The Chinese People’s Liberation Army has a new maritime patrol plane apparently optimized for finding and destroying submarines. But whose submarines? And how effective will it be?
The first pictures of the Y-8F-600 patroller, a derivative of the Soviet-designed An-12 cargo plane, appeared online last week. Sources indicate the PLA has taken possession of two of the patrol planes, apparently for testing. The PLA traditionally builds large numbers of new warplanes only after extensive trials and design changes.
The patroller appears to be equipped with a surface search radar, an infrared sensor, a magnetic boom for detecting submerged submarines and a bomb bay for torpedoes and other weapons.
“The appearance of the new Y-8 platform indicates that China is expanding its ASW ambitions,” Aviation Week journalist Bill Sweetman notes. “Building an aircraft is only a small part of the ASW battle. It also requires sensor and processing technology...and human expertise.”
Developing and sustaining an effective open-ocean anti-submarine capability, of the sort that can deter or defeat large, powerful nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) in deep water, is a daunting challenge. During the Cold War, the U.S. Navy and the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force evolved complex Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) systems involving P-3 patrol planes, underwater sensors, surface vessels and their own submarines. The goal was to find and if need be sink Soviet subs before they could threaten U.S. and Japanese shipping.
In the decades since the end of the Cold War, the United States and Japan have shifted their sub-hunting focus towards China and its large force of diesel-powered submarines. Both countries have produced new patrol planes: the U.S. P-8 Poseidon and the Japanese P-1.
“Since this [the Y-8] is only a second generation ASW aircraft, it’s probably a generation behind P-8 Poseidon in terms of the platform and sensors,” notes “Feng,” a blogger from the highly-regarded website Information Dissemination.
For that reason, it’s likely the Y-8 patroller is meant to track the less-sophisticated submarines belonging to countries such as Vietnam and Taiwan – and only when they're close to shore where other Chinese forces can help.
“China has very limited ASW capabilities and appears not to be making major investments to improve them,” explains Owen Cote, Jr., an analyst at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “The ASW capabilities it does have appear focused on coastal defense, and on the threat posed by the diesel submarines of potential regional adversaries as opposed to American SSNs.”








Reason
Stuff like this just proves that the CCP controlled PLA just isn’t a credible military on the world stage. Especially when it comes to naval warfare.
So, basically, the CCP thought that they could win the hearts and minds of the Chinese public by spending billions on a junk carrier -
Once the carrier was announced the free press of the world panned it for what it was and the fact that it would be sunk by subs in a matter of days in any conflict, because China has totally rubbish ASW equipment.
No doubt there was some smart PLAN dude who had been stating this obvious fact for decades but not receiving any funding cus and generally being ignored as it really isn’t as sexy a big project – like a Carrier.
The CCP is addicted to big projects that aren’t well thought through…. they’re everywhere in China.
So now, after the carrier project has been totally panned by anyone with iota of common sense they’re finally taking note that what they should have been spending money on was ASW – this would be much more credible asymmetric policy against the CCP’s two most capable enemies, the US and Japan
So, here we have it…. two anti sub planes playing catch up at the speed of light – Good luck to them!
Why do Chinese people put up with this continual incompetence of the CCP?
Yang zi
It is anyone’s guess that if China has a sensor net near seas. A network of sensors is needed to be effective. China’s near seas are hostile to subs and ASW is not necessary in a near sea defense doctrine.
But now that US is working on the land strike capability of subs off 1st island chain, it is necessary to develop ASW capability.
Japan doesn’t have the strategic depth to fight a total war with China. But Japanese navy is another matter. CN (China Navy as they are called today) is were aware if this. Its amateurs and people like @Reason who inflate CN’s blue water ambitions and try to pop the bubble.
It is natural for China to play around carrier tech with Varyag. It is also foolish to assume CN doesn’t know its limitations.
But something has to be said about PLA’s communication strategy. Its silence in contrast to the leaked pictures on the internet fueled discussions about it , once PLA announced it, the discussion died down. So China should be open about these developments.
SCdad07
“A journey of a Thousand Miles begins with A Single Step” -
Light speed with the space station!
