Asks Colin Clark: Why has Chinese foreign policy made a sudden turnabout from ‘peaceful development’ to ‘belligerence’? I would add: is such a swerve really ‘unexpected,’ as the title of his AOL Defense column indicates? He points out that several events have disturbed the equilibrium along China’s maritime frontiers in recent weeks. Vietnam and India concluded an agreement to explore for oil in South China Sea waters claimed by Hanoi and Beijing. Japan and the Philippines held consultations, declaring a joint interest in sea-lane security in the South China Sea. The Obama administration announced that it would upgrade aging F-16 A/B fighter jets for Taiwan, although Washington stopped short of transferring new model F-16s to the increasingly outmatched Taiwan Air Force. It’s been an eventful time, even by the standards set in the past couple of years.
While conceding that any outside account of the shift in China’s rhetoric is largely a matter of conjecture, Clark postulates that non-consensus views may have found voice in Chinese media outlets, that an internal realignment within the ruling Chinese Communist Party may have empowered a more bellicose faction, and that changes in the external environment may have sounded alarm bells in Beijing. The entry of James Soong into Taiwan’s presidential election race, for instance, could siphon votes away from incumbent President Ma Ying-jeou, allowing Democratic Progressive Party candidate Tsai Ing-wen to prevail in a close election. As befits the DPP representative, Tsai voices scepticism toward closer economic ties to the mainland because they might grant Beijing a dominant say in cross-strait affairs.
Such developments discomfit officialdom in China. There’s little to quarrel with in Clark’s reading of the tea leaves, but something more basic may be at work as well. Can China help itself when smaller neighbours defy its will? For me, Beijing’s behaviour over the past couple of years conjures up the classic Aesop fable ‘The Scorpion and the Frog.’ Like most such tales, it’s short yet rich in substance:
‘A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, ‘How do I know you won’t sting me?’ The scorpion says, ‘Because if I do, I will die too’.
‘The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp, ‘Why?’
‘Replies the scorpion: ‘It’s my nature...’
Now, Aesop clearly verges on ‘determinism’ here. Cultural determinism is the idea that peoples are captive to culture, history, and religion—the intangibles that comprise a society’s nature—not to mention ‘vast, impersonal forces’ that sweep them along to their fate. This overstates reality. It denies individuals and peoples any say in their lives. We aren’t automatons. But even so, ingrained habits of mind stemming from culture shape how we respond to contemporary events. As China’s economic and military rise progresses, giving Beijing the ability to ‘sting’ others, the kind of behaviour on display in recent months may persist or even intensify.
Which I suppose casts Asian states and outside powers such as the United States in the role of the frog—the party who simply can’t bring himself to believe the scorpion would do anything against its own interest. It’s commonplace for Western pundits, like the frog, to declare confidently that China wouldn’t do this or that—challenge free navigation through the South China Sea, act militarily against Taiwan, or what have you—because it would harm Chinese interests as pundits construe them. Well, maybe. But that borders on determinism of a different sort. Call it the determinism of cost-benefit calculations. To guard against it, diplomats and commanders entrusted with managing relations with Beijing might keep Aesop’s fable in the backs of their minds.
James Holmes is an associate professor at the US Naval War College. The views voiced here are his alone.
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Frank
The author does not understand the Chinese history.
The only reason that China survived longer than any other nations on this earth is because Chinese love peace more than anybody else.
Chinese are not confrontational. If you do not push Chinese the corner, they will not fight.
However, when Chinese decide to fight, they will fight to the death. Our deaths, or yours.
That is our nature. That nature made us survived the longest in human history.
shen liang
@Frank
I know this is very difficult for some of my friends to believe, but WE ACTUALLY *DO NOT* HAVE MORE ANCESTORS THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE. Really. Hard to contemplate, but true.
“China” is only a vague idea. In the past it was always a feudal state and/or an empire, not a nation. Zhou–Qin–Qing, there are varying forms of that idea; it is clearly not in any way the same. The lip-service paid to the idea of Zhongguo in the Qing by a foreign military elite should tell you all you need to know about how superficial the idea was. It is an idea primarily used to control, not inspire.
Some talk about the US in terms of the Roman Empire today. This too is simply an idea. It is admirable of the Americans that they are not unnecessarily impressed by that idea.
Frank
You are right. China is not a nation. China is the longest surviving civilization,
Our language was discovered on bones carbon dated 8,000 years ago. Our genes are the same as the people lived along the yellow river 8,000 years ago. Most importantly, we still have the land that our ancestors 8,000 years ago were buried.
That cannot be said about any other civilizations. The original Indians were replaced with the ones coming from today’s middle east. The Greeks and Romans that bankrupted their nations today were not the same people that conquered the people from England to India.
Oro Invictus
@Frank
Alright, let’s go point by point on this one:
1) Thanks to genetic intermingling, you and basically any random person on Earth probably share almost the exact same amount of genes in common to the ancient Chinese or any other group from history. Other than extremely minor phenotypical traits and small population endemic genetic repetitions, there isn’t really any major difference between any two people genetically (and there really never was, given we all originally came out of Africa [Ethiopia, to be precise]); that’s why, in fact, many geneticists dislike the term “race” as it implies a far greater degree of genetic variation than what actually is the case.
2) Inhabiting a parcel of land does not a civilization make, it is defined by the population’s society and culture; considering (as previously mentioned) humans first appeared in Ethiopia, by your definition they would actually be the oldest civilization on Earth by a WIDE margin. Mind you, it doesn’t really matter either way, given that the Chinese, for certain periods of time, did not continuously inhabit the same areas of land and that there is even some evidence that certain areas of China may have first been inhabited by proto-Europeans.
3) Actually, if you ever studied ancient Chinese, you’d realize modern Chinese differs wildly from the original linguistic forms; several forms of Arabic have been more consistent for much longer periods of time than any of the languages used in China. Plus, it would also be prudent to note that ancient Tibetan contributed heavily to the development of modern Chinese dialects (which is why the oldest East Asian languages tend to be referred to as “proto-Sino-Tibetan”).
4) Culturally, the modern climate of China varies as much from its predecessors as any other culture does from their antecedents; this is really a good thing, unless you are a big fan of oracle bones, human sacrifice, and what can only be described as “Archaic Luddism”.
Anyways, that fact of the matter is that Shen Liang is absolutely correct in defining both countries and civilization as non-static suppositions, generalizations of similar socio-cultural entities from a variable frame of reference. However, this does not mean you or your culture is any less rich just because it is not older; if anything, it celebrates the solidarity and community of humanity as a whole in tandem with our abilities of adaptive co-existence. Claiming to have an older civilization than anyone else is not only foolish and quasi-elitist, but self-defeating; it would mean, if true, your culture would have seen absolutely no social advancement in thousands of years and that it had remained completely separate from influences from other cultures, making said culture all the poorer for it.
yang zi
Oro Invectus, You seem to be a learnt person but you are going too far. there is no need to attack the pride of a persons’ sense of history. besides, history is usually not what you read.
