Marine Corps University Prof. Jim Lacey and I arrive at the same destination with regard to the effects of economic interdependence on geopolitics, but we differ on the route. Last week, he took to National Review Online to criticize a recent RAND Corporation report for overstating the extent to which international trade and commerce discourage the resort to war. The RAND authors deem mutual economic dependence between China and the United States “an immensely powerful deterrent, in effect a form of mutually assured economic destruction.” Their choice of metaphor—nuclear deterrence—can be no accident. The implication: the two sides dare not fight each other lest they suffer irreparable harm that might collapse the global economic system in the bargain. What possible political stakes are worth such a price?
The RAND team stops short of declaring—alongside many Western commentators—that globalization has rendered geopolitics and warfare obsolete. But not by much. Lacey faults the report for an excess of optimism, and for slighting the place of U.S. military power as a backstop for the international order in Asia. So far, so good. Two quibbles, though.
Quibble #1: Norman Angell’s reputation is among the collateral damage from Lacey’s volley of counterarguments. Though it won’t hurt the feelings of this long-dead English intellectual, it draws too straight a line between his writings and present-day globalization proponents. Reviewing his century-old arguments about commerce and geopolitics could shed light on U.S.-China geopolitical competition in the here and now.
In brief, Angell’s landmark treatise The Great Illusion (1910) maintained that peoples could lay down arms and enjoy the blessings of perpetual peace, provided human nature changed—as he insisted it could. Yet a false consciousness held sway. The “great illusion” that gave the book its title was that nations must build up political and military power to flourish economically. Otherwise they would lose out in the Darwinian struggle of the fittest. The popular view was that Great Britain had thrived commercially “because she has been able to make her political and military force felt and to exercise her influence among all the nations of the world.” London bestrode global commerce “because her unconquered navy has dominated, and continues to dominate, all the avenues of commerce.” By this time, however, Imperial Germany was contesting British rule of the oceans. Berlin was assembling a colonial empire of its own and building a navy to match. How the naval arms race would turn out, no one knew.
Angell wanted to put an end to such competition. He pronounced the “currently accepted argument” about the link between prosperity and military force a dangerous fallacy. Warfare and conquest meant destroying the property and wealth of fellow commercial nations, and thus their capacity to carry on trade. Fighting against trading partners constituted self-defeating behavior to the nth degree.
Readers commonly conclude, with Lacey, that Norman Angell predicted an inevitable end to warfare, and that the outbreak of World War I scant years after The Great Illusion appeared discredited his vision of a peaceful, prosperous world. Not so. He’s a figure of fun here at the Naval War College when his name comes up, as it generally does each spring when we study the origins of World War I. But such verdicts do him an injustice. Angell admitted that the great illusion held his contemporaries spellbound. That force underwrote commerce was an “all but universal idea.” This misconception was “so profoundly mischievous as to misdirect an immense part of the energies of mankind, and to misdirect them to such degree that unless we liberate ourselves from this superstition civilization itself will be threatened.”
Angell despaired of breaking the spell. Not “a single authority of note” had defied the logic of power politics, even among those who “occupied prominent positions in the propaganda of peace.” Pacifists were “at one with the veriest fire-eaters on this point.” Nations, he concluded, could never transcend armed strife until they altered their most basic assumptions about international politics. Disarmament advocates could bring them around, but he despaired of doing so easily or quickly. In an important sense, Angell had it right. To escape what contemporary scholars call the “security dilemma”—arming to meet threats that arise when other peoples arm—human nature must change. And he insisted it could change.
The questions raised by the RAND report, then, are really philosophical ones. Is human nature immutable? If not, has it changed enough that economic logic trumps geopolitical interests in theatres like Taiwan and the South China Sea? I doubt it. Thucydides, the “father of history,” claimed that his chronicle of the Peloponnesian War was a timeless bequest, precisely because war was a fixture in human affairs. Fear, honor, and interest drove nations into policies that clashed with one another, sometimes violently. History could bear out Angell’s millennial vision one day, but the world of Greek antiquity remains a better guide for now. International politics can’t be reduced to cost/benefit analysis, removing non-rational factors like chance, uncertainty, and dark passions from the policy mix.
Quibble #2: Lacey compares the United States, today’s predominant sea power, to the Great Britain of Angell’s day. He observes that “the dominant power of the 19th century, Britain, was able to make room for America’s post-Civil War expansion without a major shooting war between the two.” He credits this relatively amicable adjustment to the great-power equilibrium to the “unrivalled military supremacy” Britain supposedly maintained during the fin de siècle age. The lesson is that Washington needs to follow the British example, preserving its own military supremacy to discourage Chinese adventurism.
But the historical analogy only goes so far. True, the United States and Britain fashioned a modus vivendi a century ago that forestalled armed conflict between the rising challenger and the reigning master of the seas. British maritime supremacy, however, was far from unrivalled at the turn of the century. The main reason London and Washington could work out an arrangement was because the British confronted a direct threat to their homeland, namely the battle fleet German shipwrights were bolting together across the North Sea from the British Isles. The Royal Navy could no longer face down a “peer competitor” in European waters while keeping a squadron in the Americas strong enough to vanquish the U.S. Navy. For its part, Washington had resuscitated the Monroe Doctrine and hoped to usher European navies—even friendly ones—out of the Western Hemisphere. The German threat far outweighed any hypothetical American threat, so London brought the fleet home while entrusting its interests to a regional great power. (British leaders cut a similar deal in the Far East, allying with Imperial Japan.)