John Chan
@Reason,
I must call you an ungrateful Westpac blogger. Without CCP’s small step approach to modernize its military, the situation in Asia would be a lot tenser. Chinese wanted to denote money to build aircraft carriers, the intended denotation was quoted to be more than one aircraft carrier, but the Chinese government turned the denotation down for sake of peace and prosperity of Asia and the world.
“PLA just isn’t a credible military on the world stage. Especially when it comes to naval warfare.” is a typical Westpac’s faulty mindset that “their past glory is a guarantee of their future success”. On the other they keep on accusing China living the past. The inconsistency and contradiction reflected in a typical anti-China blogger like Reason are overwhelming, if the Westpac people are so illogical and wicked, how can anyone to take their words seriously? It is really troubling.
Duke Chan
Reason: I very much agree with what you said. But please do CCP a favor by not telling the truth in your comment above. It hurts their feeling badly and also made Yang zi/ John Chan mad.
yang zi
@Duke Chan, you are juvenile.
Do you aware that Cham people has a claim to Spratley islands? Champa is an ancient kingdom for almost 2000 years until Vietnamese brutally killed off Cham people. Champa kingdom spans from current central Vietnam to near current Saigon. If Vietnam has any right to claim Spratley islands, it should be Champa kingdom claiming it.
Cham people are persecuted like Jews, dispersed and driven from its homeland. A Champa independence movement should reclaim the lost kingdom, like Jews did with Israel, enjoy the fruits of SCS oil.
Saigon should be returned to Cambodia. Vietnam has sealed off Cambodia’s access to SCS sea resources, while those resources are Cambodia’s.
Vietnam is a regional bully that has benefited by invading, killing and brutally treating Cham and other tribal people, it took their country, their land and their sea.
My concern is whether China should support Champa independence. there are still many Champa living on Chinese Hainan island,Cambodia and other SEA countries.
India should support Champa too, it is after all in Hindu kingdom originally.
Duke Chan
Yang: you forgot to mention Tibet.
Reason
@Yang Zi
Come on – we all know that the CCP can’t support any independence of any ethnic civilization because of its brutalization of the Tibetans… so you’re talking out your a*s
@John Chan
This new PLA Navy will sink just like the much vaunted 1895 Qing Navy – the only noticeable difference is that at least in 1895 China had decent ships made by Britain and Germany. This time they’re floating around in “Made in China” tin pots. It’s not looking good my friend. I’m only trying to cushion the blow for you when it actually happens.
Seriously, go and do some real study on the 1895 Naval Skirmish with Japan and start ticking some boxes.
Xenophobic, top down government – CHECK
Paranoid government, which needs the best trained troops to actually protect it and not fight – CHECK
Rampant corruption across all levels of society – CHECK
Captains and crews that have no experience – CHECK
Battle fleets that have no experience fighting in formation against an unpredictable or determined enemy – CHECK
A culture of providing sub standard supplies and equipment – CHECK
Huge big defensive projects that no one is prepared to defend – CHECK
A military culture that can not report the truth, for fear of repercussions – CHECK
An institutional educational system that stifles innovative thought and independent action – CHECK
Right now the PLAN is sailing out into the Pacific to engage in an invisible enemy, but like absolutely everything in China the results will be contrived to please those above them.
As the golden rule in China is – Everything you do should please the bosses, do not create waves and do not draw attention to yourself. In this kind of culture a military is hobbled before it even starts.
Cam
@yang zi,
You are spewing out again your trademark “ divide and conquer” tactics. You are talking nonsense. Can Vietnam reclaim Guangdong, Guangxi, and Hainan and maybe up to the Fukien as they used to be parts of NanViet country? I can use the same arguments like and I am sure the Tibetans, the Mongols and the Manchu can do the same. Unlike the Cham people in Vietnam, Unfortunately, except for the Tibetans, Mongols and Manchu are long gone; completely disappear into the “greater family of Han China”. What can we call this?
So stop your nonsense distraction from the debate!
John Chan
@Cam,
Vietnam is always welcome to join China again, by then Vietnamese can have the whole China as theirs just like all other Chinese who regards all China as their homeland, regardless they are Tibetans or Mongols.
Yang
@Cam, the big difference is, if China supports Champa independence, they might succeed. Since PLA went to Tibet, their population increased many times. Since you guys crushed Champa, Champa population dwindled.
