Since the midsummer slump in its relations with the Philippines and Vietnam, China has been taking diplomatic steps to repair the damage. Despite nationalistic calls for China to “think ahead and strike first” at Philippine and Vietnamese forces, as the reliably demagogic Global Times tub-thumped back in September, Beijing has been charting a much wiser course. After agreeing a new set of guidelines for implementing the declaration of conduct (DOC) in the South China Sea with ASEAN in July, with a formalized code of conduct still to come, China hosted Philippine President Benigno Aquino for fence-mending talks in early September, and received Vietnamese Secretary General Nguyen Phu Trong a month later.
However, while the tone of the diplomatic exchanges has certainly improved, the after-effects of their run-in with the region’s rising superpower are still crystallizing in Manila and Hanoi. For the Philippines came the realization that their military was hopelessly ill-equipped to protect the country’s interests against pretty much any regional armed forces, let alone the People’s Liberation Army. And for Vietnam, it was apparent that the military modernization strategy that had already been set in train should not only continue, but should be prosecuted more enthusiastically than ever.
These, then, are the predictable consequences of China’s pushy few months in the South China Sea. This week, South Korean President Lee Myung-bak has been in Manila, and Aquino has been pressing him on the acquisition of Korean military equipment, including ships and aircraft. Lee reciprocated by providing $500 million in soft loans: South Korea is already forging an important defense relationship with Indonesia, and a potentially lucrative opportunity with another Southeast Asian partner is now apparently there for the taking. In particular, the Philippines urgently needs to re-equip its air force’s currently aircraft-less combat arm, and it may be that Aquino is tapping the South Koreans to help make that happen. The Philippine Navy also badly needs new ships: South Korea builds those, too.
Earlier this month, the Philippine Navy announced procurement progress on another front, saying that it was close to completing a deal for a second ex-U.S. Navy cutter (the first having been acquired in August). We may be witnessing the beginning of a quiet U.S. effort to re-equip the Philippine military with surplus kit, which is exactly what some in Washington have been lobbying over for some time. While 40-year-old cutters aren’t about to give the Philippines a navy that can match China’s, they will at least provide the country with some sort of functioning deterrent – something it sorely lacks at the moment. Manila is also stumping up modest procurement funds of its own, meaning that the long-neglected Armed Forces of the Philippines may finally be able to move ahead with capability plans that have been starved of funds for far too long. The Philippine commanders, next time they meet their Chinese counterparts at a regional summit, really ought to buy them a beer.
Vietnam, meanwhile, announced this week a $3.3 billion defense budget for 2012 – a 35 percent increase over the previous year’s budget, which was itself officially a 70 percent rise on 2010. While these figures are open to interpretation, given the absence of transparency surrounding the country’s defense spending (which is probably already far more than the advertised $3.3 billion), the upwards trend is easy to credit. Bear in mind the parlous state of the Vietnamese economy, which is being dragged down by debt and rampant inflation, and the sustained emphasis on defense spending underlines the fact that Hanoi remains highly uncomfortable in China’s close company.
As with the Philippines, part of the solution has been to strengthen alliances. In September, Vietnam boosted its defense ties with Germany, before deepening strategic relations with India, Russia, the UK, and the United States in October and November. It’s easy to see China’s outline through this flurry of diplomatic activity.
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Yang zi
I bet S. Vietnamese exiles are getting ever more captivated by their victor VietCong. They are cheering for Vietcong soldiers that kicked their behind. Vietcong is having a blast enjoying a feast, while S. V. exiles are salivating, frustrated and shouting out how to eat that feast.
Vietnam has every right to enhance it military. Every country in Asia should beef up to protect its interests, after all, west does not have an exclusive right for strong militaries.
It would be interesting to see how much China will increase to its defense budget. The treasury is flush with soaring revenue. In light of coming recession world wide, China should start a jobs program to improve its industrial quality.
John Chan
Perhaps arm race is one of the ways to starve off recession. Go Vietnam go, buy some F-35, C-130, etc. from the USA is even better.
Johnathon Vu
Nah…, I heard that VN is going to buy the J-20 from China; best fighter jet on Earth.
Kane
F-22, Typhoon, Rafael and Gripen are much better than China’s J-20 which is not even in service yet.
Grant
Arms races aren’t that useful to rescue an economy. Now a major war between two powerful nations can be, but that isn’t especially likely in the near future and any likely clashes in East Asia would probably be over too quickly to be profitable.
Yang zi
@Grant, care to explain? I never understood how a war is good for economy. I guess it is for winners to take spoils?
WWII created jobs, expanded workforce. But if not for the market and free trade it created after WWII, US wouldn’t be able to pay down the debt.
Modern wars doesn’t allow overtly taking spoils. Iraq war didn’t give US oil, may be benefited US oil companies, but US paid high oil price and much more.
The free trade and market expansion is already happening, a war will not improve this much.