The situation is radically different today. Unlike Britain, the United States faces no immediate threat to the homeland that compels it to bring forces home. Indeed, Washington has repeatedly proclaimed that it intends to remain Asia’s foremost maritime power, the rise of Chinese sea power notwithstanding. This is rather like London’s announcing a century ago that it meant to perpetuate British supremacy in the United States’ geographic backyard indefinitely, despite the emergence of a great-power U.S. Navy. Would the transition from British to American predominance have taken place without strife under such circumstances? Lacey’s analogy is worth pondering. But the differences between then and now are more instructive than the similarities.
James Holmes is an associate professor of strategy at the US Naval War College. The views voiced here are his alone.








DR.VENKAT. S. K.
I FEEL THAT AMERICA N NATO SHOULD HELP INDIA N ITS ALLIED NATIONS TO DETER CHINA.CHINA IS A THREAT TO ALL ASIAN COUNTRIES WHO ARE FREE NATIONS.CHINA IS LINKED TO PAKISTAN,NORTH KOREA N IRAN.4 ARE EVIL STATES.DMS,TMS N ,MC SHOULD BE PUT ON INDIAN SOIL TO COUNTER CHINA.INDIA ,AMERICA AND NATO NEEDS A STRATEGICAL ALLIANCE,NATO N AMERICA SHOULD REINFORCE ITS STRENGTH IN ASIA N IN PACIFIC OCEAN TO HAVE PEACE IN ASIA N TO COUNTER CHINA AND ITS EVIL PARTNERS.
klee
In fact, US has been the threat of the world stability. In the last 10 years, they had already started 3 wars. Now, they are working to go to war with Iran. Indian media always like to drum up an little thing about China. Because they want India revenges the defeat in 1962. They like to see their county to go to war with China. US likes to gang up with all the Asian countries to contain China’s rise and if possible goes to war with it. Indians always want to compare their country with China, but Chinese do are too much as India. Chinese’s goal is not to let US to domain the world and its hegemony. It is as simple as that.
John Chan
@Venkat SK,
There was no such nation called India in the history. India is a left over oddity of British Empire. It inherits the predatory western bad culture and is belligerent and bellicose which are the source of harm to the peace and prosperity of Asia. In its short existence, it had warred against all its neighbours and occupied several its small neighbours illegally.
India rather spends tens of billions of USD to purchase Rube Goldberg weapons from the rich western nations instead of feeding its 800 millions poor, its caste system abuses its citizens by birth, and its election is decided by graft.
American armed India with lethal nuclear technology and allows it to rattle nuclear sable to anyone in sight, meanwhile its tens of internal insurgencies make it a likely source for the terrorist to acquire nuclear material when those insurgencies succeed.
If NATO is going to arm India more, it proves NATO is villain to Asian.
sandeep
@ John Chan
India is and was a country even during the times of alexander and well even before the middle kingdom existed back to the times of Harrappa and Mohenjadaro.
China was the one which backstabbed soviets and beggared US thru Pakistan and occupied Tibet and mongolia. it has fought a war with india in 1962, killed its own people in 1989, had a war and a bloody nose in 1979 with vietnam and all its neighbours excepts pakistan.
John Chan
@sandeep,
Your comment is a classic piece of work from the school of creative revisionist history writing.
Cam
@john chan,
surely, You can’t stand the thruth. This is a bitter pill for you to swallow but it indeed cures the illness. You need more of these, john.
John Chan
@Cam,
The truth is as following:
Tibet and Mongolia are integral parts of China. Defeating an imperialist militarism adventurism India in 1962 was the right thing to do. Marching troops all the way to the capital of another imperialist militarism adventurism Vietnam in 1979 was to keep peace in SE Asia. Putting down riots instigated by the Westpac black information network resulting in casualty was unfortunate.
The above proves sandeep is a graduate of the school of creative revisionist history writing.
ozivan
@Sandeep. Before you accuse China, please make sure, if you claim to represent Indian’s views, that you are beyond reprove yourself.
India forcefully occupied Nagaland (100,000 Nagas claimed to have died under Indian rule since 19470, Assam, harshly put down rebellions by Sikkimese before, India occupied Kashmir ?, Goa ?, Arunachal Pradesh (once part of Tibet).
Don’t be trapped by participating in criticisms by western media of China’s internal affairs, as India is on the same side of history. Indians & Chinese bloggers should instead co-operate by not being played against each other by “outsiders”.
ozivan
@DR Venkat S.K. Here’s an interview on Australian TV between an Australian broadcaster Ali Moore and US Ambassador to Australia Jeffrey Bleich on November 7, 2011 that I believe will assist in updating and hopefully give you a more balanced perspective.
ALI MOORE: But isn’t there a far bigger issue or elephant in the room here that you’re not mentioning and that of course is China. I suppose America has been the dominant player militarily in this region for the last 50 years.
How do you see your role in the Asia-Pacific in the future up against a China that is increasingly dominant economically now and militarily will be in years to come?
JEFFREY BLEICH: Yes. No, we don’t look at China in those terms. We look at China as an important partner and a strategic partner in this region. We’re having ongoing dialogues with China. If you look at where the US and China are right now, a lot of the commentary is way out over its skis in terms of anticipating some kind of challenge where Australia would need to choose or where the US would feel threatened.
We really see China as a great opportunity. Right now we’re spending a fortune providing aid and assistance to developing countries. We’re looking for other stronger, more economically independent countries to help us out with that. And China’s on a very good trajectory right now and that’s why we’re working so closely together.
But our economies are mutually dependent. They need us as much as we need them. They’re very dependent on the success of the US and they’re betting on the success of the US and we’re doing likewise with China.
So it’s a healthy relationship. We’re not looking at it as, oh, they’re growing economically or they’re developing more military capability and that’s a problem. We see it as potentially an extremely helpful thing.