You guys are brutal.
yang zi
@Cam, Manchus and Mongols are alive and well, thriving too. Tibetans population increased dramatically since 1950s. Cham population dwindled in Vietnam.
yang zi
@Cam, it is not the argument, it is the chance of succeeding. If China supports it, Champa has a big chance.
Andy
Listen to yourself, once. You – China – is the very reason for a lot of troubles going on right now. Think of it as prep work, my fellow earthling.
george_002
All this condescending attitude is born out of ignorance. Based solely on Feng opinion. Yet he nothing more than Chines military fan.He is not even engineer and certainly never set a foot on Chinese plane. He is just young guy recently graduated from Waterloo university now work as programmer for large brokerage house in New York .
He did good job of surveying Chinese BBS and filtering the rubbish, sometime he did excellent analysis like his recent rebuttal of Kanwa that always bad mouth Chinese military out of spike.
He was liked by Information dissemination blog because of his deferential attitude toward western technology in general
Here is his blog good article sometime http://china-pla.blogspot.com/
He is regular at Sinodefense forum
Large as it is Chinese defense budget is limited and for long time the ASW was neglected because there are more pressing need Chinese navy was way behind in 80. But now that most of the land border has settled and China is now the largest trading nation in the world.
She need to protect her SLOC . Now that money is available, the bulk of money will go toward the navy and air force.
China is not midget when it come to electronic. In fact it is her strength now China is neck in neck when it come to super computer.
Recently she built energy saving supercomputer using domestic microprocessor.
check this one out http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/china-outpaces-us-in-race-of-developing-supercomputer.html/2.
And this is not prototype in fact this is 2nd generation ASW plane. They have prototype that they have tested since 2007.
There is no need for Poseidon class platform . The recent why the change is because Lougheed stop producing Orion.
What you need is long endurance, long range and well integrated C4ISR.
This plane is Catalog III the latest in the long iteration of Y8. contrary to what people believe is totally domestic and power by domestic engine WJ6C and PL4 propeller and not Pratt and Whitney PT150.
China is subjected to the most rigorous embargo check ITAR so it inconceivable that PT 150 is used on this plane.
george_002
Sorry spite not spike
and Wojang (WJ 8C) From Global security
Here is an excellent story of Yunshu (Y
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-8.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/wj6.htm
And further development of the original transport plane into multipurpose surveillance and Elint, Awac plane from the highly reliable website of Huitong
http://cnair.top81.cn/y-8x_sh-5_a-50i.htm
CAMIO
@Reason:
Even the US military wants to establish a stable communication with the PLA. Do you think yourself more professional than the American Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff? I really suspect that you are just hating CCP by depreciating PLA’s capabilities. Developing a major combat platform as sophisticated as an aircraft carrier is not like creating an iPhone. The PLA knows clearly that owning the hull of a carrier is in no way equal to knowing how to use it in a combat. But this does not mean that the hull is a “junk”. This “junk” will be used in a way that you cannot even imagine as a rookie. Be aware that the first generation of PLA Navy “Pilot-Skipper” officers are nearly in their fifties. Each of those naval officers is not only able to fly a fighter but also to command a large surface combatant vessel such as a destroyer. Since graduation from the first four-year “Pilot-Skipper” program in PLA history, those dual degree holders have been gaining extensive experiences in all kinds of positions (commanding, staff, management, military academia, etc). Can you call them “junks”? What do you think were they doing in the past 20 years?
Building a blue navy is a highly sophisticated and systematic project. CCP is doing a fine job.
Reason
We’ll see soon enough how well the PLA Navy does
Dr No
This chap “reason” seemed a hate-filled person … spewing such hate-filled derisory words like “junk carrier”, “totally rubbish ASW equipment”, “continual incompetentance of the CCP”.
But where the U.S. and Japan is concerned, everything about them is credible and competent. Why does the Diplomat attracts so many sick people; People who seems to be totally brainwashed by Washington’s Hate Machine into psychotic anti-Chinese shell of a human being.
These battalions of psychos is Washington’s equivalent of Teheran’s Republican or Revolutionary Guards. What’s the difference? The Evil that is in Washington runs deep. Truly deep and wide.
a_canadian_observer
@Dr No: Not sure about Reason but your words seem much worse. I suggest you follow the CCP bloggers here first before judging people like Reason.