As of now, my belief is a people called Qiang, who lived in areas near Tibet, are the ancestors of Chinese. Qiang people are also ancestors of Tibetans, and people in Burma and Northern India.
Qiang area is in current XinJiang province, which close to where I come from. This area has seen proto-Europeans. they were either killed off (don’t know by who) or moved. they were depicted in Chinese history books as one of Waring factions.
To me, the best culture is an inclusive culture. the more you learn, the better you are.
Oro Invictus
@Yang Zi
I’m not sure if you are trying to chide me or what; I’m assuming you aren’t disputing my point, since the trivium you gave was only tangentially related to what I was discussing. In any case, I’m not attacking someone’s pride in their heritage, I’m disputing what amounts to “cultural supremacy”. Saying one’s culture is somehow “better” because it’s older is not only bigoted, but foolish given the statement that any culture is significantly older than another is inherently flawed.
yang zi
Sorry Oro Invictus, yeah I can be incoherent. My reading of Franks statements is not that he thinks Chinese civilization is superior, he is just have a reaction to what this article implies, that Chinese culture is inferior. you may not read it, but Frank felt it and I don’t blame him.
But truth be told, culture advantages are subjective and relative. who says who is superior? in what? survival of fittest, or dramatic rise and fall?
Peter Jackson
Oro Invictus…Humanity may have started in Ethopia but not the first civilisation.
To meet the definition of Human civilisation, it must be capable of building infrastructures like villages, town and cities,bridges transportation hubs etc.
A cave like existence as hunters and berries cllection do not meet this definition.
Please get your fact right.
shen liang
@Frank
Nonsense. There is no evidence that the idea of China as a civilization existed 8000 years ago. There were people in certain regions of modern day “China’s” territory doing their thing, just as in the rest of the world. It is the Chinese who unfortunately obsess more than others over turning those people into “our people” (We can’t accept strangeness, particularly not on “our land”) And we look like fools more often than not when doing it.
The earliest written characters that may be unambiguously linked to the Chinese writing system date back to around 2000BC, or about 4000 years ago. And those characters did not comprise “a language”, much less “your language”. You cannot read them directly; you could not do so confidently, in fact, without a decade of scholarship specializing in the period, making the “language” to which you refer less easily accessible to modern chinese than homeric greek is to native English speakers. And even after a decade of scholarship, there would still be debate after debate over how accurate your interpretation actually was. By pretending this “Civilization” we have is somehow more continuous than the civilization of the Greeks, we overlook the fact that it is just as inpenetrable to us today as the Ancient Greeks are to Westerners.
As a Chinese, you should know that the Yellow River is not the only place in ancient China where civilization emerged. The Ancient Shuba (modern day Sichuan) people were very different, in civilization and art, which complicates your poorly referenced “single nucleus” theory and leaves me wondering whether you are aware Chinese archaeology has already left that theory behind. There were also early centers of civilization in Zhejiang, Shandong, and other locations. In fact, even the Chu kingdom, which persisted until the Qin, is difficult to square with the single nucleus theory. Whatever you think “China” means as “a civilization”, it is likely wrong. It is certainly not one thing.
Likewise, the only interesting thing genetic studies have revealed is that northern chinese are genetically closer to Russians and Mongolians than Southern Chinese, who are genetically closer to Vietnamese and Southeast Asians. Genetics won’t support your argument.
All civilizations which inspire and inform nations today survive. This point is emphasized by the fact that, whereas many Western nations’ constitutions speak to values inherited and cultivated from Roman and Greek traditions, while their government buildings reveal similar influences, you would be hard pressed to find in the contemporary Chinese state, laws and government architecture any evidence of ancient inspiration in policy or values. In other words, nothing that you say is true.
nirvana
@shen liang,
I want to tip my hat to you for this rebuttal.
For your challenge of finding “in the contemporary Chinese state, laws and government architecture any evidence of ancient inspiration in policy or values”, I tried to dig into the various versions of the Constitution of China.
The 1954 version said nothing about ancient culture heritage (but mentioned “the indestructible friendship with the great Soviets”).
The current version does begin with:
“China is a country with one of the longest histories in the world. The people of all ethnic groups in China have jointly created a culture of grandeur and have a glorious revolutionary tradition.”
…and at the same time, curiously also warns against “big-ethnic chauvinism, mainly Han chauvinism”!
And of course, also proudly announces that “The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production was completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished…”.
As Confucius said 2500 years ago: “Sincerity and truth are the basis of every virtue”
ozivan
@Frank, Oro Invictus, Shen Liang & Yang Zi.
@Frank said this : You are right. China is not a nation. China is the longest surviving civilization.
IMO, when talking about civilisations, we have to see them in big macro pictures of what civilisations are left surviving today, as compared to those as far back as thousands of years ago. To understand better, we have to ” hop, skip or jump ” through long time scales or zones to current times.
Greek civilisation was pre-eminent in ancient Greece, Hellenic Troy, Alexander The Great’s Macedonia, Sparta and Greek’s Philosophers like Pluto and Aristotle. But today in year 2011, Greek civilisation is reduced to one tiny nation – Greece.
Roman civilisation stretched far and wide through the whole of the Mediterranean countries, but is today reduced to only Italy – a nation, if there still any traces of their Roman descent such as the coliseum and the ancient ruins.
Both Greek and Roman civilisations have vanished and been overtaken by Christian civilisation (or more narrowly speaking European civilisation) engulfing the whole of Europe and even Russia.
So is the Babylonian, Egyptian and Persian civilisations which had totally vanished. They have been overtaken by the Islamic civilisation (or more narrowly speaking Arabic civilisation).
I would say that the LONGEST SURVIVING civilisations today are the Chinese and Indian civilisations which are still relatively intact.
Many other countries that are more recently formed are either merely States (USA), Nation (Australia), by Culture (Japan) or by Ethnicity (Malay Indonesia) or a mix of all.
Quoting one’s civilisation is more for historic pride, but in my view will not necesaary denote superiority of culture, except in some rare instances when compared to, say like, the nation of Papua New Guinea which are still primitive by today’s standards.
shen liang
@ozivan
I haven’t thoroughly studied Greek history, but I do know you are too simple! Civilizations don’t limit themselves to countries. They are more like languages–they don’t recognize borders unless forced to. The whole point of acknowledging civilization is to see how pervasive its influence is. So, although I’m not well-versed in Western history, I do know that Greek inspiration (coming from people of the Greek Byzantine Empire, an off-shoot of the Roman Empire that may have rivaled the Tang) is largely responsible for the Italian Renaissance. I do know that when George Washington initially refused to take the position of President, the immediate model for his actions was Cincinattus (sp?), a Roman general who gave up the position of dictator. There are countless examples if immediate, pervasive influence among which the architecture for government buildings throughout the West is merely the most obvious. For millenia, the Greeks and Romans were serious models every educated person was to hold in his mind. The Romans even supplied a language of scholarship and cross-border communication which was the equivalent to Mandarin up until the 20th century.