For full interview, please google Lateline: 7/11/2011 Ambassador Bleich Looks To Critical Period Ahead.
Similarly, the US is developing better ties with India with no less vigour.
a_canadian_observer
@ozivan: Thanks for the info. What can I say? The US ambassador represented his country well. Very diplomatic. That’s was in total contrast to the chinese ambassador in India.
ozivan
@a_canadian_observer. You are right. The Chinese Ambassador to India should be reprimanded by China’s Foreign office. Hope they have cautioned him. Diplomats are supposedly trained not to easily buckle even under tremendous pressure
Yang zi
Never say never. But the argument for impossible war between China and US is not entirely on commerce, it is on WMD, if soviet and US can avoid war, China and US definitely will.
The global elite may have more influence to policies than 100 years ago, the more influence it has, the less chance of war.
My comparison to cold war is not completely proper. Because China doesn’t have the parity Soviet had with US. A viable strategic force will fix it.
I don’t think US and China will have a war because the stakes are on high. China has no intention nor it is challenging US interests. Actually China has the same interest as US to maintain stability and world commerce. China does want to protect it’s own interest in terms Taiwan and SCS. It is causing some friction with US, I think it is because China took the wrong approach, it gave the impression that China want to challenge US interests.
There is an element that China’s success itself is a problem, because China is not a democracy. This is a structural obstacle can only be removed slowly, I am hoping in 10-15 years.
If you look at culture, Chinese has no fundamental differences from Americans. Chinese are practical with not much dogma. My vision/hope is China will develop into a US style power, but much less inclined to use force.
O
China’s “dominance” would be focused on breaking border barriers on trade, policy and culture.
Japan and Indian won’t be happy, because they want to be dominate too, China just need to find a way to share the dominance. Again, here dominace really mean influence.
Yang zi
I meant to say stakes are not high between US and China competition.
Lung Sha Shou
With respect, good thoughts.
I hope however, that if China or any other nation develops democracy that it is a real democracy which sadly, the US does not really have except in name. You can give people the vote but if you have a rotten system, with lobbyists, congressman beholden to special interests etc etc then the democracy is debauched, made ineffective. Jeffery Sachs book “The Price of Civilisation” is a great read on this subject.
I agree with the spirt of your comment that re culture “Chinese has no fundamental differences from Americans”, but it is obvious the Americans have been influenced to spend 100+ of their income whereas the Chinese tend to save. Chinese kids tend to study hard (see world rankings in maths and science and compare with American school achievement). You would be aware I am not against Americans per se but believe they have been badly governed and produced a commercial culture which as made them collectively weaker.
I am not looking for disagreement so will leave the Taiwan issue for now. probably best that I do some in depth research. I am currently reading The Generalissimo – Jay Talor – Harvard Uni Press, but doubtless that will tend to look at one side of the issue.
We certainly do live in interesting times.
nirvana
With respect, I disagree.
What Yang zi is advocating is an implicit Yalta agreement between the US and China, so that both can continue to over spend in defence, both can bully their neighbors, but each in its own backyard. In other words, Yang zi is not fascinated by the ideal written in the US constitution preamble (“We the people…”). He is impressed by how the US politicians, its military establishment and its predatory tycoons are betraying the will of their country’s founders. Yang zi’s illusion is that there could be a bipolar world, dominated by two coniving imperialist systems.
John Chan
Whatever yang zi’s idea is, but Philippines and Vietnam’s relentlessly effort of inserting wedges between USA and China to incite wars in order to benefit themselves is wrong. The only way for nations to grow and to be prosper is peace. Philippines and Vietnam are disturbing peace.
Yang zi
@nirvana is my soul mate, @cam too. I don’t believe in a democratic world order, because the world doesn’t have an authoritative court, prosecution and police force to maintain this democracy. US lead coalition is functioning both as a hegemon and police. The least of two evils IMO.
There is no free lunch, China cannot rise peacefully without pay. It either force it’s way up, or pay the due to the established powers. I advocate to pay the established powers, there are many ways to pay, I can drink a whole bucket of tea with @narvana to talk about it.
John Chan
Yes, China has been paying, in the amount of trillions, but as a birthplace of Al Capone, they do not know where to stop, their greed knows no bound. Their aim is total slavery of China; era of unequal treaties is their near term target.
The question is what China should do to pay the gangsters while itself still can grow more than it pays? The way China can achieve such balanced act is to arm itself to the point that even Al Capone would say thank you when he gets the money.
nirvana
@Yang zi,
The exact economic jargon is not “free lunch” but “free ride”. Both US and China are the biggest “free riders” in today’s crazy financial world. Failure to grasp this will end up in making simplistic assertions, à la John Chan. If John Chan can do simple math, he would see that it is the 0.1% of Chinese, those addicted to buying US T-bonds in the trillions, that are giving the US a helping hand in its current war efforts. Then he would understand that it is these 0.1% that are organizing mass slavery in China (and elsewhere), so that the “Westpac” can outsource “man exploiting man” to the self-proclaimed Maxist believers!
Democracy won’t work when the ruling elite can keep the rest of the people in the dark or systematically misinformed. That’s why Mao has devoted his life to perfecting a highly efficient state propaganda machine that still works in today’s Internet time.
mareo2
Trade is a sword that can cut in both ways, peace and war. If the economy of the world enter in a second Great Depresion, it is not unlikely the ascension of even more xenophobic and/or racists ulra-nationalists governments blaiming foreigners and/or minorities for their economic problems. In other words, the RAND report can be worthless if the global economy is flushed down the drain for a long period of time.