Grant
Specifically I was referring to wars between other nations besides the U.S. The price of food, energy and raw materials rise and everyone wants to buy them. A war between the U.S and a nation such as China would not benefit more than a very specific part of the economy, the arms industry. In the same manner, an arms race between two nations besides the U.S would benefit the arms industry, but would not benefit the country as a whole. However since the U.S is now the most powerful nation on the planet, something that upsets the status quo like a major war really wouldn’t be justified by economic gain.
the southeastasian
Hey, i miss you in the discussion on the related topic of Ming Pei on The Diplomat!
Sat That
There’s only one people, the Vietnamese people of the Nation, Vietnam. There’s nothing called S. Vietnamese or N.Vietnamese here! That’s just the by-product of the past bloody proxy war b/w the Communist bloc (commie China& Soviet Union) and the Free World (US & its allies). The Vietnamese people are just the innocent victims of this dirty struggle for sphere of influence in SEA! The current communist regime in VN is just a blip in our long history. It must go or transform into something better or be discarded! That’s purely the rule of evolution. Presently, communist China with its hegemonic ambitions and its extreme nationalism has been the grave threats to the whole world in general and the Vietnamese people in particular! The entire Vietnamese people regardless of living abroad or inside the country will unite against any aggressive menaces from their evil northern neighbor, China! World loves peace not war! Any dark force with devilish schemes to wage war in order to rule the world will be defeated and destroyed!China with its current stumbling economy will surely need peace not war to heal its wounds in the coming days if it wants to survive & exist! That’s just the stark reality for China at least for now!
yang zi
@Sat That, you need to read your own history. N. Vietnam conquered S. Vietnam long time ago that created current Vietnam. N. Vietnam did it again in 1970s.
Ly Tran Le Nguyen
Your silly assertion about N. Vietnam conquering S. Vietnam is similar to China’s attempt to “divide and conquer” Vietnam. It had tried many times in the past and it achieved some successes by dragging the Vietnam War longer than it should. A Vietnam fighting among itself is no threat to China, same as a divided Korean peninsula. However, in the end the Viets realized who their real common enemy was and thus, whenever it comes to China, the Viets are all united. In 1979, even exiled Vietnamese cheered for Vietnam’s triumphant defeat of the PLA at their respective borders.
Sat That
Our ancestors from the north had moved southwards to establish this current Vietnam, our beloved motherland many centuries before. I don’t know what kind of history you’ve learnt ! Maybe it was written by the CCP historians trained to distort all historical facts about other countries (e.g. south & east china seas were China’s own lakes!!)!Hope the Chinese people will realize this some day!
Yang zi
@Sat That, so when your ancestor came down to south, what happened to people in the south? They opened their welcoming arms? The fact is kingdoms in the south were destroyed. Southern people either stayed or ran to Cambodia.
John Chan
No wonder Vietnamese bloggers ever respond to letting the Internal Court of Justice to rule on the Southern Vietnam whether it should be returned to the Khmer, the Kingdom of Cambodia.
Cam
@yang zi,
Your lack of reading makes you a fool in front of Vietnamese when it comes to Vietnam history. See my advices for you down below.
KL
Canadian observer, why would they care about the 2 year old girl? Many baby girls were drowned by their own fathers, a by product of their one child policy. In order to have a boy to carry their family names, they would kill their own daughters. No animals would kill their offspring unless that animal walks on two and called Chinese.
Cam
@yang zi,
You seem pretty much living in the past. The Vietnam war was over 35 years ago, almost those soldiers on all side involved are perhaps long gone or about gone. Old enemies like American, Australian, Korean, and Japan become friends with the Vietnamese. For Vietnamese themselves, I have to admit, there are still some rifts lingering between North and South but one thing for sure, to the Vietnamese regardless of what their political view might be, they are united to deal with the Chinese. If you are familiar enough with Vietnam history, you might see this is unique characteristics of the Vietnamese throughout their struggling history against big bad bully China.
I encourage you spend some time reading their history to know what I am talking about and also you might know something about the people you might hate the most.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vietnam
yang zi
@Cam, you know Who used to rule Saigon, don’t you? how about Champa kingdom?
yang zi
@Cam,
I have long suspected you guys are brain washed by your distorted history lessons. North Vietnamese has been aggressors who conquered southern and western kingdoms and tribes. Champa people fought Vietnamese aggression fiercely but lost. there are only 100k Cham people left in today’s Vietnam. read this you wood heads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champa
Khmer empire used to rule Saigon until Vietnamese came in 17th century.
You guys are hypocrites, You complain about Chinese aggression, but you yourself are aggressors.
Cam
@yang zi,
That is true that the Vietnamese absorbed Cham in the middle and Khmer empire in the south during the southward expansion. I personally feel for those people who were weaker and this is a bloody stain in Vietnam history , where a weak bullied a weaker (I did visit those Cham villages in PhanRang and NhaTrang during the last time I visited Vietnam 10 years ago). But this was happened a couple of hundred years ago and we live in the present time where the law of jungle using force to take lands is unacceptable and should be condemned.