It’s ridiculous to think because a nation exists that is nominally related to the Romans or Greeks, this is the extent of their civilization today. It is equally ridiculous to see Christianity as something which simply replaced Greek and Roman civilization. It didn’t. It was grafted onto them.
Civilization is about values and richness. Richness creates wonder, values provide connections. I think Western nations are closer in values to their ancient predecessors than Chinese people, outside of the Confucius element. A play by Aristophanes is just as viscerally funny today as it was 2500 years ago. A joke by Zhuangzi–not so much.
a_canadian_observer
@shen liang: Wow! I admire your knowledge and thoughts. Since china still has people like you, I believe she still has hopes.
Huang
Although the “frog and scorpion” fable was not a good example to describe the complex relations or inter-relations between China and many others, the scorpion’s nature as implied in the story was more closely related to othersthan to China.
China has never been an aggressor to any nations since the beginning of modern age.
On the contrary, China was at the receiving end of aggressions since the dawn of so-called modern era.
Today(2011),China has become the second largest economies after the US. China’s national defense is moderaely been upgraded to near be somewhat at parity to most modern armies. China’s infrastructures have also been modernized to resemble that of many major industrialized antions. Technological advances have also been improved to a moderately advanced stage. The living standards of the chinese people have reached their revolutionary levels and scale never seen before,since,and ever in human history.
Apparently and consequently,China’s “peaceful rise or developnments” have stirred up many inner human en-tanglements(tight and shallow capacity or tolerance to accept someone else’s successes)among the usual suspect nations and peoples. Since 1978,China has experienced and successful dealt with multiple attempts at undermining and disrupting China developnments or the familiar term “Socialism with Chinese Charateristics” through political subversions(1989 Tiananmen was the most rigorious). After many failed attempts since that faithful day in 1989,the new focus was launched recently to promote and mislead the World into viewing China as a threat-”the China threats theory”. Of course,there are a number of China’s neighbors jumped for this hyped betting everything they ever have on the wagon that is heading toward a cliff thinking they were gaetting a fair deal.
Does China pose any threats to its neighbors near by or friends from afar ? The answer is both yes and no. Yes, to countries still holding the old belief of bullying China. No,to countries neighboring China and are actively co-operating with China in economic and trades.
finally, the so-misled “China Threats” is fading away as more and more countries are engaging with China to build and promote a peaceful and stable global environment for all to enjoy-Not just a few nations as in the past.
Huang
@a-canadian-observer,
China always has hopes because China have people like me and Shenlang(although I doubt shenlong is even Chinese because some part of shenlang’s statement look more Indian than Chinese).
Even so, you are right this time about China- a nation that is both ancient yet modern,complex yet simple,poor yet rich in culture,backward yet advanced in ethics,not a Democracy yet one hell of a political structure or system, not mlitarily powerful yet have the courage and wisdom to stand its ground……
ozivan
@Shen Liang. I agree with you that civilisation is transnational when you said Civilizations don’t limit themselves to countries. They evolved through the centuries. They creep into every nationalities and frontiers till somewhere the similarities get blurred, and a new and different culture or civilisation arise.
The unique characteristics of civilisation eg languages, architecture, values that you cited are true and relevant. Indeed, there are many more features that stands out and distinguishes each civilisation.
For example, the written form is more indicative than the spoken language of a civilisation such as the modern day A-Z alphabets and 0-9 numerics are common throughout Europe or Christian civilisation, although the languages are spoken differently in each country. The Chinese calligraphic written form is common from China to Korea & Japan, albeit with some modifications, although the languages are spoken differently. And Arabic written form would commonly appear in muslim countries.
Asian architecture have a lot of commonalities in China, Korea and older Japanese buildings such as they significantly display structures made from bamboos and wooden materials. Even if they are currently made of concrete and mortar, they are designed to look wooden or of bamboo features. Southwards of the mediterranean sea, the architecture changes drastically to islamic or moorish style structures. In Europe, one would say they are set in stone, mortar and pebbles.
Even the physical racial features and manners are different. A caucasian would look so much different from an Asian, Indian, African or Arab.
Then into food, diet and eating habits. In Europe diary products, meats, bread, forks and spoons seem to be the norm. While in Asia, rice eating, bowls and chopsticks, vegetarian and herbs are foremost. In South Asia, curry and spices, banana products distinguishes their civilisation.
Ceremonial costumes and head dress also distinguishes one’s civilisation, eg saris for India; silk fabrics for China, Japan & Korea connotes Asian civilisation; Arabic garbs or burkas; even polynesians wears distinctively different. Oops, even wearing nothing but only loincloth or barks with painted bodies distinguishes a different civilisation.
Lastly, religion plays a strong influence over civilisation distinctively.
It is easy to recognise one type of civilisation to another. Comparing civilisations is better done internally, as it can be sensitive when done untactfully.
However, it is also true to say that many of those distinctive features are gradually disappearing, and if they do exist they are largely and increasingly confined to heritage buildings, temples, places of worship, royal palaces, ancient structures , traditional customs and practices.
Anyway, thank you for sharing.
nirvana
I think a discussion on the resiliency of ancient Chinese civilisation is incomplete without mentioning The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, “the greatest contribution by Mao Zedong to the science of Revolution”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm5fCJNMQWQ
(The Farthest Advance towards Communism in History!)
a_canadian_observer
@ozivan: Good writing! Only a small correction to “Even the physical racial features and manners are different. A caucasian would look so much different from an Asian, Indian, African or Arab.” Indian and Arab are actually caucasian.
You can search the web for info.
a_canadian_observer
@Huang:
“@a-canadian-observer,
China always has hopes because China have people like me and Shenlang(although I doubt shenlong is even Chinese because some part of shenlang’s statement look more Indian than Chinese).
Even so, you are right this time about China- a nation that is both ancient yet modern,complex yet simple,poor yet rich in culture,backward yet advanced in ethics,not a Democracy yet one hell of a political structure or system, not mlitarily powerful yet have the courage and wisdom to stand its ground……”
No offense, but I didn’t mean to include you with Shen Liang. You’re a very smart indivudual and passionate about china, but you’re far from beking like Shen Liang. And if in deed he/she is Indian, then good for India.
ozivan
@a_canadian_observer. Thank you for pointing out.
Long
Chinese loves peace more than anyone else? And that is why China survives longer than any other nations? Really? Do you know your own history at all?
If you spend some time to read history of China, you’ll see that your ancestors started wars and and annexed smaller countries. To name a few: Vietnam and Korea were invaded and ruled by Chinese for thousand of years.
Back to more recent, if you read the modern history, China invaded and conquered Tibet which is about 20% in size of China. Even more recent are the wars that China had with India, Soviet Union, Vietnam…China is currently having dispute with Japan, India, Vietnam, phillipines, Korea,….
If Chinese people loves peace more than any other nations, then please explain to me why China is the only nation in this world has more disputes and wars with its neighbors than anyone else. I am sure you will say that is because China’s neighbors did something wrong and it’s time for China to correct those wrong doings.