Grant
Interesting but it isn’t very troubling. It makes sense that China would invest in this and it isn’t an aggressive or unreasonable move. If my nation relied heavily on oceanic trade I would try to set submarine-killers too.
4th Horseman
John Chan, Oddly enough I found Reason’s comment to be pro-Chinese in a critical way. I see comments like Reasons on western military blog sites using the same language/criticism on their own countries projects. I read his comment as more a complain about wasteful spending than anything else.
John Chan
@4th Horseman,
I am surprised that you didn’t praise my comments as pro-West in a critical way. My comments are for the peace and prosperity of the world and humanity, and I am a fighter for liberty, equality, justice, freedom of speech and civility. I am dead against violence, prejudice, racism, exploitation, lying, and all the things undermine peace and prosperity of the world. Reason’s comments on this site definitely fit into the category of undermining peace and prosperity of the world.
Duke Chan
John Chan: ….” I am a fighter for liberty, equality, justice, freedom of speech and civility” then you should fight against the CCP instead being their mouthpiece.
Gabriel
4th Horseman … who are you trying to kid? “reason” is pro-China? That is like saying “black is white”. Kindly don’t take the readers for fools. You are no angel. Kindly get ye back into Hell from where you were spawned.
luhai
Looks like PLAN.. hmm China Navy is finally retiring the old SH-5s for ASW. Looks like the ducks and finally over powered the fishes in admiralty, let’s build more 054s and 052 to replace those even older jianghus and ludas that still made up the bulk of the surface fleet.
george_002
The percentage of new ship has gone up from 25% in 80’s to 50% now.Still in number of ship PLAN is behind US and Japanese navy.
They have been pumping out new ship like no tomorrow but still it take times to build a modern navy
Check this one out
http://centurychina.com/plaboard/posts/3899952.shtml
CAMIO
PLA’s Type 093 nuclear attack sub (Shang Class) was said to be even faster than the US Virginia Class. Regardless of the credibility of this, Type 093 should be respected in any way. Just remember how US carrier battle group withdrew when shadowed by an older Type 091 (Han Class) during the 1996 Taiwan Strait Crisis. No need to mention the tension experienced by British force casued by a single Argentine diesel submarine back to 1982 in Falkland Islands.
It was such a wise development plan proposed in 1986 by the PLA Navy in which submarines were given the highest priority, followed by the naval air force.
Reason
@John chan
You don’t know any Tibetans or Mongolians do you?
george_002
Reason Normally I don’t want to get into political discussion. but the study prove that Tibetan at the beginning of 20th century is on the brink of extinction because too many man enter the monastery and not enough men work on the field The total population of Tibet including Cham and Amdo(area under direct Chinese control) is only 2.5 million. The Tibetan in TAR number 1 million
Now total population of Tibet is 7.5 million people and 2.5 million in TAR
Check this reference out
http://thenewvoice.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/the-myth-of-tibet-genocide/
For a more scholastic approach check this one out
http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/tibetan.population.in.china.pdf
Reason
@George_002
You’re an idiot… Do you even understand Tibetan society on the most basic of levels?
These studies are CCP propaganda. The figures account for huge Han Chinese immigration and of course natural demographic increase since the beginning of the 20th Century – which has happened right across the globe. The Tibetans weren’t on the verge of extinction… you idiot!
