
no1 he asked to foundamentaly changed the Chinese governing system which basically asking for a revolution, judging by the situation China is in a time when economy and making its citzens richer rank above all talk of a revolution is not acceptable from the state to the citizen.
no2 he supports independance of tibet and Xinjiang by demanding for a federated republic which will make Tibet and Xinjiang(half of China’s landmass0 into defacto independant countries.
5, Mao’s doings are an open secret, Chinese people are very practical we dont see how is smashing the portrait of Mao is going to help the problems China is facing, we also dont see how is it going to help the deep rooted problem China have by simply being a democracy. the Iraony is many Chinese see india as a living example of how a country is going to be if a so called democracy us rushed(trust me its not attractive to everydaay Chinese folks). indstead of saying indians are studying the Chinese way also note that Chinese is studying india even more closely.
Ravi Kumar
Dear Harry:
Thank you for taking the time to consider my statements.
1. UAE: The environmental footprint of UAE’s economy per
capita is a over twenty times of that of USA.
It underscores the concern for the economy versus
ecology / greed versus green aspects of the techniques
being used by India and China to manage their economies.
2. TIBET: Asia has six classical civilisations.
China, Japan, Korea, Tibet, India and Persia (Iran).
I have personally worked with both Chinese and
Tibetans. There is a huge distinction between them.
Historically, Tibetans have been a buffer state between
Indians and the Chinese, absorbing goods and ideas
from both. Their language and beliefs and customs
reflect this osmotic symbiosis of the Indic and the Sinic.
Yet, they have a civilisation all their own.
Despite Chinese protestation, there is a widespread
Hanization of Tibet with Tibetans being outnumbered in
their own motherland. This is cultural genocide plain and simple.
KASHMIR: The Kashmiri militants are a small group.
Of all states in the Indian union, the Indian exchequer
has give ten times per capita finance to Kashmiris.
Indian Kashmiris are a lot better off and much more
productive and industrious people than the population
in POK ( Pakistan Occupied Kashmir ).
Torture, is to be condemned. It has been used against
militants armed by China’s socalled all weather friend
Pakistan. And we all know the weather there.
What riles Indians that while China speaks of goodwill
to India, it arms with nuclear technology the garrison
state of Pakistan and makes baseless claims on an
entire Indian state under the newly concocted rubric of
South Tibet. Whereas though India has given asylum to
the Dalai Lama, it has never allowed any military activity
directed at China and has restricted the Tibetan government
in exile from doing the same. Regarding Taiwan,
recall well that it’s seat on the UN was offered to India.
India (Nehru) gifted it to the ’sister’ state of The PRC.
Does the Chinese leadership ever take these historical
favours into consideration? Why not? Will you only respect
us and until then snub us, when we decide to play the
game of shogi with the rules of chaturanga? Is this what is
expected of India? Because that is exactly the scenario being
created by the signals Chinese leadership is sending to
the hawks and anti-Chinese cliques in India.
How is this helpful? Or maybe the Chinese leadership
needs an ‘angry India’ bugaboo to keep nationalism on the go?
3. COLONIALISM: The habit of seeing the shadows of the past
in the blinding lights of the future is of no use.
What Chungkuo and Bharat have suffered is sad.
I have seen pictures of Nanjing and Dalian etc.
What colonial powers did was wrong. And it would
break all hopes of humanity if China and India were
to repeat this rapacious rampage, as we are beginning to
do in Africa and Latin America. Have you read the
book Victorian Holocausts? If you do, you will know
that under the British, India lost over 50 million lives
due to various famines ( after 1947, not one famine. )
mind you, Harry, this is the official statistic. You can
imagine what the real numbers were like. The book
mentions Chinese numbers too and these are higher still.
The point is ‘my holocaust is larger than your’s’ means
nothing and justify nothing. Until we realise that Jallianwala
Bagh and Nanjing massacres have a common thread of
exploitation running through them, we will make the same kind
of inconsiderate and unproductive criticisms.
Blaming the Japanese and British citizens of today for the
sins of their forefathers is a distraction at best and a dilution
of progressive efforts.