I think the better statement you should have made is that China survives for so long because Chinese people is the most brutal, cold hearted bully than any other great nations
yang zi
@Long, as I understand, every country make up things or glorifies its history. China is no exception, Vietnam is the same or even worse, judging by things said on this site.
Also, every country conquered or be conquered in the history. Japan occupied a big portion of China in WWII, I am not proud of it. but it is what it is and there is no need to loose sleep over it.
Currently in SCS, Vietnam is trying to violate the 2002 SCS COC (Code of Conduct) by drilling in disputed areas. Even worse, it is trying to get away from it by saying those areas are not disputed, the same tactics is used by Philippine. the fact is, China’s 9 dotted that is published in the last century, has always clearly marked the area that is claimed by China. whether you agree with it or not, it is a dispute.
I am not saying China is right in its dispute, I am just saying don’t violate the 2002 SCS COC, let’s sit down and figure out what to do. It seems VCP and CCP just signed an agreement to do exactly what I am saying.
Despite what I say (I said China should act), China is been responsible and cautious. It has not deployed its drilling platforms, it has constantly calling for joint development.
One might say but China insisted on the sovereignty, so what? you can insist on yours and just agree to disagree and develop jointly. why is this reasonable proposal fall on deaf ears?
Nam Nguyen
Any sane person looking at that 9-dot line (which, mind you, claims half the SE Asia countries’ front porch as belonging exclusively to Chinese) would ask himself “what in the world are the Chinese thinking?”
No, I’m sorry. I dont think the Filipino, Vietnamese, Malaysian or anyone for that matter would agree with your “joint development” proposal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dotted_line
Cyrus14
Oh, and building new structures within our EEZ does not construe a violation?
long
You are really missing my point…I am not debating about the cow tounge shape lines that China is claiming…not about that at all…I am debating about the claim that Chinese people loves peace more than anyone else…
You are just so obsessed about the dispute and missing my point…I should not waste my time with you until you clear your head and focus on my point
Frank
I said that Chinese love peace more than everybody on this earth.
I also said if pushed to the corner, Chinese will fight to the death to protect their family, their ancestor’s land and most importantly, their honor (or face).
Tibetans invaded China 1400 years ago. That is why they have to be punished. Soviets invaded us. We have to fight back.
If you leave us alone, we will leave you alone. If you mess with us, we will have to mess with you.
Ngo Quyen
Well what do you know. Vietnamese believe in the same thing. We like peace. We have never tried to invade China or any country unless attacked. But if you messed with us, we will mess with you, and kick your ass. We have done so in the past. So pipe down. Let’s live in peace or else ..
shen liang
@Frank
….. So, what are you suggesting we do to the “Soviets”?
I’m becoming increasingly worried about you. Are you insulted when someone doesn’t put enough sesame seeds on your jianbing?
Do you mess with her then?
Final
“”A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, ‘How do I know you won’t sting me?’ The scorpion says, ‘Because if I do, I will die too’.
‘The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp, ‘Why?’
‘Replies the scorpion: ‘It’s my nature…’ ”
I like this, it’s Chinese nature…
yang zi
@Final, glad you get a satisfaction. when the argument get heated, you see the real nastiness of people, i am afraid it doesn’t reflect well on the people who spew out such things, that includes this author and you.
Watcher
Frank you are insane! You are now arguing that China should punish every coutry that has done you wrong in history. The list is long – then all you want is war and conquest! If all countries follow that principle it will be a war with all against all. Settle down. You can’t go to war for all the bad things that happened in history. If there are many like you in China the world is heading for disaster! Luckily I know many Chinese, but never heard arguments like these before. I hope you are just a lone extremist.
Roland
The sign of end world in 2012 is imminent
long
What did the Vietnamese and the Koreans do to the Chinese that the Chinese had to invade and conquer those countries for thousand of years? What did Vietnam do to China that force China to invade Vietnam in 1979?
ozivan
@Long.You asked : please explain to me why China is the only nation in this world has more disputes and wars with its neighbors than anyone else.
Long…In the last 200 years, the British had the most disputes, wars, annexation, colonisation by force, etc then followed by Nazi Germany against most of Europe and Russia, even wartime Japan attacking US and sweeping invasions of most of Asia, then finally followed by the US.
Just count how many times that the US have gone to wars and invasions after WW2 compared to China. Wars are wars, invasions are invasions. It does not matter whether the countries are your neighbours or far-off.
Long
Very good points about England, Germany, the US…and yes, China is doing the same thing as those great nations…no debate here. All I am arguing is that do not call yourself the people of peace loving…no, it’s not true….Chinese people does not love peace than any one else…
ozivan
@Long. Truth is that leaders of many nations, great and small, regularly speak and call for peace. Yet, sometimes, some leaders like George Bush would hold no bars and accuse others eg. Iran, North Korea as the “axis of evil” and ocassionally against some countries or national leaders unfriendly to US, UK or France as non-peaceloving.
It’s is known as speaking from two sides of the mouth.
Expect the same from some internet bloggers. I am trying to get use to it.
Frank
Wow !!! Great discussion. Thanks a lot for the comments. You just answered author’s question. “Is China a Scorpion?” The answer is:
China is just like everybody else. Is USA or India a Scorpion? If not, then China is not.
I agree with you:
China is no different than any other nations. Chinese are not saints either. They are just like everybody else.
JUSTSAYNO
If you look at China’s foreign policy over the last few decades you will find that most of them makes a lot more sense and is a lot more consistent than the US foreign policy in areas like the mideast and south america. Chinese government if anything is obsessive about stability. The fact that a military conflict with Taiwan would destroy the stability in China means that it’s highly unlikely that its leaders will do something irrational. Those associated with the defense industry in the US on the other hand would love to paint China as an irrational player because scaring people is the only way to keep the defense budget bloated in the time of bad economy.
krypter
The Chinese do not believe in rule of law, theirs or anyone else’s. They only believe in power, and when they have the strength to challenge the international system they will indeed sting it to death.
Frank: get to back to whatever CPC 50-cent-party hole you crawled out of, we can recognize propaganda when we see it.
yang zi
please don’t insult your opponent. we are just arguing in words, no need to get testy.
Frank does have a point, not that Chinese culture is superior, but it has its own characteristics.
As a matter of act, I see a lot of problems in Chinese culture. I see tons of good stuff in western culture. Western culture dominated world for 500 years, it is not a small achievement.
KarL Williams
Well, the USA is the scorpion all along.
It’s conniving nature has enabled it to manipulate and stung many nations.
Just count the number of nations it had attacked over the last 50 years and what do you see?
The deadliest conniving scorpion of all!
As usual, the lies factory are churning out disinformation to try their best to discredit a certain country.
This is the result of an empire past it’s zenith, resorting to Blesphemy, to defends it’s Pride.
Eric Spencer
Surely you are referring to the USA?
As our esteemed Aussie ex minister of Foreign Affair will say,
“In Washington, there are two Rules of Law.One that applies to Washington and the other that applies to the rest of the world”
How true, to quote an example, the USA insist on coming up with an annual report on Human Right abuses and yet, it actually tortures prisoners of war and find it a very much acceptable practice which it would use to extract information.