Tibetan Society is based around the family and the village… It’s set up very well to survive the extreme conditions. practices such as brothers sharing one wife have been explicitly created in order to stop family wealth from being dispersed. Tibetan families, especially the villagers and even the Drokpas to some extend are very materially rich… but economically poor
life outside the immediate family is almost impossible.. the harsh climate means that the environment can’t support high levels of beggars. If you have no family, village or monastery you will die, really quickly – that’s a plain fact
In fact in Tibetan there wasn’t even a word for Beggar – the Tibetan word translates better as “Wolf Killer” which came from the idea that if a villager killed a wolf he would parade from house to house showing that a wolf (Enemy number one) had been killed. Villagers would then give him money– ala – Wolf killer, begging, or receiving money for his good deed. On top of this, traveling monks etc would beg if they were on pilgrimages – which is a way of creating good karma for the GIVER – so this type of begging is actually seen in a positive light…. likewise at Tibetan New Year… poorer Drokpas flood into the towns and cities and families openly beg for money on the street from the rich people. Again, this has to be seen in context and is actually sanctioned as it allows the richer city folk to give to the poor. This happens even today… go to Lhasa on Tibetan New Year and you will see rich, city Tibetans walking around with fistfuls of notes, looking to hand them out to drokpas. If you have no cultural context, this can easily be misconstrued as Tibetans are a bunch of beggars…. but it couldn’t be further from the truth
The notion that Tibet was full of beggars is a CCP myth – I’ll say it again. A CCP MYTH…. the CCP has taken pictures… probably taken by Joseph Rock and skewed them to their own wicked purpose. A picture of a half naked Tibetan kid is now “A starving serf, suppressed by his masters.” A normal picture of Tibetan’s tilling the fields becomes ” Tibetan serfs slave in the fields under the tyrannical rule of the monasteries.”
Here’s an experiment for anyone who really, truly believes in all that CCP Claptrap on Tibet – Get your a*s up to Tibet… see how long you last as a beggar…. you will either be a) taken in by someone’s kindness b) die really quickly – The Tibetan environment does not support huge populations of beggars, never has, never will -it’s a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY
It just isn’t feasible to have huge populations of destitute people in Tibet… the climate will kill them really quickly…. that’s a physical FACT.
The CCPs demonization of the Tibetan’s highly organized, sophisticated and proud culture is despicable.
george_002
Reason
Judging from your hyper venting expletive you are nothing but simpleton wearing a rose color tinted glass with no statistic or data to counter my argument.
All you do is mouthing the western propaganda to demonize China with no proof then went into tirade based on nothing but anecdote and has no relevant whatsoever with the subject under discussion. Just as Goebbels once said “lie repeated thousand time will become truth”
Read the account of Patrick French the director of Free Tibet director who went to Dharmasala to find any document or proof of the so called Genocide He can’t find anything zip big Nothing
So much for the credibility of so call Freedom fighter and human right defender Which nothing more than disguise racism
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/opinion/22french.html
These groups hate criticism almost as much as the Chinese government does. Some use questionable information. For example, the Free Tibet Campaign in London (of which I am a former director) and other groups have long claimed that 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese since they invaded in 1950. However, after scouring the archives in Dharamsala while researching my book on Tibet, I found that there was no evidence to support that figure. The question that Nancy Pelosi and celebrity advocates like Richard Gere ought to answer is this: Have the actions of the Western pro-Tibet lobby over the last 20 years brought a single benefit to the Tibetans who live inside Tibet, and if not, why continue with a failed strategy?
Reason
You’re an idiot… who knows nothing about Tibet and spews out CCP claptrap… I aint gonna waste another key tap on ya…
Mr. Won Hung Low
@ Reason,
Why are you wasting your time arguing with these brain washe CCP 50 cent bloggers?
typhoon
@Won Hung Low,
I am from Singapore and we have access to both Western and Chinese media from Mainland China, Hongkong and Taiwan. We have also posted our journalists to China for first hand news reporting.
I do not agree with you that anybody defending some nonsensical attack on China will automatically become brainwashed by CCP.
On the contrary, I found most Western media are biased against China and I think you are one of those who falls for it.
Australian Bloke
You can thank Bill Clinton (while in office) for giving China the super computer technology to design and create nukes and other goodies that are coming back to haunt you.
Valbonne
China have only 2 anti-submarine petrol airplanes while USA have over 200. So let me ask, what is the fuss about.
At the same Chinese planes are few generations behind compared to America’s.
typhoon
@Valbonne
China was thought to have the most 300 to 400 nuclear weapons, but suddenly they discover China had built a 3,500 miles long underground tunnels which can house between 3,000 to 4,000 Nuclear Missiles.
For your viewing pleasure please visit You Tube “China underground Great Wall”
By 2020, China will have at least 100 of these Anti-Submarine patrol airplanes and equal number of J-20 Stealth fighter.
US fleet of planes are needed to scatter all over the world, whereas China planes are flying near to her coastal water.