4. LIU XIAOBO: Liu Xiaobo is saying in public and in what
constitutes a very courageous act in a top down economy,
in written document, that the Chinese leadership must trust
its people. That until it does, China might be feared abroad
but never respected. He is saying that the Chinese genius
needs to be expanded from the domain of material expansion
to spiritual realms as well. That giving Tibet and Xinjiang independence,
will not weaken but strengthen Chinese influence while making
it a full fledged member of the international comity of nations.
Now in India there is Arundhati Roy. Many don’t agree with her
stance on Kashmir. The Nobel Peace prize or Nobel Literature
prize may be awarded to her. She will use it to speak her perspective
on these issues. But rest assured, she won’t be jailed or imprisoned.
She will be debated openly on TV and radio and called on to
justify her points. And if her points have no merits she will be
exposed. If her points are valid, the results will be in the public scrutiny.
The idea here is that public scrutiny keeps intellectuals
and politicians in check. Rather than the politicians keep intellectuals and
the public in scrutiny.
5. MAO ZEDONG: Tearing down the portraits of Mao is no help. Agree.
But denouncing him publicly will eliminate the false ceremony that is placed
at his image. There were so many great Chinese leaders who were put to end
by him as well. Mao’s legacy in the net has been damaging overall. So many
innocents killed in Chinese countryside. The needless animosity between
India and China (Zhou Enlai, a man of much calmer temperament would
have used continued diplomacy were it not for the pressure on him to conform
with Mao’s wounded ego in the failed military campaigns against Vietnam.)
the destruction of Chinese historical heritage, some with direct bearing on
the memory of joint Sino-Indo markers of civilisational interactions.
I recently saw a book of Cartier Bresson’s journalism in China. Thus, I am aware of the
sad tragedy of the Chinese people. But by no means were you alone. Ever.
Xexu’s concern of opium trade took a toll on us too. It was Indian opium,
grown by British diktat that was used to turn a third(!) of China’s population
into addicts. We were there too. As we are still here today. And we will be there with you
tomorrow. Cause even if you raise the Himalayas higher still or level them into a
powdered plain, you will have to call us neighbours, as we would call you the same.
Studying each other is in the eyes of some, a strategy. The reality is, it is an
absolute necessity. To turn it into a competition, is to once again play callously
with the life of billions. Which is the unfortunate parlour game of the hawks.
And I have not been a hawk.
Regards,
Ravi Kumar
CHINA AND INDIA’s LATEST LOVE-IN RAISES SERIOUS ISSUES FOR THE WEST:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/8211788/China-and-Indias-latest-love-in-raises-serious-issues-for-the-West.html
harry
Ravi Kumar
1, UAE is not an example of economic development vs environmental its rather a case of citizen of UAE living in a reletivly harmonious society under an absolute monarchy, which is suggesting the key to the happiness of a country is economic development(a path China is currently taking) rather than a rushed democracy where the people SEEMS tobe in control(infact corrupt bureaucrats are the masters)
2, you seem to not know tibet really well, my father was a journalist in China and I traveled to tibet with him at an young age(it was before tibet was the focal point of Chinese economic development), in tibet tibetans were free to practice their religion as long as its not politically motivated. every tibetan child learns tibetan language and culture at schools and tibetans are not subject to the one child policy.
Its funny when western culture invades China in 1980s no one cried cultural genocide/ invasion. because it was manking the living standard of Chinese better. and now the Chinese government is trying to stimulate the tibetan economy with new ways of living and doing business everyone cries GFNOCIDE. Who does some people think they are? they are trying to preserve some very backward aspects of tibetan culture for the sake of traveling their and throw peanuts at them. And the socalled the preservation of culture will come at the expense of the living standards of future tibetans. who are people to say that a young Tibetan child born into the nomadic family cant have access to modern education or living somewhere with solid walls? Cultures NEEDS to evolve with time to survive cultures are NOT preserved it is meant tobe changed with the development of the world. THUS the accusations of culture genocide is completly basless
I myself is ehtnic Manchu and i dont know how to speak Manchurian. Im not crying about cultural genocide because I know the time of Manchus have came and went ever since our Emperor Shunzhi sat on the Chinese throne and spoke Han Chinese.