It is a case of the kettle and pot calling each other black, I suppose.
Frank
Shen Liang:
Where are you on this one?
yang zi
I knew the professor has a veneer of niceties but is a very aggressive personality underneath.
To have an accurate read of situation, one should try to understand the strategic play, some are real, some are for the show. you have to tell one from the other.
India is not much a factor in SCS, US and Japan are big factors. even then, Japan’s role and will is limited for its own interests. US has big ships, so does its voice. yeah freedom of navigation, good excuse.
Philippine and Vietnam are challenging the status quo by drilling in the contested areas, this is a violation of SCS code of conduct and has to be stopped. China will take action. China will not die because of it, it will thrive.
Even though this site is called the-diplomat, we don’t know anything going on behind the doors. gives and takes, warnings and threats, or understandings. China has other cards can play. it can send its drilling platforms out and start drilling too. the more the better.
As for Chinese culture, one should ask a basic question, why there are so many Chinese? China’s population is always a huge part of world population, the percentage is coming down in recent years because of its population control policy. To answer the question, Chinese are best survivors. Other people kill off each other and see their population dwindle, Chinese adapt and survive. a bellicose culture can’t achieve this.
Come back to the scorpion analogy, I see signs of this in US. it keeps spending thinking this time will be different. but it is not. it is the nature of a western style democracy to spend, otherwise, how can a politician get elected?
Long
No, the reason China’s population is the largest in the world is that while other people kill each other off, Chinese people kills non-Chinese people of smaller and weaker nations brutally and cold heartedly. This brutallity forced many smaller countries to accept the ruling of the Chinese people and hence they became “Chinese” themselves. This is why China has the largest population.
yang zi
so by your logic, the people in these smaller countries became brutal once they were conquered?
Vietnam is violating SCS code of conduct, yet it yells at China as an aggressor. China is just trying to check Vietnam’s illegal activities.
venkat
These Chinese are known for their double standards. Look at the case of Chinese military working in POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir). The stooges are taking up several projects in this disputed area, and when India takes up oil drilling in the Yellow sea bordering Vietnam we see these lousy commies jumping up and down.
They are the most unethical people we can see on this planet. Cannot be trusted.
yang zi
@venkat, please watch your language.
Chinese workers are fixing roads in POK, also is POK contested by India?
long
These Chinese bloggers really don’t know how to debate…I was not debating about the Chinese’s nonsense claim of the East sea. I was debating about why Chinese population is the greatest. I should not waste my time with these tofu heads
long
Speaking of Chinese workers…they came to Vietnam to work on projects that Vietnam awarded to Chinese companies…these companies would bring thousands of these workers with them..the workers went to local Vietnamese shops to eat…then when asked to pay, they would call their fellow workers to come to beat up the owners, burned down their shops and did not pay a penny…that shows the how “peaceful” the Chinese people is…
Another example was the Olympic torch ceremony in Seoul. When the Korean students protested the relay to support the Tibetians, the Chinese students beat the local Korean students right in Seoul
ozivan
@Long. You wrote : the workers went to local Vietnamese shops to eat…then when asked to pay, they would call their fellow workers to come to beat up the owners, burned down their shops and did not pay a penny…that shows the how “peaceful” the Chinese people is…
If it did happened, then it is bad by all counts.
Care to let me have the link to read more and verify ? BTW, didn’t the Vietnamese police took any action ? No country’s police would tolerate such behaviour.
Singaporean boy
Long,are you the product of an American GI and a Vietnamese mother?
Was your mother a bar girl serving the GI Joe?
It must be hard to be a pariah in Vietnam and thinking of your mum in bed with these GI, you being the result and not knowing who your father is.
There must be many like you, left behind and trying your best to show that you are a true blue Vietnamese.
Good on you,
a_canadian_observer
Dear moderator: Why would you allow this kind of language in this blog?
“Singaporean boyOctober 21, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Long,are you the product of an American GI and a Vietnamese mother?
Was your mother a bar girl serving the GI Joe?
It must be hard to be a pariah in Vietnam and thinking of your mum in bed with these GI, you being the result and not knowing who your father is.
There must be many like you, left behind and trying your best to show that you are a true blue Vietnamese.
Good on you,”
Huang
@singaporean boy,
Long is a Vietnamese . Long is a Vietnamese who must have been very un-happy with the current Vietnamese Communists because Long still believe in resurrecting the former regime of Viet Nam controling half of South Viet Nam until April 30,1975.
Long is what the Hanoi government realized lately that the group was demonstrating against China while at the same time attempting to criticize the Communist regime.
The Communists in Hanoi are not easily fooled by these people-in fact what ever they plan to do or if they succeed whould set Viet Nam backward at least a decades or two in terms of economic and modernizations.
Viet Nam’s current model is not perfect, but it has proven to be working well-living standards are up, society is more modern,people are making money-what more can you ask for from a non-democratic country.
Peter Jackson
Your comments reflects total ignorant and spats of racism towards others.
Throughout History, a culturally rich but weak China was a tempting target for others like the Mongols and the Tibetan and even the Western nations and Japan as recently as the nineteen century.
But ven though the Mongols and Manchus successfully conquered China, they were subsequently absorbed by their victim as the numbers were stacked against them.
The other reason, the conquerors became Chinese eventually was, that the rich culture of their victim was so tempting that they adopted and succumbed to it and was absorbed as a result.
Displaying your ignorant in public only reflects on your self.
Long
Wow, I did not how the richness of Chinese culture can have that big impact! What a hypocrite you are!
First of all, you tried to deceive us by using an English name. If you are so proud of your Chinese culture, why did not you use your real Chinese name?
Now, as far as the Chinese culture, I have to admit that many people admires that culture. However, that does not mean those non-Chinese people want to become Chinese themselves. For instance, when Ming dynasty conquered Vietnam for hundreds of years, the Chinese wanted to turn the Vietnamese into Chinese…so, the Chinese burned all Vietnamese literatures, forced the Vietnamese to practice Chinese culture…
Now, the Chinese is doing the same thing in Tibet…you are killing Tibetian culture, language so that eventually the Tibetian people and culture will be eradicated….this is exactly how Chinese expands…
Eric Spencer
Again, your ignorance betrayed you.
To you, any blogger that is not a Chin hater is therefor a Chinese, yes?
May I remind you, not all westerners are Chin haters.
I am an Aussie and I loved all things Chinese.
Do that make me a Chinese, as what an ignoramus like you will assumed?
Think what you will.
Your writing has betrayed you,not only as an ignorant brat but also a racist at their worst color!
a_canadian_observer
@Eric Spencer: Since you “love all things chinese”. I guess that includes:
- children’s milk formula with melanine,
- kids’ toys containing lead,
- stealing IPs,
- faking legitimate products,
- fake rice, fake eggs, recyled cooking oil from waste,
- shooting inmates for parts,
- genocide in Tibet,
the list can go on…
Long
To A_canadian_observer:
please do not waste your time with that uneducated boy. He is unworthy of our time. This forum is only reserved for human. So, that creature should be ignored.