Would the Cham get the land back? Or Would the Vietnamese get Guangdong and Guangxi back? Just a wishful thinking.
Minh Lam
@Cam, who cares about what the Chinese CCP bloggers think. We are who we are (Vietnamese).
For me, deep down I know that, many of us indeed carried some Chinese blood, but, in the morden World, we are simply Vietnamese now. Our loyalty to Vietnam motherland is uncondtional and unquestionable.
How could you not love Vietnam when Vietnamese and either French or English or all three are the only languages you speak? How could you like China, when all you heard about China is their bullying behaviours and their nasty expansionist dreams? The Chinese from China have been living in isolation for so long, they have forgotten that this is 21st century. The Sino-centric way of life in Asia during the pre 18th century period has long gone. The lawlessness and gunboat policy of pre 19th century has become a humanity’s crime in this century.
One day, when China became a friendly and peaceful country, I would still love to take my family to visit China. Having said that, in the meantime, if our Chinese cousins would still want to claim our belongings, then, with all costs, we’ll have to beat them. Like they said, let’s fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee!
Sinodefender
All humans are invaders we all started out in Africa and undeniably ethnic groups absorbed foreign lands and peoples. Playing the Baiyue card,I doubt Vietnamese are the direct descendants of Luoyue and Ouyue(not sure if its Ouyue or XiOu) even if they are the Chinese minorities such as Zhuang could also claim origin and if you believe what some Vietnamese nationalists claim that Southern Han are actually Bai yue then Chinese do have a claim.
a_canadian_observer
@Sinodefender: Look who’s re-appeared! Have you been out on a CCP training? I’m not seeing any much improvement, based on your comments here.
Yang zi
@SinoDefender, zhuang and Dai people in China are ethnic brothers of people in Tailand. Tailand people migrated from China and created their own magnificent kingdom.
Cham people are proud people with great culture. N. Vietnameses destroyed their homeland, committed genocide. They forbid intermarriage between Vietnamese and Cham, they ordered to kill all the Chams in the capital region.
To this day, Cham people spread across Asia, Some escaped to China’s hainan island.
The S. Vietnamese exiles are either repressed Cham, Cham related, or the descendants of original killers who slaughtered Cham people. I think most Vietnames posters are those people.
No wonder they are so belligerent, they have the tradition.
Sinodefender
@ a_canadian_observer Seems like all you can do is to insult others and insist I’m a member of the CPP,btw keep on spreading your propaganda that Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue its amusing.
@ Yang zi,thanks for the information. The descendants of Champa on Hainan are the Utsuls for some reason the PRC labels them as Hui.
the southeastasian
@yang zi: Do you know that the most important factor makes a Vietnam today with its united “belligerent” peoples is the Imperial China in the past and the modern China with its mindset of 18th/19th centuries. Think twice before attacking Vietnam!
HHop
Vietnam or the Phillipines, or anyone else for that matter, will do their best to give a much stronger aggressor a poison pill to swallow should it ventures too far. Historically Chinese has never been happy with their drive to expand southward. Oversea Vietnamese might wish to see the current oppressive Communist regime to fade away into history, but they will take up arms together for a common cause.
As for arm race, it was what killed of the Soviet Union. It will disintegrate your empire the same way.
Grant
Vietnam is actually a bit troubling. While it was obvious that it would spend more on defense this may be spending more than it really should.
Duke Chan
With its strategic locations, 3.3 billion increased in defense budget would make China to think twice before making any aggressive moves.
John Chan
China’s population is 15 times Vietnam’s population, Wiki lists China’s military expenditure is 114 billion in 2010, proportionally Vietnam’s military expenditure should be 9.6 billion, now Vietnam is only going to spend 3.3 billion for 2012, it is only 1/3 of what it should spend.
Why doesn’t Vietnam spend its rightful amount of money on military to be the tough guy in SE Asia? Without spending the right amount, how can Vietnam a voice to be reckoned with in ASEAN? VN bloggers must raise the question, and demand VN government to increase military spending right away.
yang zi
@John Chan, people usually use GDP to calculate defense budget, $3.3b is 3+% of Vietnamese GDP, high but not too high.
Philippines are very shrewd. it only spend 0.8% of GDP on military, yet still asking for handouts. they should pony up more to buy US equipment. I think US is been had by Philippines.
John Chan
@yang zi,
Vietnamese are very bellicose; they always want to teach China a lesson. I believe they deserve a justification to achieve their dream, so I provide them a reasonable excuse to spend more on the military.
Cam
@john chan,
You keep spewing out lies after lies shamelessly. Since when Vietnam want to teach China a lesson? I believe it otherwise around. Your logic is seriously flawed but I see you never care of what is coming out of your stinky mouth. Looks like you are programmed by the CCP. Come on, try to be a rebel, just once, pulling out the chip implanted in you to become a human being again.