Frankie Fook-lun Leung
china’s foreign policy position nowadays is much predictable than the Maoist era. Besides, China’s participation in the world theater and her commercial and economic integration makes her more realistic in terms of the costs that might incur if she engages in a belligerent confrontaton with the USA. This is basically a rational cost-benefit analysis of any nation’s behavior, China included. Even in the last two decades, there were incidents which could trigger off armed encounters between the two nations, e.g. the Hainan Island surveillance plane incident when President George W Bush became President, China backed off. It was possible because Deng Xiaoping’s guiding doctrine of appeasement and maintain a low profile still prevailed. The most chauvinist and war-like arm of the Chinese government is the People’s Liberation Army. However, I tend to agree with the Rand observation that China would be engaging in an irritant cyber war instead of a full-front battle against the US. Even the recent South China Sea dispute illustrates China’s subdued approach.
yang zi
China’s dilemma is not unique, nor because China did anything wrong. Every rising new power experience this. rising power always have less or no allies.
China’s rise will be more difficult than US. China has established and coming powers around it, US has no such power bordering it.
Despite hiccups, I would give China a A+ for handling everything. if it is any other country, especially middle east or European country, a war is probably already broke out.
next stage will be harder, a strong, credible strategic force is badly needed to calm sharks down.
Reason
@Yang Zi
You’re so naive to the CCP’s intentions.
You’re transposing the intentions of the average Chinese person onto the CCP. This is a big mistake on your behalf.
The intentions of the elite CCP and the intentions of the average Chinese person are NOT in synergy.
Yang zi
@reason, CCP only think about it’s hold on power, it doesn’t have the bandwidth to be expansionist.
Actually, Europe is the one will replace US as the world leader. A France-Germany dominated Europe. Russia is also closer to Germany and France than England. A France-Germany-Russia axis is a dominating power center.
Chines economy is facing slow down, 20 years ago was Japanese threat, now is China threat, these are all temporary. The European has some problems now, but its rise is real and lasting, it will restore the glory to the old continent.
John Chan
The predatory nature of the Westpac will not stop until a total submission of China. Just look at Libya, Gaddafi gave up WMD to protect himself and gave billions of sovereign fund to Goldman Sachs for free, but Libya was bombed to a total submission. Expecting mercy from the Westpac is harder to expect the sun rising from the West.
Grant
That might have had something to do with fears of widespread massacres. America hasn’t anything like that in Syria even though the opposition is far more organized and peaceful.
John Chan
Carpet-bombing, Agent Orange, and My Lai Village are some of the examples of industrial scale massacres; no nation in the world has been able to match USA’s potency.
Grant
China didn’t make an effort to hold back in its wars. Also apparently you missed the combined sixty-some million civilians killed in Germany, China and the Soviet Union from the 1930s to the 1960s*.
*Not counting all those deliberately killed by soldiers in a war.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: Actually the 1979 revenge/rage killing of the old, women (pregnant included) and children in Vietnam by the glorious PLA was more qualified as industrial scale massacre. According to reports the PLA actually enjoyed and bragged about it. Talking about barbaric/animalistic behavior.
John Chan
@a_Canadian_observer,
I am always guessing whether you are a Vet, Indian or Jap, because you are so familiar with those barbaric/animalistic behaviour, you quote them all the time, it seems so natural to you.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
“@a_Canadian_observer,
I am always guessing whether you are a Vet, Indian or Jap, because you are so familiar with those barbaric/animalistic behaviour, you quote them all the time, it seems so natural to you.” Actually you and I have both agreed, that the PLA possess barbaric/animalistic behaviour. Which is their well known characteristic. Thanks.
Cam
@John chan,
Labor camps, organs harvesting, dead starving cultural revolution, genocide assistance are some of the examples of industrial scale massacres; no nation in the world has been able to match China’s potency.
John chan, you are my akai-ito (you know this, right? Since you claim you lived in Japan several years) so I will follow you anywhere in this site until you give up your lies, insults, poisonous mentality.
Cam
@john chan,
I am always guessing whether you are a Chink, Ching-Chong or wolf, because you are so familiar with those barbaric/animalistic behaviour, you quote them all the time, it seems so natural to you.
PapaJohn
@John chan,
Yes, we the Westpac needs to bring China down to her knee before she follows the footsteps of Imperial Japan. We can’t afford to see the killing machine in a full operation mode in Asia.
John Chan
@PapaJohn,
Actually, you are confused and got it all wrong, USA and its lackeys are walking the footsteps of Imperial Japan, bombing and killing non-stop everywhere since WWII. China is trying to show the world there is a better way to the new hope for humanity.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
“@PapaJohn,
Actually, you are confused and got it all wrong, USA and its lackeys are walking the footsteps of Imperial Japan, bombing and killing non-stop everywhere since WWII. China is trying to show the world there is a better way to the new hope for humanity.”
china is definitely trying to show the world there is a better way to the new hope for humanity. A great example is the recent event, when 18 people passed a wounded, dying 2-year-old child without bother to look or offer help – one vehicle actually ran over her the second time. Is this “new hope for humanity”?
Grant
The U.S and the U.K had similar language, heritage, religion and culture not to mention both being relatively democratic* by the end of the 19th century and even then things were fairly rocky between the two from 1800 to 1900. Sadly China and the U.S don’t have these similarities, nor the existence of a third nation to unite them the same way Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union did.
As for human nature, I don’t think we have much evidence that it really has changed much over the course of history (or prehistory). Although some technologies such as nuclear power might change behavior, humans sadly seem to generally show the same behaviors now that we did five hundred, one thousand or five thousand years ago.