Eric Spencer
To Canadian and all China bashers on this blog…
Yes, I cannot get enough of Made in China gadgets and stuffs as they are so affordable.
As they say, the price is right!
Now, I am throwing a challenge to you guys out there.
Be a man of your words. As they say, action talks louder then words!
My challenge is for all you haters of Chin stuffs to go around your house and start to bin all these Made in China products that are in your house.
Yes, be a man if you can do this, but I will put my money that you won’t.
Of course, nobody knows if you can or cannot do this but just the thought that you guys won’t be able to do it and you yourself knows it mean what a small man you are at the end of the day!
This challenge awaits you….so start and see if you are man enough to display your hatred by binning all these stufffffff.
Get going….
Long
BTW,
by using an English name, you show us once again, how the Chinese are: people of making faked goods, faked documents, not trustworthy at all.
Long
Again,
where is your dignity? Where is your Chinese pride? Why do you have to use Eric Spencer and Peter Jackson as your fake name to deceive us? Faked iPhones, faked LV handbags, faked historical documents on East sea are not enough? Now you have to use faked names?
Long
Ozivan,
Not sure if you can read Vietnamese, so I post this link to an English article:
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-invasion-of-Vietnam:-the-economy,-the-seas-and-the-lives-of-people-22466.html
This article does not go into details as the Vietnamese media. But if you can read Vietnamese, let me know and I’ll post the links to the more details.
Long
Ozivan,
to answer your question why the Vietnamese local police did not do anything: you know that the Vietnamese leaders are very afraid of China right? Their fears are too great that they did not dare to touch those Chinese workers eventhough we all agree that such behaviors are not acceptable anywhere in this world. However, the Vietnamese government is afraid that arresting those bad boys from China will anger the Chinese and cause more tension. It is sad but that’s the reality.
Long
And here’s the video of the Chinese workers attacking, beating the owner of a local Vietnamese shop. Six Chinese workers came to the shop to buy cigarettes. When asked to pay, they called their follow workers to come to beat up female owner and her children. When the husband came home, they beat him up too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UshBxOUfCbM
Long
And this is the link that reported the behavior of the Chinese students in Seoul during the 08 Olympic torch relay:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/world/asia/27cnd-torch.html
Long
When the Chinese fishermen entered Vietnamese water, Vietnam navy asked them to leave. However, when the Vietnamese fishermen ran to Paracel island to avoid big storms, the Chinese forces from Paracel islands started shooting at the fishermen or beat them up brutally.
Let’s do some other comparisions: when the Chinese fishermen entered the water adjacent to Senkakus island of Japan last year, Japan maritime police vessels asked the Chinese to leave. The captain of the Chinese fishing boat ordered his crew to ramp the Japanese vessels. The Japanese maritime police then take the captin into custody and released him 2 weeks afterward. Imagine what happened if the is between a Vietnamese fishing boat and the Chinese navy.
Now, let’s look at the behaviors of other neighboring countries. When Vietnamese fishermen entered the disputed waters of the Phillipines or Malaysia, they got arrested, maybe fined, sometimes jailed and then released. Same thing when, say Phillipinos fishermen entered Vietnamese water, they got fined and released. No shooting or violence occured.
But it’s a different story when China is in the picture. Shooting, beating up, violence…
john
So is it right for China to claim most or about 80% of the South China Sea based on the 9-dash line? Do you really think Chinese owns most of it? That’s the crux of the problem.
venkat
They support their claim by saying that one of their ancestors scented a rock on the Spartly Islands and hence it is part of China.
If other countries just look away, they will in no time come up with another 9-dash line engulfing the whole of Pacific and Indian ocean. Fools and foolish claims.
yang zi
China made its claim in 1947 and recognized by major world powers, including US. Japanese give up its control in the treaty of San Francisco and transferred to China.
Long
Yeah,
and in a few decades, they claim the whole world because they find “made in China” goods in every corner of the world…just nonsense…but being Chinese, they will make that claim…
Trang
Ah, so Singaporean boy is right!
You are indeed a GI by product in our beloved country.
Not Vietnamese and not American….
Too bad you are stuck in half way land and don’t pretend to be Vietnamese too.
Long
and in a few decades, the Chinese will claim the world world because “We found Made-in-China goods in every corner of the world”
EAM
I for one do not believe in the inherent “nature” of any country or people. China will behave as any other country does in pursuit of its goals, no worse, no better.
While its claims in the SCS seem far fetched (Singapore’s Tommy Koh as far as I am aware is the only expert to have expressed a considered view on the matter and belives that the claims to the sea bed cannot be supported), it also the case that the other claims are also too wide. China is not the only party at fault.
The best solution appears to be for each country to agree to a limit of 200 nautical miles from populated areas in accordance with the law of the sea and agree among themslves on how the seabed outside is used.
The article also goes against some other developments, namely China and Vietnam signing a new agreement
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/11/china-vietnam-idUSL3E7LB4D420111011
and China and India also talking, and most importantly signed up to a stategic economic dialogue
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2523742.ece
China is no scorpion any more than any other country is. This kind of rhetoric is unhelpful and widely off the mark.
yang zi
@EAM, the articles by unrelated person to the subject, at best is just for reference.
The first step to the dispute, is to agree there is a dispute. Chinese 9 dotted has been there for almost 70 years for everyone to see, it is a valid claim. but other party can dispute that, that is why it is called disputes. so following steps has to be taken
1. include all claims.
2. respect SCS COC( Code of Conduct), no unilateral drilling in disputed area before a settlement can be found. China is very restraint, it can unleash a drilling great leap forward anytime it wants, but China is abiding by SCS COC.
3. Everyone keeps its claim. China can claim 9 dotted line, others can claim theirs, agree to disagree.
4. One area at a time, decides who will be the sponsor of the exploration. the sponsor is acting as if it owns the area, but will consult other claimants and give shares to others
5. leave difficult areas for later. but no unilateral exploration before the settlement.
This is my personal proposal to the problem. I believe it is fair and balanced. China is making its best effort to respect SCS COC, and also I strongly recommend China to enforce SCS COC, which is why I encourage China to act.
EAM
Yangzi, in the end, there can be no clear answer until the ICJ adjudicates. Tommy Koh was one of the people drafting the Law Of the Sea treaty and I believe has expressed the view that under international law, none of the claims to the seabed are sustainable, not just China’s. Equally, if the rival claimants agree a resolution and emody in a bidning treaty, that becomes international law.
yang zi
@EAM,
Tommy Koh or ICJ, they have no power to decide sovereignty issues. I find the argument of this guy makes sense (your fellow aussie) http://www.eurasiareview.com/03102011-managing-the-south-china-sea-sovereignty-isnt-the-issue-analysis/
EAM
Yes – the ICJ has no automatic jurisdcition. It depends on parties submitting to jurisdiction. But that was not my point. The ICJ is there for disputes to be resolved if the parties voluntarily use it. It should be used if there is no other solution. The article you point to also makes sense suggesting a mutual common sense agreement. But that does not seem to be happening. So go the ICJ.