John Chan
@Cam,
It always amazes me that bellicose trait of Vietnamese bloggers; just look at your comment, no a single word of reasoning, but all of foul mouthing, and smearing baselessly.
Cam, can you do a civilized debate like the Chinese bloggers with reasons?
Shanghaier
How is this reminding me of the rethoric in Europe in the first half of the 20th century?
And I’m not so sure China is flush with cash. The government is not paying much these days and have a very big out-standing debt.
yang zi
Chinese revenue is surging 30% over last year, read this
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-07-19/china-s-surging-revenue-counters-local-government-debt-risk.html
james_001
China is flushed with cash to the amount of 3 trillion dollars. They purposely held back on defense spending. Spending around 91 billion dollar or 1.5% of their GDP toward defense. The lowest percentage of all the major power in the world . US spend 4.5% of their GDP. British and French 2.5%. Even India spend 2.5% of GDP. Only the Japanese spend lower 1% of their GDP.
China can easily spend 2.5% with no problem at all. But the strength of China is that they are almost self sufficient in the armament thanks to the embargo. Combined with booming civilian technology, China now can design,build any weapon comparable to the best in the World. This is the fact that the west is hard to swallow therefore all these innuendo of copying, stealing etc
I think it is folly trying to compete with China. Eventually economic power will translate into military power.Right now the Vietnamese economy is not doing well. Hyperinflation, growing deficit.
Vietnam better spend their money to improve the living standard of their people and learn from their history and make accommodation with China. In the past for price of accepting Chinese suzerainty they were left alone. Yes they beat the Ming but winning one battle doesn’t necessary winning the war and The old Vietnam know that.
yang zi
James_001, where do you get $3T number? what I read is Chinese treasury receipts is on tract to be over 10T RMB, 30% over last year. using current exchange rate, it is $1.58T.
US receipt is $2.2T, if China spend the same proportion of revenue on defense as US (20% of deficit ed $3T budget, 31% of $2.2T income), China’s defense spending should be $490B.
if China increases its currency by 20% as some wish, it would be $590b. on par with US!
but NO, it is crazy to spend that much. somewhat more than current is fine. don’t exceed 2.5% GDP ($150b, India spends 2.7%), just do some more auditing to these money.
james_001
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/03/c_131228263.htm
BEIJING, Nov. 3 (Xinhua) — China’s imports and exports reached a record high of more than 3 trillion U.S. dollars as of Nov. 2, according to preliminary calculations, the General Administration of Customs (GAC) said on Thursday.
Despite global economic uncertainties, the country’s foreign trade maintained steady growth this year, the GAC said in a brief statement on its website.
China’s imports and exports exceeded the symbolic 1-trillion-U.S.-dollar mark and 2-trillion-U.S.-dollar mark in 2004 and 2007, respectively, according to the statement
China GDP as of end of 2010 is 6 trillion dollar so 1.5% is 90 billion dollars Assuming 12% increase in defense spending next year it should be above 100 billion dollars.
From 1990 to late 1999 China only spend 20 billion dollar because there are other pressing need plus it doesn’t make sense to raise defense spending when the underlying civilian technology is backward.
http://milexdata.sipri.org/result.php4
Only in the late 90 China did start to increase defense spending.
Remember SIPRI data include adjustment factor of 1.5 from official Chinese sources
yang zi
James_001, I am talking about revenue, you are talking about trade, two different thing. revenue is the money collect through taxes and other income by the government. this money is how much Chinese government can spend in a balanced budget
james_001
Trade surplus is China reserves It is real money that they can use in an emergency
You are talking about revenue is something else
scott s
Three Trillion is not as much as it once was. The US economy even in the dumps is at 15 trillion a year.We spend three or four times what you do on defense. 119 billion aint sh it buddy. With all that you spend and you still dont have a blue water navy. You are a regional power at best. Just becuase something looks similar does not make it even. You guys steal technology and try to backward engineer it, sometimes you succeed sometimes you dont. We always succeed because we designed and built it. You can ask anybody, China’s navy and air force is no match for the US and neither is there army. So keep picking on the little guys around SEA until your ba ll drop then come ring the door bell, we will be waiting,
yang zi
@scott s, Chinese economy is $6t, not $3t. nobody is saying Chinese mil tech is better, Chinese generals themselves said China is behind US by 20 to 30 years. why are you so defensive?
Cam
@yang zi,
People are upset because China is only capable of bullying the little guys in SEA using her massive size.
james_001
Scott ever heard of PPP(Purchasing parity power) ?
Chinese engineer salary is only 20,000/yr compare to 80,000/yr
Food in China is dirt cheap and so is service
In other word 100 billion dollar go a long way in China than in US If you want to compare it multiply it by 1.7 roughly
Assuming Chinese renminbi increase by 5% per year It will add up over the years
Chinese defense spending grow by average of 12% per year while US has to reduce defense spending by approximately 600 billion dollar over the next 10 years
Cam
@james_001,
“Food in China is dirt cheap”, if I were you, I wouldn’t brag about Chinese foods as well as services in these days. Quality is what matters. That is why those things are cheap.