Kashmire can not be more different to the tibetan separatist movement. simply because tibetan issue is internationalized by a CIA funded monk, and the willingness of prople around the world to jump on the China bashing bandwagon to accuse China when most of them dont even under stand the issue or cant even find tibet on a world map.
3, the british treated Indians with relitive respect. and today india and britian have a close relationship, where as Japan who not only systematiclly massacred millions of Chinese, today japan is still worshiping 14 convicted class-A war-criminals and thousands of Class-b and c in the Yasukuni shrine, this is like Germany is honoring Hitler in a church. Also japan is still occupying Diaoyu island a Chinese territory before it was taken by the japanese by force in 1895.
4, I stand my groun in regards to Liu xiaobo he advocated for revolution and separation of Xinjiang and tibet from China(both have influencial organizations overseas trying very hard to making it happen as opposed to the relitive regional nature of Kashmire)
5, denouncing Mao is has already happened long ago, today Chinese dont read little booklet of Mao or follow any of the ideology of Mao, China has seen how Stalin was denounced in Russia and it didnt help the Russian citizens a bit. “eliminate the false ceremony that is placed at his image.” as a Chinese I truly dont know the birthday of Mao or any of his ideologies because in Chinese schools the teachers think they are usless and meaningless to modern China. we study a few selection of his poems in class but its selected from a pure literate perspective rather than political.
Techniques of torture used by Indian government on Kashmiri included electric shock treatment, sexual and water torture and nearly 300 cases of “roller” abuse in which a round metal object is placed on the thighs of a sitting detainee and then sat on by guards to crush the muscles, according to the cable.
according to wikileaks-India has consistently denied human rights abuses in Kashmir, and that it is alleged that the root problem comes from a special dispensation that governs Indian troops in Kashmir.
The Armed Forces special Powers Act gives the army sweeping immunity they can pick up civilians who they think are perpetrators, and in some cases they can also get away with killings and torture with any prosecution and some say that this is where the rot actually stems from.
Ravi Kumar
Harry:
“Cultures NEEDS to evolve with time to survive
cultures are NOT preserved
it is meant to be changed
with the development of the world.”
You hit the nail on its head there.
Sage words.
China is surely very important.
We wish it well in its evolution.
Thank you for this very enlightening discussion.
Regards,
http://www.businessinsider.com/shadow-over-asia-2010-11
harry
Ravi Kumar
not only China the whole world needs to change their perception of cultural preservation, that includes india.
I have read the link you provided its not news to me many so called economic analysts critical of China always think that somhow China is going to go with the state capitalist system in the future. We are already seeing a shift of relying on domestic demands in the 12th 5 year plan policies. the efficientcy of the Chinese government make me trust this will happen in within this decade.
China around 2020 will rethink its economic system,
1, because by then most of CCP officials will be those who were born after the reform and opening up policy and most might have western education and their perspective in economy and politics are very libral. So there is no doubt that China will change because its leaders are NOT believers of communism or socialism, they are not revolutionaries who led armies or engineers who worked in a factory(technocrats) they will be well educated good with money capitalists.
But in the mean time its best in China’s interest to stick with the government lead economic development.
Think economy as a giant old fasioned clock the you need to wind, at the begining you need a strong hand(the government) to start up the economic development and set it in the right direction, once the clock is fully wind up then let it go and let the market run on itslef. but once in a while economic crisis will hit, then its time to bring back the hand and have a well regulated economy for a while and then let go again.
USA in this respect is failing they have a unregulated economy where big corporations can lobby and influence government policies and with their too big to fail attitude they make money out of economic crisis at the tax payer’s expense. USA needs a strong hand to teach those corporations a leasson, but democracy is preventing that from ever happen(if you dont know what im talking about just look at how the Tea Pary in USA are calling Obama a socialist)
you cant have both democratic government or rapid economic development, both benefit the people in different ways but I would have to say rapid economic development is the right choice, believe it or not economic development and foundation is the key to everything-freedom and human rights.
ravi kumar
Harry:
I should have to say,
I agree that economic foundations,
do help foster human rights and freedom.
But this does not have to be a binary choice.
China’s experience is unique
in the context of its own civilisation.