Huy Duong
“Which I suppose casts Asian states and outside powers such as the United States in the role of the frog—the party who simply can’t bring himself to believe the scorpion would do anything against its own interest.”
There is no absolute standard for “one’s interest”. Sometimes what does not benefit a person/entity now, might bring much greater benefit him/her/it in the future.
China is (a) a country/empire that has been in existence for a long time, (b) ruled by an authoritarian system, so it is likely to play a game that is longer than the liberal democracies’ games.
China’s policies and actions might seem to the Western eyes to be against its own interest, but it is possible that China has calculated that the gains will be worthwhile in the future.
Leonard R.
Yes. Reasonable people would agree to apply Aesop to China’s intentions.
The PRC is both malevolent and self-destructive, like the scorpion.
That is its nature. This flare-up with the Philippines and Vietnam was
not in China’s best interest. Yet it happened. China stung the frog
before it crossed the water and now it has to pay.
A recommendation to Professor Holmes, the phrase ‘SCS’ is not a legally-
defined term of art or governance. It’s not necessary to call it the ‘South China Sea’. And some maps are already referring to the area as something else.
I recommend the Diplomat call it the Pacific Ocean near SE Asia, or
the east-central Pacific. These are nice, neutral terms that don’t encourage bad behavior.
Who could possibly object to that?
yang zi
Leonard, there is a Chinese saying to describe what you are doing, it is called Taking Off Pants in Order to Fart
it means totally necessary.
Leonard R.
Yang Zi does not know I can see the future clearly.
I predict that tomorrow, Hu Jintao will wear a black suit and a red tie.
When Jinping replaces him, he will also wear a very dark suit and a red tie.
Now everybody knows what will happen. The future is dark.
I have people on the ground in Beijing. It is illegal for a member of the
Standing Comittee to wear a brown suit or a grey suit.
A tweed sport-coat would mean a firing squad.
yang zi
Very good prediction. I also predict they all wear boxers
Huang
Leonard O,
Sounds like of one you guys’s Indian tricks. Unfortunately, I am affraid I have to inform you that your old tricks no longer work.
Frank
He is a fat white man from South part of the USA. Southerners.
shen liang
The moment I realized the CCP was willing to harm all of China for its benefit was when Zhu Chenghu announced the PLA would initiate a nuclear war in response for US ships defending itself from mainland missles. He actually stated China is prepared to accept the loss of all cities “East of Xian” (or about 1 billion people). Needless to say, this was purposefully beyond MAD: once a country is perfectly willing to sacrifice nearly all of its own people for an island, MAD no longer applies. No rule does, in fact.
Though the government said he was “punished” for expressing “a personal opinion”, he later aggressively represented China (and supported North Korea, whose nuclear diplomacy is equally subtle) at a key regional security summit.
ozivan
@shen liang. Maverick characters like Zhu Chenghu are common. They come by once in a while.
General McArthur, theater commander of the US & UN forces during the Korean war was punished as commander by President Truman because of his frequently diverging public statements, mostly antagonistic, including a threat to atom bomb China.
Japanese Chief of Airforce staff General Toshio Tamogani was punished in 2008 for writing an essay that the US tricked Japan into world war 2.
Besides, we have to double-check whether this Chinese General made the threat on his own volition or was it in reply to a leading question ?
Having been involved in politics myself for many years, it is common for an audience to put up a leading question after a talk or seminar. For example, someone could have asked this General what would the PLA do if the US launch a nuclear missile against China from a warship in the Pacific. This General Zhu Chenghu (if I remember he was the one) would inevitably reply that China would then attack Los Angeles with a nuclear missile.
The circumstances of a statement should be taken into consideration.
a_canadian_observer
@ozivan: “The circumstances of a statement should be taken into consideration.”
Agreed! In which circumstand did Ge. MacArthur say what he said? And in which circumstance did Gen. Zhu Chenghu say “If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China’s territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons. We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course, the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.” ? Remember, he was indeed a speaker of the PLA at the Asia Security Summit (Shranri-La, 2010). 2 generals, different roles.
nirvana
General Zhu Chenghu was indeed a speaker of the PLA at the Asia Security Summit (Shranri-La, 2010).
In 2005, This is what he publicly said: “If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China’s territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons. We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course, the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”
The context was clear.
Huang
@shenliang-nirvana-a-canadian-observer-Observer-reason-and the rest of you,
You guys should stop pretending to be Non-Indians when each time you vent your bitterness,you were giving away bits and pieces of what you guys are(bad Indians).
I happen to have a great deal of respects and admirations for the people in the land today called India. I also understand and I will continue to believe that MOST of the people in India today have positive views toward China and others-including your most hated Pakistan.
The sentiments and emotional responses coming from you guys only make it hard for India to be respected by others who might have a keen imterests in learning more about India-known for its diversed and rich ancient cultures. Of course, India is a nation with many unique ethnic and liguistic groups and some of these were and are still struggling to gain more independance from the government.
Likewise, you guys kept venting your hates and jealousies toward China without re-assessing yourself. I can be sure that you guys would find more difficiencies than your ability to deal with-yet you are all concentrating your energies toward the worst kind of human nature burying deep down inside -hatreds and jealousies.
Finally, China and India will eventually reach a consensus of resolving the border and other issues base on understandings and trusts-not influenced by any dark human natures you guys have. Like those good and enlightened scholars and wisemen in ancient time,the good people of India will not allow elements such as yours to ruin India by adapting Western attitudes to India’s Asian issues.
Finally, the reason why ancient scholars chose to make long and difficult journeys to China to pass down their wisdoms might have to do with characters like you guys-a bunch of emptied souls will ensurely guarantee the lost of their valuable legacy.
P.S. Don’t be affraid to speak as a India person if your views and opinions are true and valid to the best of your knowledge and conscience.
a_canadian_observer
@Huang: I cannot speak for the others, but I’m not Indian. It would be an honor for me if I were Indian or Vietnamese, though.
Your writing has re-asserted my point that you’re no Shen Liang. According to you, anyone who doesn’t like china is either jealous and/or hateful of china, and you cannot accept the fact that we tell the truth about china. As I’ve said in another article’s comment, I will respect china when the day comes that she acts like a respectable great nation. Right now, she’s just big in size but small in attitude/behavior, i.e., I have no respect for her.
You still have a lot to learn about debate, and, respect for others other than china and chinese.
Huang
a-canadian-observer,
Indeed, as I mentioned before- I have a lot to learn . AS a matter of fact, I am learning something from just reading your response. I have learned a thing or two from today’s headline in the local paper. Also, I learned another new Engilish vocabulary today.