John Chan
@scott s,
Smearing baselessly due to jealousy, resentment and fear does not help USA reclaim its lost grounds; only facing reality, learning from the opponents and working hard to catch up are the only way to win.
Your “only the West can succeed and only the West can invent” fallacy is deadly to the USA’s recovery; it is only beneficial to China if every American is behaving like you.
Bragging on the hot air does not mean US military is mighty, it only soothes you empty ego, but does not prevent American soldiers from dying.
Andy
Right on, Scott.
John Chan
@Shanghaier,
China’s foreign debt is 640 billions, and China’s foreign reserve is 3,200 billions. Please let me know which part can make you to fabricate your statement “And I’m not so sure China is flush with cash”?
The Insider
Just got back to the US from Vietnam. Words passing around in VN is, “go with China loose the country or go with the US loose the Party”. Since CCP has pushed their VCP comrades too hard, it’s more than likely, VN will loose the Party.
The Vietnamese-Americans, British-Vietnamese, French-Vietnamese, German-Vietnamese, Russian-Vietnamese, Canadian-Vietnamese, Japanese-Vietnamese, Australian-Vietnamese, etc. are working within their political mainstreams in each of their new home country to support Vietnam motherland.
Vietnam has recently signed MOU or Defense treaties with various major powers around the World.
Billions of USD are currently pouring into VN from millions of Vietnamese origin in the US, Canada, Australia, EU, etc. to help the country and their relatives in Vietnam. More are on the way. This time it won’t be like 1979 or 1988.
John chan
@The Insider,
Please be realistic, overseas Vietnamese are not Overseas Chinese, they don’t have the financial means to do what you are dreaming about. If overseas Vietnamese could do what your are bragging, VN won’t be in that poor shape now.
yang zi
@John Chan, overseas Vietnamese are resourceful. they make bundle in nail parlors and Pho restaurants. a lot of them are ethnic Chinese Vietnamese though.
Lam Tran
John Chan and Yang Zi,
Sorry to say, you don’t know about us. Though our grand parents came from China, but we have integrated into Vietnamese society for so many decades, mates. We are Vietnamese now. Nothing to do with China,at all.
Huy Hoang
@The Insider,
Thanks info. Chinese CCP bloggers would never understand how the Vietnamese kept winning one war to another since the birth of our nation. I guess, as our elder generations called it: “It’s the element of surprise, stupid!”.
As China’s CCP became more aggressive in the East Sea, more Vietnamese sending financial supports back to the motherland. Below is some info for John Chang and Yang Zi to learn something new and stop fabricating things which are beyond of their intellectual capability.
More Vietnamese abroad send money back to their homeland
http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2010-08-18-vietnamremittances18_ST_N.htm
Please, don’t tell us the current Germany’s Vice Chancellor is also Chinese origin!
Philip Roelser, Young Vietnamese Descent, to Become New German Economy Minister
http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/05/philip-roelser-young-vietnamese-descent-to-become-new-german-economy-minister.html
yang zi
are you insane @Huy Huong, that guy is adopted when he was 9 month old! sure you can be proud, but what is that to do with what we are talking about? is he sending money back to Vietnam?
as for remittance, $8b is nice, but it is far behind Philippines at $18b, behind Bangladesh’s $10b. I am not sure the remittance number reflect anything.
Holmes o.
@Yang Zi, I bet you Philip R. did and still does. It’s a long story, but to cut it short, just before the fall of Saigon in 1975, thousands of kids in Vietnam got adopted and brought back to different countries around the World, by many powerful and wealthy families for raising.
Time goes by and over three decades later, many of those childrens have become very successful in their adopted countries; of course with the unconditional love and supports from their parents and their network of friends and relatives. Personally, I met many of those (who are now very important people) in the UK, Germany, France and especially in Canada and the US.
Like others, the first thing we did after University graduation was to visit Vietnam with our adopted parents and in search for our natural parents. Though we are not really Vietnamese by nationality, but deep in the heart, Vietnam will always be the country we loved and cared for.
China is a great country with full of wonderful history, however, if conflicts break out between China and Vietnam, people like us will have no choice but, united together across the Globe in order to support Vietnam.
Chin Chiu
Confirmed. Multi Billions of USD has been sent to Vietnam during 2010 fiscal year. Various reliable sources also confirmed that, almost double the amount of 2010 has been sent back to Vietnam for 2011.
More Vietnamese abroad send money back to their homeland
http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2010-08-18-vietnamremittances18_ST_N.htm
Huy Hoang
@The Insider,
Thanks info. Chinese CCP bloggers would never understand how the Vietnamese kept winning one war to another, since the birth of our nation. I guess, as our elder generations called it: “It’s the element of surprise, stupid!”.