As is India which has its own history.
Which is why the idea of one versus other,
is wrong and a concoction of hawks on both sides,
and outside.
That said. I am curious to understand,
since India will not take the path of
state capitalism and since China will
not choose parliamentary democracy
anytime soon; what alternative remains.
What as a Chinese watcher of India,
would you suggest is the optimal
path India should take to align its
economic model to the rest of Asia.
The Indian challenge is the same as the
Chinese one. How to feed, clothe, shelter and educate
a billion plus people with limited resources,
without sacrificing economic growth and most
importantly without damaging the environment.
Clearly economic growth without environmental
health is no use because it destroys freedom,
impinges on human rights.
Also, if 2.5 billion people take a resource
intensive productivist approach to growth,
the impact on the planet is horrific and
unsustainable? So, what gives?
What has to change? And if people,
aren’t free to speak out against the
immediate shortcomings in their communities,
without fear of reprisals by the state,
how does the state gain their partnership
in implementing it’s economic targets in an
environmentally friendly way?
Would like to hear your viewpoint on these.
Regards,
Dave Stepford
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly,
the true place for a just man is in prison.
-Henry David Thoreau
Ravi Kumar, you are arguing against a system
that does not put much store in loss of a moral face.
Where there is no fear of loss of moral authority,
pacifism fails and acquires the consistency of appeasement.
This is precisely what the West has done by
allowing the CCP to deepen its trade contacts over
the past three decades. Doubtless, it has been a grave
miscalculation which the West is only now coming to
realise. Liu Xiaobo means nothing to China.
harry
ravi kumar
I agree what you said. China dont have democratic elections, democratic elections are helpful to keep a government clean. However its mostly the other way around an uncorrupt well educated and harmonious society is helpful for democratic elections tobe clean. This is why democracy is not suitable for developing countries. in the West demcracy is evolved rather than introduced or enforced. The basis of democracy are the people, without a morally, financially developed society any democracy is hollow. People like Liu XiaoBo tends to concentrate on the constitutional aspect.
1, what india needs to do is the allow the central government more powers, it may sounds scary but its necessary for a efficent government. granting more powers to the central government(while allowing freedom of information) also will help the corruption that plagues india.
But the most benefit india will get from a centralized government is clear economic development goals.
For example Chinese government is acknowledging the environmental issues in China, and now China is leading the world in green technology investing $30 billion compared to second place USA around $16 billion, 6 of the top ten companies that manufacture solar panels are Chinese. China produces 23% of all the solar panels in the world, new solar hot water installations during 2007 worldwide China-80% india-1%. Chinese government is also supporting companies like BYD to be a world leader in Green car technology. China also has the worlds’ longest electric high speed railway network and is building even more.
These are all very impressive. Although China has a long way to go in green technology but we are on our way.
2, In China every 5 years all major government organs meet and set goals and try its best to achieve it. the goals not achieved at the end of the 5 years gets its share in the next one. the 12th 5 year plan plans to boost domestic demand and move away from the unsustainable export relient model, narrowing rich-poor gap, curb urban-rural inequalities, provide support for and encourage green technology…etc. India has 5 year plans too but from what I can see they are not as efficient as China’s(provided both countries started at similar time)the reason is india’s government is not as centralized as CHina’s. Capitalists are greedy they do what ever is the most profitable while governments have to think about the political consequences.
3, China’s model is nowhere near the word good, so does india’s. there is a middle point where both countries can move towards and that is a very well regulated market economy but keeping governments in the loop to direct the market. This economic model plus an independent and just judiciary system, freedom of information, and a good education system is all a country needs to be a superpower with happy citizens. I beleive both China and India can achieve these goals its a matter of time.
4,Chinese government don’t allow freedom of speech but the officials in beijing knows the voice of the general Chinese public, and if they dont go with the flow there might be another Tiananmen protest, if this happens again the people will be the winner. But for now most Chinese are reletivly satisfied with CCP.
i think the thought of the people overthrowing CCP is enough to make the central government to do its job properly. Although some local government officials do behave like thugs, in time these thugs will decrase with the post 1970s and 80s liberal minded Chinese entering leadership role.