*Over the past two centuries it’s been noted that democracies usually don’t go to war with each other.
Pawel
I believe that some specific circumstances can really foster a change in the human nature. Let’s take unified Europe after WWII as an example. As Robert Kagan described it, American military umbrella over Europe made it possible for the Europeans to focus on economic integration and welfare development, while relinquishing the use of force internationally (with exceptions, though, but only against non-EU countries). In other words, the bargain of maintaining security in the continent was shifted to the US. This has pushed Europe towards its unique “post-historism”, a highly comfortable position of peace, unity and common interest. Now this may change, once the US in crisis is less prone to invest in European defences. And on the contrary: East Asia, a region still bearing many features of Cold War architecture, hardly has a chance to experience any sort of democratic peace. Today’s Asia simply cannot afford the “Perpetual Peace”.
John Chan
Angell is wrong and Lacey is right, commerce cannot render geopolitics, racism and warfare obsolete. Even Brits and Germans are the same race, share the same Monarch bloodline, and they were the biggest trading partners with each other but they could not avoid war.
The chance of China avoiding war is slim, because China faces two additional hurdles on top of the same problems the German faced. The hurdles are:
1. Racism, China is the one maintaining Westpac’s life style that they cannot do it themselves, instead of appreciating China’s contribution they show unprecedented hostility towards China, such illogical behaviour can only be explained by owing to their racism. War will be broke out when their racist demands are not met.
2. China’s wealth is a strong incentive for the Westpac to take the risk and raid China to solve their financial crisis, because the reward is just too great to resist. It is a similar situation prior to Opium wars.
But USA would not be the prime mover to have war with China although it will be the main combatant of the war, Britain and Japan will be prime movers to push USA having war with China. Britain and Japan will be prime benefactors after the USA and China destroyed each other. British and Japanese will return to their high days before WWI if they succeed in guiding USA having war with China.
Margaret Thatcher successfully led Ronald Regan into ultra conservatism, until today USA still has not got out of Margaret Thatcher’s spell. Britain, Japan, India, SKorea, Philippines and Vietnam are cheerfully ushering the USA to crash China for its imperialist egoism in the name of democracy and human rights is very persuasive and hard for USA not to listen.
Although China looks formidable, but British had brought down China once, they believe they can do it again.
The only way China can avoid war is to make sure that Britain and Japan will not be the benefactors if USA and China crashes.
Grant
I love the word ‘Westpac’. It completely ignores the fact that nations like the U.K and Japan have openly quarreled with the U.S in the past. Also you apparently don’t know the first thing about the U.K. They have nothing to gain from a war between the U.S and China. The U.K economy would be seriously damaged, they might get pushed into fighting China and it would mean the U.S would focus far more on Asia than Europe.
John Chan
@Grant,
Occasional quarrels do not mean the couple does not love each other. At lease I gave the reasons why UK and Japan will be the invisible hands behind the hostility towards China.
Grant
No, not really. The U.K wouldn’t see an increase in power if China and the U.S went to war. If anything its power would decrease with the weakening of NATO and the inability to trade with China. Japan has even less to gain since the war might very well include Japan and it wouldn’t change Japan’s economic and political problems. The nations that would gain from a war between the U.S and China would probably be Russia, the gas and oil-rich Central Asian states and in general other developing states not caught in the war.
Russia would gain because it isn’t the enemy of either nation (at the moment) and could use the opportunity to increase its power in Eastern Europe, Central Asia and East Asia at the expense of the U.S and China.
Central Asia would probably benefit because the nations probably wouldn’t be forced to fight, could sell gas and oil at higher prices and could demand large amounts of monetary aid from both nations.
Other developing states would benefit because their products would be more competitive with Chinese products, they would be able to be more active globally and they push for more deals with the U.S and China in exchange for support at the U.N.
Of course the truth is that most states wouldn’t benefit enough to want a war to happen. The global economy would be in chaos, the winner would be able to act as they wanted in Asia and it could tear the U.N apart. Also, speaking as someone who reads Japanese, U.K, U.S and Arabic newspapers (in English) I haven’t seen that many Japanese or U.K leaders urging the U.S to go to war.
john Chan
Westpac’s actions surly tell a different story.
Grant
Except that they don’t. Westpac is not even an organization, it’s a buzz word you came up with*. The U.K has criticized the U.S in the past and I imagine the U.K is still a bit irritated about American ambiguity when it comes to the Falkland Islands. Japan doesn’t have any unusual cooperation with the U.K on anything and neither nation has led calls for war with China in the past twenty years. Find an actual statement by a U.K or Japanese prime minister in the past decade that called for the U.S to attack China**. Show me a report by a U.K think tank that argued the U.K would become stronger if the U.S went to war with China.
Added to that is the fact that you have the odd delusion that Japan and the U.K have control over U.S actions. We might consider them or we might not.
* No different from ‘islamofascism’. Unless Chinese state papers have actually created ‘Westpac’ instead of you, which would not surprise me at all.
** From a source outside of China. The nature of reporting there means that I can’t consider anything reported by an official newspaper trustworthy.
yang zi
Grant, there is a possibility that Brits want to maintain anglo saxon dominance through america. Brits can view China as a threat to that.
Psychologically Japan thinks they are the number one in Asia (actually true in technological advancement), it definitely don’t want to see a overwhelming China.
but these are not very strong motivations, the main thing is China’s political system. this is when CCP’s interests is in conflict with China’s interests. Chinese people need to wake up to this. I’ve been nationalistic sometimes just to show China can be better protected without CCP. I fully confident China will democratize in 10-15 years, when GDP per capita reaches $10k
Watcher
You are very correct that there is a great distrust towards the CCP abroad and that foreigners generally would rather deal with a democratic China. A democratic China would get immensly more soft power than now and would make other states much less weary of a strong China. I hope the transition can be made peacefully and orderly. The best would be if it were guided from above. I am glad to see that some Chinese understand that criticising CCP is not the same as being anti China or anti Chinese.
ozivan
@Watcher. I am glad to see that some Chinese understand that criticising CCP is not the same as being anti China or anti Chinese.