As China’s CCP became more aggressive in the East Sea, more Vietnamese sending financial supports back to the motherland. More Vietnamese abroad send money back to their homeland
http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2010-08-18-vietnamremittances18_ST_N.htm
Please, don’t tell us the current German Vice Chancellor is also Chinese origin! Philip Roelser, Young Vietnamese Descent, to Become New German Economy Minister http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/05/philip-roelser-young-vietnamese-descent-to-become-new-german-economy-minister.html
Observer
I love it when other posters debate by provide links and articles to back up their statements while chinese posters just provide empty words and boastings/bragging and name calling.
What is the matter, chinese posters? Would you guys dispute with well know neutral sources or just more empty words? What did they teach you guys in school?
yang zi
here are 2 links for you:
http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/nov/05/slide-show-1-india-is-world-number-1-in-remittances.htm
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2010/02/philippines_and_its_remittance_economy
Observer
@ yang zi – before I reply with more links for you, I have this one for you to reply before we go any further. What is the matter?
http://the-diplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2011/11/14/u-s-counters-chinese-bases/#respond
Observer
Big bully china needs to learn that the bigger you are, the harder you fall.
Those that ignore history WILL DOOM to repeat it.
John Chan
@Observer,
Do you mean it is the USA who needs to learn that the bigger it is, the harder it falls? Shouldn’t you tell your master USA that truth?
Observer
@ jc – so now I am an American and live in the USA?
You chinese posters need to make up your mind. Frank said I am from “dirty East India”, you said I am from US, another clueless chinese said I am from France.
Which is which? I am from china, living in Nanjing, hehehehehe
Leonard R.
Maybe we are related Observer. The Wu Mao’ers accuse me of being an Indian, a Vietnamese & a Redneck from the American South.
I’ll say this much for them. The little emperors are entertaining.
HHop
All, have you stopped buying Chinese-made anything, to the best of your ability? From wherever you are? The Chinese refused to grow up, despite not-so-subtle admonition by Obama.
yang zi
@HHop, boycotting free commerce only hurts you. you might as well skip xmas shopping.
I never shun Vietnamese products. I love Japanese cars, all my cars are Japanese made, except one dodge charger. If you go to a Chinese supermarket, it is filled with Vietnamese products. I just bought a gift from a Vietnamese owned store.
You are too worked up on the SCS thing. China and Vietnam have a lot of things going on together. Vietnam just won the chess match over China in a recent tournament. there are over fifty thousand Vietnamese high tech types working in the city of ShenZhen alone. You S. Vietnamese guys just want to use SCS to cause trouble to N. Vietnamese VCP, and you are trapped and believing your own lies.
HHop
@Yang Zi,
You have done your fair share of citing how great Chinese economy has been, and how much extra money Chinese devotes to military spending. The result is that China has started to cause unrest across the Indo-Pac region. I do not subscribe to the idea that China is a benevolent nation, leading the region toward some greater Asian cause. Asian has been fooled once by the Japanese version leading to WW2. I only see Chinese gunboats harassing its weaker neighbors. You have done enough damage to have caused the current situation. War starts at home. Boycotting Chinese made goods EVERYWHERE is an excellent deed Asians can do today.
davida
its interesting to see how vietnam or philipine is actually able to shake off the economic constraints and move on with this defense binge. never was there a country that could actually accomplish the feat of beefing up their defense on the economic ruins.
that is exactly what chinese intend to do. just beating around the bushes with a little sabre-rattling, china has some shock waves rippling throughout the entire region. even might usa is feeling the heat. while all others are toiling to keep up the arm-race, china is laughing their ass off about stupidity and gullibility of their follies.
come on folks, in this economic turmoil, wake up to their cunning plan.
Observer
Before the chinese posters brag about how great china is, go look at this link.
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
Those pictures were taken by chinese photographer. See how nasty it is? Yuck.
Property buble in china is about to bust = http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/11/08/chinas-housing-bubble-past-and-its-future/
Also, look up on YouTube “last train home” (without quote) and see for yourself how most of chinese live.
Make you wonder why chinese would not brag about those problems?
Observer
@ All chinese posters in this forum:
It has been a few days and so far, no one, not a chinese poster dare to dispute my link about china? Come on guys, where are all of your bragging and boasting about how great china is?
What is the matter?
Huang
The recent territorial disputes between China-Vietnam and China-Phillipines are best analyzed by looking at the core(causes). As though they were part of a plan, the common denominators here are China on the hand and the US on the other(all others are proxies).
For China,these causes should be known so suitable remedies can be employed. By doing so,China not only contributing to the interests of China, but the entire Asia-Pacific region as a whole. At this juncture of globalizations coupled with the current global economic downturn, China’s rational and practical propositions are crucial to the future of the entire regional environment.
Incidentally, the other two claimants in question each have their distinctive reasona and purposes. China, being the party not under any kind of influences, should play a more active role in smoothing out the problems however small they may be at this time.