John Chan
@Dave Stepford, how about looking at things from a different angle. The West wants to cloak themselves in fake moral high ground and redirect attention from the world about their hideous actions regarding racial genocide, culture genocide, and religious genocide. So the west decided to make China their whipping boy with fabricated allegations human rights crimes.
China used the incident of LXB’s Nobel Peace prize to mobilise the world to protest the egoism and hierocracy practised by the West. Unfortunately India dares not to stand on the side of justice and right, and was coerced by their ex-colonial masters into smearing China.
LXB is a convicted criminal who incited the break-up of China, much like Jefferson Davis, or those people currently in the Appalachians.
The West has been successfully exploiting the 3rd world like Mexico, Indonesia, and Malaysia, to name a few, before China opened up. The West believed they could exploit China just as easily as those nations. The arrogance of the West made them forget what Napoleon had told them about China. It is not that the West has miscalculated; it is their greed that has done them in.
Ravi Kumar
Harry:
All points you make under 3 and 4 are cogent.
However, I don’t think that another uprising will be allowed
by the Chinese government. Dissidence clearly is not in the interest of the CCP.
It will not allow chaos to emerge. In 1989, the Chinese economy was nascent.
Now it is emergent. All the more reason, for an even more brutal stampdown.
Liu Xiaobo is an example.
However, surely, you will accept that though China’s economic growth has been impressive and the 5 year planning programmes have been well executed,
the country has paid a huge price in terms of ecology.
The documentation by the Canadian photographers, especially Ed Burtynsky,
is telling in this regard. The documentary, Manufacturing Landscapes … speaks to this end. Burtynsky himself has made presentation in the famous TED conferences, regarding this toll on the environment.
Harry, one point I have been trying to make in my subsequent posts is,
that undoubtedly countries with a billion plus people will have growth,
because of the educated intelligentsia and elite, however the cost on the
environment cannot be discounted and has to be calculated in the equation.
Let’s say, India and China make concessions to each other, to boost those sectors in each other economies, which can benefit from the participation of other. Great … the GDP for both is shooting to the the stars … but what of the environment. Both countries have huge rural populations. What are the left with? Everybody cannot move to the planned urban developments. Besides, the cities have contaminated ground water supplies … in both China and India.
I think this is the very reason, that public voice should be given a degree of freedom to call out the disasters as they emerge. For example, in India, the citizens in the area where Coke / Pepsi bottling plants were contaminating the ground water, called out the issue and the government had to act. In China, meanwhile, the government tried to control SARS for six months, before it became known in the media.
The Nobel laureate (Economics) Amartya Sen, has said in his lectures and books, that India has a lot to learn from China such as rapid expansion in health care and education … however that harmony without resolving conflicts, is not adequate. And this is a person, a scholar, who has deep regard for China.
So, I believe, China must not take Indian observations, as an affront to its policies. Or vice versa. Probably, the best thing to say would be ‘we agree to disagree.’ Yet, that is exactly what the leaderships of the two countries have done over the past decades. It will very soon be time for the leaderships to move from entrenched positions and find common grounds across the board on many issues … some of them of global importance. Instead, there remains a lot of confrontations and finger pointing. And the window is very small. Really only this new decade to put in place a comprehensive window of cooperation with well defined benchmarks and timeframe. I don’t think either country is prepared for it.
I have been reading the ASIA magazine from the 1930s and 1940s, it is telling to see the politics of these two countries even back then, the poverty, the size of the problems they faced even back then … there were opportunities and attempts by leaders even then to find common ground, but domestic compulsions sucked them back in. Yes dynamics are very different today, Asia does have resources, but not the will for cooperation and no country negotiates with a mood of give and take. Except perhaps for, ASEAN.
I rest my case.
Ravi Kumar
Dave:
I am not arguing against a system, but what I believe are its shortcomings.
Anyone is going to defend their system. It is what they work with and are therefore invested into. Harry / John clearly believe their system has delivered the economic goods. And yes, China’s GDP is well north of India’s.
However, there is a huge environmental / ecological price to pay for it.
If you would kindly, take the trouble to read the Harry-Ravi discussion thread,
you would realise that my thrust has been on the price being paid for using the economy only criteria versus Harry’s emphasis has been on economy first criteria.