Good intention shown.
Unfortunately, they are not neatly compartmentalised ?
Anti-CCP bloggers too often cross the lines, or blurred the distinction and that incensed Chinese bloggers. However, it is a fact that such deviances are not only hard to control, but debaters from opposing sides are not free of guilt too.
Watcher
Man, you should get out of your time machine. This is 2011! You must be the biggest excample of the Humiliation Syndrome! The US is very racist – look at how well millions of Chinese are doing there. I think you are transposing your own mind.
John Chan
@Watcher,
Sure I will get out of my time machine, when USA stops interfering China’s internal affairs, lining up its lackeys in Asia to contain China with lethal weapons, and relentlessly smearing China. Watcher, I hope you are born yesterday, you know action speaks louder.
Remember the Cuban crisis? USA wanted to blow the world up because somebody put some firecrackers in its backyard, yet USA is massing carrier battle groups, stealth fighters, other lethal weapons in front of China’s door. Telling me to get out of my time machine, I guess you are classic snakeoil salesman.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: You can belittle other nations anyway you want. That doesn’t stop them from doing the noble and sensible thing: forming coalitions to contain the big, bad devil (china). As I’ve said before, time will tell, buddy.
Leonard R.
This is closer to Professor Holmes & Lacy’s views than to the peaceniks at the Rand Corporation. Here is an article worth reading.
The Five Most Likely Ways a Nuclear War Will Accidentally Start
(NB: Trade won’t stop any of them).
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/10/5-most-likely-ways-the-us-and-china-could-spark-accidental-nuclear-war/247616/
You’ll notice #1 involves the Philippines. Some American analysts apparently to the Leonard R. doctrine. You’ll also notice that Taiwan doesn’t even make the list. That also agrees w/ the analysts at the Leonard R. think tank.
Grant
I have to wonder about the analysis. The U.S has just as much experience with China on North Korea as we do with China on Taiwan and personally I suspect both the U.S and China wouldn’t use nuclear weapons unless the continued existence of their state was threatened by a foreign army. Additionally I can’t see the U.S using nuclear weapons to help India. We’ve gotten closer to India over the past twenty years but we aren’t about to go to nuclear war for them.
Leonard R.
I agree w/the article on Philippines & the excluding of Taiwan. I agree w/you on India.
Part of the Leonard R. Doctrine is that both Koreas added together are not worth one small dish of kim chee.
Another part of the doctrine is that no nation in the Far East right now is as strategically important
to the US as the Philippines. If it is secure that solves a lot of problems for the US & ASEAN.
If it’s not, there will conflict. The US needs to make damned sure it is safe.
.
yang zi
if US strategists drink kool-aid from Leonard R’s think tank, China and US will be best buddies. China has no interest in invading Philippines, it doesn’t believe in invading. if it did, it would still holding India northeast.
Leonard is totally off on this one, no matter how long has he been staring at the map.
On the 5 possible causes for US-China nuclear war, only the Korea war has a 5% potential, others are below 0.1%
Korea has 5% because N. Korea have nuclear weapons, it could use it level Seoul. even then, China will tell US that China has no intention to help N. Korea.
Leonard R.
@Grant:
The problem with most China analysts is they assume that the CCP has firm command and control over the PLA.
The analysts at the Leonard R. Think Tank do not make that mistake.
That being the case, we acknowledge the possibility that a rogue
PLA commander, a Li Yuan for example, could fire on a US ship &
thus trigger a nuclear conflict. Or…a false flag operation
could fire on the US and pin the blame on China.
Where is an incident like that most likely to occur?
Right now, the analysts at the Leonard R. Think Tank believe
it is most likely to occur in the triangle between Hainan,
the Philippines & Danang.
Grant
It’s true that the CCP probably has to rely on the restraint of its officers the same way the U.S and Russia do, but if Chinese standards are anything like U.S and Soviet/Russian standards they probably couldn’t start a nuclear war so easily. The difference here being nuclear war as opposed to conventional. One is regrettable and could occur from the actions of lower officers but does not threaten extinction, whereas the other is unlikely and would require more than a few officers but if it did happen would at least wipe out most life along East Asia and the western side of North America.
John Chan
@Leonard R,
Leonard R Think Tank is nothing but a Paranoid Teapot, there are way more nut generals in USA than anybody in the world.
Ex CIA chief Michael Hayden said on CNN GPS “USA has very very long reach and very very long memory.” He was vengeance and menace.
General BURWELL B. BELL III said “if China took part in the Peninsular War, back to the Chinese economy 100 years ago.”
Such elite of the USA thinks of nothing but bombing and killing.
Huang
Military conflicts between nations can be started by a great number of reasons ranging from mis-calculations or mis-understandings to intentionally orchestrated by factions from within any nation involved. Once the first shot is fired, it would be next to impossible for any nation to stop the madness that is WAR. War is not only costly,it is the reflection of the failures on all sides to find a solution without resorting to major military conflicts. Historically, wars were fought and concluded in a pattern where peace/war are merely intervals on the endless imaginary line called “The rise and falls Empires and civilazations”.