Vietnam and the Phillipines are strictly persuing their short-term goals and these goals should be made known to other ASEAN members since they are members of ASEAN.
Finally, communications and interactions are neccessay to bridge these narrow gaps even when the likelihood of them getting any wider are next to zero. The common goal(building a great Asia) of China and ASEAN should not be allowed to go astray by what Sun Tze described as ‘Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory; and Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”
yang zi
@Huang, wise words.
I think Hu/China lost the focus on foreign policy. lost discipline on SCS. foreign ministry, even military are not in control of SCS issue. the driving force seems to be regional economic interests of coastal provinces and energy lobbyist. once some conflict occurred, US saw an opening and made a lot of waves out of it.
Only US can afford freelancing interest groups impact foreign policy, not China, especially in this global high anxiety period.
there will be more global turmoils coming, some of them will involve China, China should get its ducks in a row. Use discipline, calm and confidence. just like recent response to Obama’s air boxing.
Cam
@Huang,
You are trying to water down the volcano in east asia to make China as a victim. The 9 dotted line map and China’s thugging behaviors caused lots of waves in the East sea. What Vietnam and the Philippines doing are purely defensive. It is involving Uncle Sam because the treaties she has with her allies in Asia Pacific. Like I mentioned before, Vietnam could have been a good ally to the lonely China due to ideology and many of commonalties but China turned Vietnam into an enemy and push them to be an ally of the old enemy, America.
I believe China should adjust her policies to win back her neighbors but I doubt the CCP could do that.
yang zi
@Cam, the most conciliatory tones to Vietnam I heard from China are from PLA! Surprising! Many Vietnamese senior officers have trained together with their Chinese counterparts and they shared experience in Vietnam war. but this generation is dying, VCP and CCP are putting their own national interest first, not ideology.
Vietnam is forever locked with China,by history and geology. China hasn’t gave enough attention to Vietnam, although China as helped Vietnam in gaining independence from French and winning the Vietnam war, but Vietnam has tried hard to break away from its destiny with China. 1979 war is the result of Communist camp split, with Vietnam picking USSR over China.
This time I do hope China can do it right, Vietnam should be realistic too. I fully support Vietnam making moves to strengthen its position, to expect otherwise is unrealistic. this 200billion oil thing is driving everybody crazy. In reality, the disputed area between Vietnam and China has very little of it.
If you look at the agreement between VCP and CCP, it is pretty concrete. Neither VCP or CCP can make bold moves to upset population, but they can make moves to accommodate each other. I think SCS thing will cool down between China and Vietnam, not sure about Philippines though.
Cam
@yang zi,
Again, you guys should ask this question yourself: why, with so many fateful experiences with China like you mentioned, the Vietnamese always try to keep a watchful eye on China? What is on China’s mind when dealing with the “southern brother”? We Vietnamese do have those answers but I let you to find out for yourself.
a_canadian_observer
@Cam: Of all the CCP bloggers, Huang is of the most dangerous type, Yangzi is second, and the rest are just shallow.
Huang
@Cam,
Although I would not view the recent tensions(or accurately,distractions)as even a “tiny spark” nor would I in any way see them as a volcano(extinct,dormant,or active), I would just see these temporary break-downs requiring repairs or patch-ups but NOT total replacements of machinaries(Governments) on the long path to a better Asia.
Of course, Vietnam has it reasons to temporarily changing its positions while knowing these are short-term tactics factions within Vietnam(at the same time must be watchful of the over-seas Viets sent back to topple Vietnam’s hard-earned Socialist foundations) believe would solve their economic problems at hand. The solutions are only footsteps away-China. Vietnam and the Phillipines can both take steps beyond that blinding fog where cooperations with China on all aspects would be more realistic in tackling the ills both countries now struggling to heal.
In short, these and many other difficulties are NOT new and so they should be views as opportunities instead of despairs as Lau Tzu also observed during his time and saw the need to fore-warn us by this statement,”All things have their origin in that which is easy and great things in that which is small”.
Temujin
Chinese are very shrewd, clever, sneeky, and greedy. I am witnessing:
China’s manufacturing base is faltering day by day. Its economic growth is rapidly slowing due to reciprocal trade barriers being erected by USA/Western nations and Japan, in retaliation for Chinese deceptive and immoral practices. It desperately lacks resources to sustain itself. It has a rapidly aging and unproductive population. Its grinding poverty is at a record 34% and climbing. All the while it is malignantly attempting to provoke an untenable military race with USA, which it cannot win. It has made enemies out of all nations surrounding it and beyond, save for its terrorist progenies of North Korea and Pakistan. Basically, China is on brink of total collapse internally. Even its capability of rare-earth mineral production and manufacturing, is rapidly shifting out of China and steadily moving to nations like India. In addition to this, China has foolishly decided to challenge the might of its giant sleeping neighbor India, in a confrontation it is sure to lose. China has only about another 10-15 years before it starts to become a failed state. What is most likely to happen in China as poverty rapidly accelerates, is massive civil unrest, and clamor for political/social change. This will lead to a massive fissures socio-ethnic fault lines to erupt. Nations like India and other Asian and European nations must rapidly move away from trade with China as fast as possible, if they want to protect themselves from this economic fallout on their economies and society
a_canadian_observer
@Temujin: Very well said!