Yes, this conversation did start off under the Liu Xiaobo pretext.
The fact is India did not want to be seen in the company of countries like, Pakistan etc. because it shows it in a poor light. It has also not used the
Liu Xiaobo event as a diplomatic irritant with China … because frankly, what does it achieve? Only thing is, that India does not want to be told how to conduct itself on a global stage by any other country, including the USA.
It’s decision to attend the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony was entirely its own.
And in fact, some sections of the Indian media felt that the West was using this as a pretext to prick China in a time of economic uncertainty. Yet, there are sections of the Indian media, which expressly relayed a widely felt Indian mood, that India must not be told by China / USA or other countries what it can or cannot do.
This led me to raise the point of nationalism. China has for the longest time been nationalist. Now in response to certain policies of China towards India, a huge section of the population is becoming nationalist too. This clearly does not help anyone in the Asian mainland. It is completely un-necessary.
And towards that point, I have argued that the leaderships in both country need to find a common ground and foster across the board co-operation. Mere sloganeering does not help. Actions speak louder than word and clearly there are Chinese provocations regarding the border issue and building of dams etc.
Indians feel that China does not address serious Indian concerns, viz arming and support of Pakistan, building ports in partnership with the Myanmar junta and showing Arunachal Pradesh as South Tibet (a new term that didn’t even exist until recently) on its map. Stapling separate visas to passports for Indian citizens from Kashmir, reducing the map of India-China border arbitrarily by a 1000 miles. It all throws the concept of ‘Peaceful rise’ of China into a big question.
A free media in China would have kept the Chinese hawks in check, much as to a greater extent, the Indian hawks are kept in check in the Indian media. Therefore, the official government line gets the only play in Chinese media and therefore the Chinese people only know what they are told. These have been the broad areas of conversations … that China’s economic growth has been astounding is what Harry has exphasized, and I have not debated that.
harry
Ravi Kumar
expect a Tiananmen protest if the government dont do somthing with the inflation and the rediculous housing price, and the rich-poor gap. there are thousands of protest each year in China, and if the government dont tackle these problems effectivly there might well be an protest in Tiananmen.
These problems has all been openly addressed by Chinese government right to the top Wen jiabao. lets see how do CCP tackle these problems in the 12th 5 year plan where its based around those issues.
Believe it or not nationalist only represent a minority of Chinese. there was an show few weeks ago on CCTV4 discussing the “The danger of the rise in nationalism” and I concluded from that the Chinese nationalism is not dangerously high, We are the largest consumer of japanese product if Chinese nationalism dominates China(like South Korea) then no Chinese will buy made in japan.
there were a few protest against japan in central western China after the Diaoyu island incident, in Shanxi many took to the streets in protest against japan. BUT did you know what is acually on the banners? slogans such as “Ma yingjiu(taiwanese “president”) we welcome you to” “down with the corrupt bureaucratic system” “Stop the rise in housing price”…etc. this just shows many Chinese dont really care about nationalistic ideologies.
I agree with you on the environment problems, but its mostly Jiang Zemin’s(previous Chinese president) fault of economic development at the expense of everything. Hu jintao and wen jiabao is left with a messy situation to clean up.
John Chan
@Ravi Kumar, a commenter on this site said “every Indian article written by an Indian needs to be taken with a bucket of salt. From what I can see it’s the Indians who are ‘belligerent’ towards China with their constant China Threat propaganda and their revisionist version of history with regards UN and the wars between its neighbours.” His remark still rings true to your elaborated comments.
Your knowledge about China reflects how utterly untruthful and twisted India is teaching their kids in their schools about China. In according to the way you trashed China, the following way to describe India will be also true. The democracy in India is as good as in Azerbaijan. India is a nation of plutocracy and kleptocracy, a nation of paradox, one hand it pretends to be democratic, and on the other hand its people do whatever possible to preserver its feudal and regressive caste system that discriminates and abuses human beings by birth. One documentary film showed in the North America about India’s untouchables, they are bonded to clean excrement for life, on top of that they are prohibited to use tool to do their job. That kind society surely does not match a society in India as glorified by you. The inhuman stories occurred between higher and lower castes are beyond words.