China’s recent rapid developnmental progress and successes have invited a mixture of views from welcomed by some STABLE-MINDED nations to fears and jealousies from INCAPACITATED-MINDED nations. Naturally,the chinese can understand that these are just another factor of human nature and thus should be aware of and contingencies or steps prepared to deal with all unforeseen developnments in the new environment.
Furthermore, since these negative factors will only become liabilities to China and the rest of mankinds, any mis-calculated moves from any of these nations should be reciprocated with equal or overwelming responses.
“Beating the drums of wars” or ” dancings of the war dance” should not be viewed as any immediate threats. Rather,they should be an important window into the minds of those war advocates often are easily be found on the edges or fringes of any society. Hence,”knowing the directions where the ground rats likely to be surfaced once the digging begin saves time and energy”.
Finally,China’s peaceful rise can be a blessing to the good and it will surely be a nightmare to the evil. Its all about good vs evils.
Hail to the good people of the World and the hell to the evil beings.
a_canadian_observer
@Huang: You’ve stated nothing new or unexpected. Nobody from the good camp would believe yours/china’s deception.
Huang
@a-canadian-observer,
I am sorry– but I have to tell you that my views however differ from yours should enjoy some followings from many camps-including the good camp you called yours.
In general, people are the same everywhere on Earth and people understand and they know what is deception. Of course,there will always be some who just refuse to believe solely by their stubbornly held views without knowing better before passing an error in judgement.
Yang zi
Canadian-observer works for a big company in Canada, yet he is brain washed by his home country Vietnam’s propaganda. Vietnam send its wemen to combat, but if they are killed, they claim you kill their wemen. Also, can you use a better and shorter name? It annoys me to have to type your long fake Candian name, Canadians dont care about your country, nor does americans. They will gladly drop you an agent orange bomb if they feel like it. So wake up go eat your Pho. (btw, I love Pho noodle soup, care to share the recipe?)
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: Is that the best you can throw at me? Anyway, keep on insulting me personally. BTW, I’ve stated in another blog, that it would be an honor for me to be either Indian or Vietnamese..
a_canadian_observer
@yangzi: BTW, I could be wrong but I sensed your joyfull tone about the PLA’s action in 1979 against VN’s old, children and women (pregnant included). Exactly what I expected of someone from glorious china.
Cam
@yang zi,
The brutality of Chinese PLA soldiers is well-known. I can smell it from your comments here too, “wolf wearing sheep’s cloth”, this is someone called you the other day, right? I know whole lot of more Chinese than you thought. You reminds me of those mainland Chinese students I worked with when they flooded the NGO (right after the Tiananmen crackdown), where I worked to process refugee resettlement. You may be one of them. Anyway, you need to think harder with a heart when talking about war casualties.
Cam
@yang zi,
I can’t believe you love Pho. I thought you hate anything Vietnamese and you only eat Chinese foods Sichuan-style. Anyway, you and I share only thing common in Pho. But NO, I don’t think any Vietnamese bloggers here can’t give a good recipe of Pho for a Chinese wolf wearing sheep’s cloth here. Sorry, NO.
yang zi
@Cam you are so mean, I just want to make a good Pho. I tried to make it once but totally blew it.
a_canadian_observer
@Huang: I have to agree with you, people can tell where deception comes from.
John Chan
@a_Canadian_observer,
Deception is not your cup of tea, relentlessly fabricating facts; twisting presentation and smearing baseless is your forte.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
“@a_Canadian_observer,
Deception is not your cup of tea, relentlessly fabricating facts; twisting presentation and smearing baseless is your forte.”
No, thanks. You are the champion of “relentlessly fabricating facts, twisting presentation and smearing baseless”. I’m no match for you
lungshashou
Don’t you just love how the CCP-PRC types just love comments like “The truth is as following” and then go on to make some ridiculous statement. I suppose that’s what their state media do and given that are also blocked from accessing information it directs how opinions are formed. The Chinese people cannot be trusted with knowledge about some things I guess. The idiotic statements that “XXX is an integral part of China” are a case in point.
Here is mine- you ready?
HERE IS THE TRUTH!!
1.Since the Chinese ceded the treaty ports Westpac should have them back as an integral part of Westpac.
2.The Japanese should get Manchuria, after all they fought for it, the Kuo Min Tang did all the defending of it while the Communists ran away, so the independent sovereign nation of Taiwan should have it.
There, I’ve said it – as the Dean of Revisionist History above likes to do – state garbage and then it becomes true (CCP – PRC magic!!)
Your friend of the pontificating pronouncements is the arch exponent of fabricating facts, twisting presentations and baseless smears. I am not sure what his level of education is – whatever it is it doesn’t seem to involve any courage for examining reality, more along the lines of I pick side A so everything I read and say is in line with that and anything to the contrary i will ignore – when people disagree I will slander them (in Australia we call it playing the man not the ball) What I do notice is their total lack of moral compass, and their disregard for the welfare of Chinese citizens themselves – just like their idols the illegitimate PRC leadership. They are more about supporting them than considering the welfare of their people. At least in countries there is a tradition of debate and disagreement and examining the weaknesses and faults of even your own side – not so with their regime or with its mouthpieces – they are quite happy no doubt for dissidents and FG to have their livers stolen, fleeing Tibetan Monks and Nuns to be shot, Monasteries destroyed, Churches burnt and oppressed, the Burmese government who use the Karen people for “mine clearance” [Reference London’s Head of Nursing who visited Burma] numerous abuses of the law, and the incredibly wicked suppression of “dissidents” lie Weiwei who simply made a few low level criticism of their administration. All this is OK with these folk it seems.