John Chan
@Temujin,
I didn’t Temujin was an Indian. Anyhow, as long as India is a caste society that discriminate and abuse human being by birth, India is not going to do well. What you said fits perfectly to India instead of any other nation in the world.
800 millions of poor and starving Indians and uncontrolled population growth in India are indeed a massive fissures social-ethnic fault lines to erupt.
Your ill-wishes will not change ever increasing trades between India and China.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: At least we don’t hear of any wounded 2-year-old child being left to die while 18 people passed by and didn’t give a damn.
james_001
There are inconsiderate people everywhere. But to dehumanize China because of the action of 18 people is grossly exaggeration.
Compare to intentional killing of children in Pakistan due to collateral damage. It is nothing
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/u-s-bombs-and-kills-168-pakistani-children-why-are-the-pakistanis-such-ungrateful-and-cruddy-allies/
The blame should go to the mother in first place What kind of mother left unattended child on busy street That is gross negligent in highest order.
the Child rearing responsibility is primarily fall on the family
james_002
There are inconsiderate people everywhere. But to dehumanize China because of the action of 18 people is grossly exaggeration.
Compare to intentional killing of children in Pakistan due to collateral damage. It is nothing
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/u-s-bombs-and-kills-168-pakistani-children-why-are-the-pakistanis-such-ungrateful-and-cruddy-allies/
The blame should go to the mother in first place What kind of mother left unattended child on busy street That is gross negligent in highest order.
the Child rearing responsibility is primarily fall on the family
george_002
There are inconsiderate people everywhere. But to dehumanize China because of the action of 18 people is grossly exaggeration.
Compare to intentional killing of children in Pakistan due to collateral damage. It is nothing
http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/08/u-s-bombs-and-kills-168-pakistani-children-why-are-the-pakistanis-such-ungrateful-and-cruddy-allies/
The blame should go to the mother in first place What kind of mother left unattended child on busy street That is gross negligent in highest order.
the Child rearing responsibility is primarily fall on the family
Yang zi
@Vietnamese-observer, all you do is take pot shots. Try write something with some meaning.
John Chan
@a_candaian_observer,
You must be kidding; in Canada elder sister and her husband made her younger sister and other girls as sex slaves, and churches sexually abused native kids and the Canadian government covered the scandals for decades. I can list the immoral deeds on and on.
Are you sure you are a Canadian? How can you never let those ugly facts arose your anger and raise a finger to bash your own nation? Is it because pointing finger at someone else is way easier to look at yourself in the mirror like all morally bankrupted hypocrites?
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: Any links/facts to support your statements?
John Lennon
@ Temujin
does anybody know what does “made in China” means around the world? that means “Please ignor me” simply when you purchase it due to its cheap, then you yourself will accept the damage
Huang
@J L,
Its the spirit of “free enterprise”.
a_canadian_observer
@Huang: Definitely “Its the spirit of “free enterprise””. I was at a birthday party over the weekend with friends from multiple backgrounds (Portuguese, German, Canadian…) and guess what subject came up? chinese made stuff. Not to my surprise, everybody was concerned about it, especially when it comes to safety. Everybody tries to avoid chinese made stuff as best as they can. They also informed me about the new labelling schemes of those products, quite convoluted now-a-day, not straight forward “made in china” or “produce of china” anymore.
Karl Anton
If the chinese did not change their behaviors absolutely they will be surrounded by enemies. Thus, PLA are paranoid about their neigbhors. ANy moves by ASEAN for example will do harm about their behaviors although there are no moves to challenge them. The PLA must challenge, big brother like USA and not tiny nation or a new born child because this child cannot fight for. What is important for the Chinese people is to change their foreign policy, time will come this will result to a a bigger problem that will cause damages to them politically and economically. Any war that will start in Asia and China is part of it, the economic aspect of this country will collapse because their reserves currency will be used in rebuilding. So china must behave and adhere to the international law.
Andy
To all Chinese foul mouths. I cannot spell out the year for you, for events will have to unfold in sequence. China will have to be broken into many small pieces, not by the US of A as you might think but by the unseen forces . This is necessary for humanity to go forward. [Your] CCP only has 2 choices in its twisted mind: strike now [and get a death sentence], or bide the time to strike later [and still receive a death sentence]. We know your mentality – wanted to rule the world, don’t you?
Valbonne
ANDY!!
You have forgotten “BRITANNIA RULES THE WAVES” and America have bases all over the world since Korean War. Then, who is really wanted to rule the world??
European powers have colonize the world since 17th century. Please kindly do your homework.