Your elaborated argument cloaks the hideous intention and faith of India which wants all nations around India to fail.
The Chinese are here to fight against the lies are being told about China, to clear the smears are being printed over China, and to expose the hidden agenda in the articles that are designed to undermine China. The Chinese on this site just want China and its people to be treated fairly and equally by the world.
VIren Das
Dear John ( Are you in the same room as Harry’s?)
India, unlike China is ‘too poor’ to maintain
a posse of vigilante bloggers who turn every or any
thread of debate, into a matter of national prestige.
Juvenile. Why be so insecure?
And rank the efficacy of the blog-warrior
by scoring points in a database,
to remunerate them for their nationalistic defense.
An impartial review of this thread will verify for most,
the charges that have been laid up on both countries.
China has clean streets, and a dirty conscience.
India has a lot of dirt. We don’t cover it up.
When we clean it up. And we will, with less
ecological and social and human cost than China’s,
our progress will be clean, not just on the eyes but on
the mind.
Regards,
Satyamev Jayate.
(The Truth. It wins. Always.)
PS: I am in the same room as Ravi,
well at least metaphorically.
Lao He
How true you are, Mr. Chan (Chen?)!
India is very hypocritical country. Say China’s land is something called Arunchal Pradsh, which only because British steal China’s land. Workers of India should be grateful China justly re-takes land in Himalaya to liberate poor serfs there.
Ravi Kumar
Lol @ Lao He!
On the first line of his bravado shot … he taints (exposes) his own cohorts.
And then bursts into a barrage. What is amazing is that this troop doesn’t even have the decency of having a proper debate. Infact, the more they indulge in it, the deeper they sink, the angrier they get, the more they take recourse to propaganda and name-calling. What a striking contrast. All for the fifty-cents worth.
Okay, so here is the roll call >
1. Zhao Lianhai: His own child died of the tainted milk scandal. He protested heroically … only to be sentenced to the prison for 2 and half years. Now he is out on ‘medical parole’ and actually has signed away an apology in return for his ‘freedom’. An example of an honest private man and an upright public official, being put down by China’s perfidious ‘judicial’ system. Of course, of course, according the 50 cent net-troopers this fellow is a reactionary.
2. Gao Zhisheng: The environmentalist lawyer who decided to take up the cudgels against the official Chinese apathy for the environmental disaster being heaped on the Chinese people and the countryside. All with no repercussions to the criminal crony capitalists who were creating this mess. What does he get for his troubles? A similar fate as Mr. Lianhai. Of course, of course, according the 50 cent net-troopers this fellow is a reactionary.
3. Liu Xiaobo: Should I have to start all over again?
The only way to talk to people who can’t reasonably engage in a civil discourse (because they have no history of it) is to hold up their dirty laundry to them.
Civility is misconstrued as weakness by the 50 cent net-troopers. No more.
Tell it like it is.
Dave Stepford
Bravo, Ravi Kumar! I have always thought that the Indians were needlessly accommodating of the 50 cent net-troopers from the heavenly kingdom.
To use a sino-english term that the Chinese netizens are so proud of using …
the Chinese protestations are UNGELIVABLE. Now, if you don’t know the meaning of it, look it up at this link …
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ungelivable
Ravi Kumar
PRISONERS
by Humayun Kabir
I came to your home. I had thought I would beg of you.
A little of the sweetness you have in your heart
To soothe the heartburn and the restlessness of life,
That the star of love might shine in my cool, silent sky.
The pain which day and night burns deep in me,
The discontent and lack of peace that weigh
Like chains on the feet and check the forward urge,
Put up barriers against the heart’s desire ~
The same chains, the same bonds bear heavily on you,
Your desires, yours hopes return to you frustrated, vain,
Baffled by the prison bars my rebellious, embittered mind
Long evil and good alike in my common ruin to hurl.
Men and women we look helpless at each other’s face.
————————————————————————–
Evidently Liu Xiaobo tried to utter the same sentiments.
The CCP tried to crush him.
And failed.
the-diplomat.com
India finally takes a stand.. Very nice :)