The person who criticises other of Revisionist History Writing must surely be the Dean of the University Of Creative Revisionist History Writing and seems to regard China as the premier civilisation of the world which is superior in culture to all others and which must have whatever territory it regards as its own. Then again the so called Communists have been doing this for 60 years now, inventing history and truth as it suits them. The garbage claim for Tibet is one such absolute joke, it’s just a pity the Tibetans were too slow to apply to the UN for recognition when they had the chance. That murderer Mao, who regarded “religion as poison” and then shelled a defenceless city had no real stewardship over that region until they annexed it.
I have read from several reports that the Communists sustained only 3% of the causalities in the fight against Japan but have spun the story as victors often do to indicate they carried the fight. It is said that Dean Chan and other s have
I find their disregard for others astounding. Somewhere on this page one of them asserts India wasn’t a nation at such and such a time which is technically true. The trouble is we are supposed to accept that despite the warring states period China was somehow a sovereign nation for millennia, irrespective of it being splintered and rules by various warlords and emperors.
One of the fascinating things is their willingness to overlook enormous crimes or complete moral turpitude, even where it grievously hurts the Chinese people – we are expected to believe they will and do treat the rest of the world in a way which is so much better. The Canadian ex-MPs report (Kilgour) on organ harvesting is astounding but I know these sort of things are not important to those who place no value on life, particularly those who disagree with them or their government has told them are “enemies”
I wonder the influence of the CCP control leads them to think they can similarly pronounce something and it magically becomes true.
They love this “teach them a lesson” garbage as well, I note the comment about Vietnam and the spin to try an turn it into a victory, I am aware they doubtless could have taken Hanoi, but also aware that they got their assess kicked very badly and that militarily it was a humiliating defeat, not that they ever really cared about the lives of their soldiers. The “teach them a lesson” sentiment is huge for them and it is clear to me from other forums that this is exactly what the Chinese and their incredibly “loyal” “toe the party line” supporters want to see happen.
On of the usual suspects does the “I state the truth” stunt with Vietnam and the Philippines saying they endanger peace – of course to them anyone endangers peace if the just don’t give China what it wants no matter how unreasonable – or if they arm themselves in response to China doing just that. Have you seen the map of their EEZ claim in the South China Sea. It really says it all.
Having a Mental health /law background I note the black and white thinking is pretty entrenched. There doesn’t seem to be any shade of grey, China is all good & other countries are either all bad in their intent (and you can sense the desire to punish & humiliate).
If this forum gets too tabloid I think I will just have some boilerplate cut and pastes along the lines of “THE TRUTH IS”.
Sadly the world is asleep to the danger that china presents – I can see them suddenly invading the free and independent sovereign nation of Taiwan, the US not stopping them as it should and then pushing and shoving a little more.
It will be interesting to see if Clinton’s recent speech is actually put in practice – i.e. international law and freedom of navigation upheld.
From my end of Think Global Act Local I never by anything Chinese if I can avoid it – I know their society is so corrupt that infant formula or pet food from their is suspect, as is their school building
Cam
@Lung Sha shou,
It is great to know you have mental health background. Don’t want to talk about myself here but I found myself sharing lots of common things with you. Thanks.
nirvana
(Why I should apply for a job in the China Energy Fund Committee)
Blogger Huang is not advocating for war. War is a failure (the PLA certainly agrees). Blogger Huang is advocating for a strong China. So strong that when it proclaims something “undisputable” all “state-minded” claimants would sign a friendship treaty on China’s terms, on the spot. So strong that when it says “peaceful unification, now”, 23 millions people in Taiwan would peacefully seek asylum abroad. No, there is no need for war when you are “overwhelmingly” strong. There is no need for teaching anybody a lesson when you have shown that you can be awfully brutal. There is no need to draw dotted lines on maps for future use. There is no need to impose unilateral fishing bans to keep the sea quiet. Isn’t it wonderful a world after China’s successful rise?
The problem is that there is already a guy who is overwhelmingly strong. He is of course evil. So evil that we don’t know how he will react if there is a “tiny-scale” war. So evil that he doesn’t say whether the SCS is his core interest. So evil that we don’t know whether he has the guts to honor his military treaties. See? It is impossible for China to rise, peacefully! It is time for China to accept failure!
Cyrus14
Economics did not deter Germany attacking France it should be no different now.
chris
I think in the coming decades, you will see an eye for an eye type of conflics between china and the U.S. But not all our war. I think the buisness is just too good and intergrated between the U.S. and China, for the Red army to act unilaterally in any over hostile or overly adventuristic campaign. They are very coMpetitive however in all the aereospace, aeronautics, textiles and all Buisness fields. I think its actually China who does not even want the U.S. economy to collaps either. China has plenty invested in the U.S. Although China is deversifing its investments more now, buying lots of euro, and debt of other european countries and such. Also, I don’t see china as an overly adventuring nation. they simply want to have the largest economy and have the most in every monetary field. However thier military is very robust, and is steadily developing, yet i think this is only to PROJECT power as a deterent, this I think is reasonable, and i would advise for any nation to do if it wants to protect is assets in whatever region it is involved in, thats just common sense.
Asian countries on the other hand I feel need to protect thier own interests in the coming decades, or they could become victums of China’s growth, this would simply be a consequence of not modernizing; and therefore will not be able to move freely in many areas, both physically, and economically. Asian nations need more clear cut visions, and they need to invest and advertise those visons to the rest of the world. They also need to seriously re-evaluate and increaase their trade ties with each other as well as south america, and europe, and ofcourse the U.S. Again, just a bit of common sense. There is nothing a giant dislikes more, than coming to a battle field, and seeing everyone holding ropes and spikes with which to trap you in, until you have mutual understanding, and cooperation. Just ask Guliiver. Peace on the seven seas.