P.S. I don’t enjoy reading negative and degrading posts from many who have an opinion on China related issues. I would rather read contradicting accounts against China based on truths and from a mind that is kind’a StaBle. Thats all I ever asked-Not more and certainly NOt lEsS. …..
john
There’s an old chinese saying yada, yada, yada.What is mine, is mine…what is yours, is mine…
Bharateeya
I think this article is quite unfair in hinting that the actions of the Chinese Communist Party are indicative of the Chinese Civilization…One must realise that the actions of CPC are imposed upon the Chinese populace and are not reflective of the Chinese people. Any Chinese guy, irrespective of whether he supports the CPC or not, shall be offended by such off-hand comparison to a scorpion!
That aside, the CPC has indeed taken some terrible steps in the past! Some, like the Great Leap Forward, have caused more deaths and destruction than the occupation of China by Japan & other European powers combined! So, was China previously the “scorpion that stung itself”?
EAM
Yes – Bharateeya. I agree. The rhetoric has a whiff of nineteenth century sterotypes of the “sinister oriental” a la Dr Fu Manchu. I do not think that this kind of thing can be taken seriously at all. Quite sad really.
angelus512
You are correct in theory but not i reality. Yes in theory the actions of the CCP do not reflect the thoughts and actions of the Chinese people.
In theory.
In reality this is a dead theory that doesn’t hold water. The CCP remains in power because the population is happy enough with their policies and actions which means in large part the CCP does indeed represent what the populace wants.
Finally one could say Nazi germany did not represent the german population. But through years (10 years) of indoctrination by the Nazi government to get their population to think as they do they achieved admirably and with disastrous results to civilization.
The CCP has had considerably longer than Nazi Germany. So yeah I think the CCP reflects just fine the thoughts and attitudes of the Chinese people…..
EAM
Angelus, I do not agree at all. If you go to China and talk to Chinese (both within and outside the CCP), there is a considerable diversity of opinion. Even a cursory look at the literature in English will tell you that (eg Mark Leonard, What China Thinks). There are neo-Maoists, democrats, liberals, ultra-nationalists, all quite happy to tell you what they think.
Bharateeya
@Angelus512: Well, do you mean to say that the entire populations of the US, UK, India etc support every action of their Government? Protests are indicative of displeasure against the Government and act as a form of feedback to the Government. One can see plenty of protests in most democracies. This feedback mechanism isn’t there in China & therefore all actions of CPC are not reflective of it’s people and culture…
Angelus512
Dont agree and think its very short sighted. No the US, UK etc government are not representative of ALL their population their is no such thing as a homogenous decision.
But those governments do represent the majority of those people and therefore they are representative of the whole. I’m sorry but if a gov represents the majority thinking then that is respective and applied to the populace.
The difference is when the opinion changes those governments can be voted out.
The CCP remains because the majority are perfectly happy with it therefore yes those population of china is just as responsible for the CCP’s decision making. They are allowing them to remain in power simple as that.
Anything else like ohh but but they have so much power. Well so did the government before and the CCP still came from nothing. They are here because the majority is perfectly fine with what they do.
Bharateeya
@Angelus: It’s wrong to mistake their silence as consent for all Governmental policies. Single party systems across the World rule through a mixture of fear, intimidation & propoganda. The CPC has indeed offered much more to China than just propoganda. Their impressive growth rates are proof of good intentions for their subjects. But not all of it’s policies are correct/beneficial to its subjects. Criticism of the CPC is still a dangerous, potentially self destructive exercise.
Given the choice of enjoying prosperity but not speaking out as against criticizing the CPC and incurring it’s wrath, the people have gone for the former.
And of course, you are free to disagree. This isn’t China!
nirvana
The flaw of the article is that it allows an amalgam of Chinese, China, Beijing and the military faction in the CPC that is influencing Beijing foreign policy tremendously.
Change the title into “The scorpion nature of a military dictatorship”, you get the right picture.
Mr.Nguyen
Never believe China in its saying, look at its doing.
Frank
Totally agree.
Please read our history. If not 8,000 years long, there is no dispute that our documented history is at least 4,000 years long in the same charaters similar to the ones still used today.
klaus funkwagen
If China is a scorpion, does that make the U.S. sub-zero?
njchiasson
No but it makes east asia in dire need of a fatality.
Frank
Evil.
However, I think China and USA are nothing more than everybody for themselves. They are no more evil than those smaller countries.
Smaller ones are just powerless.
angelus512
I read at least half of the posts here. The first half was easily the most civil of discussions.
But I did read one post like many of read before that pontificates that one day “China will rise and rule the world order” or general words to that effect.
Well recent history is filled with one such nation not so long ago that pursued a similar path and got its a$$ handed to it. If China wants to emulate Germany go ahead, we all know how that story plays out.
End of the day the international order is absolutely not accommodating anymore of countries going after big land/resource grabs.
There is one clear confident truth I can speak of. If China wants to go around on a land grab/resource grab mission then yes you will come up against the US. Do you think a US v China 1 on 1 death match is going to result in a Chinese victory? 1 to 1….unlikely but hard to say.
But the real world would never be like that. China has absolutely no clear friends of status/power in the world outside failed states like Burma and North Korea.
The key difference which will determine any future foreseeable war and any potential belligerence on China’s part will be the fact that the US has friends and China has none.
So if any Zhongguo poster wants to flabbergast me with mythical facts about how China can take on
South Korea, Japan, Australia, Singapore, Vietnam, Phillipines, US and even potentially some of the European powers although that last part is unlikely then sure….astound me.
venkat
@angelus512 – “China has absolutely no clear friends of status/power in the world outside failed states like Burma and North Korea.”
You forgot to mention their all weather ally “Pakistan”, the breeding ground of world terrorism.
Waiting to see this Pakistan Scorpion to sting the Chinese frog. It may not happen in the next few years but it will happen for sure.
Watcher
In a small skirmish no European country will bother, but if a major war breaks out I can assure you many european countries will assist the US. Even smaller ones will send contingents. It is actually written into article 5 of the Nato treaty. You can count many coutries, not all powerful, but together there will be a substantial assistance!
JUSTSAYNO
If you want to talk about a far more realistic scenario, China will simply buy off the required politicians or the goodwill of the people in South Asian region and get what they want.
It’s quite silly to think that China will engage in an armed conflict when it doesn’t need to. The pundits who love to paint these odd scenarios like the author of this article are doing so because they are paid by the defense lobbyists. The readers who actually think these scenarios will come true are just ignorant. In reality if China wishes to screw with its neighbors all it has to do is to deny them the Chinese market in favor of someone else. For example, if China wishes disrupt the unity of its neighbors all its needs to do is increase the tariff on Japanese goods while give favorable trade status for S.Korea goods. Since S.Korea and Japan are running billions of trade surpluses against China, the lose of Chinese market will likely to cause turmoil, unrest, and disunity. By the same token, the US can easily harm China by banning all Chinese products. This will do far more damage to China than US’ weapons. However US will not do this because its economy will be destroyed right alongside China and the countries who depend on China’s market (Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Germany, and the US make the top 5).
angelus512
Lol thats funny. China has no market. It’s economy is basically and enormously dependent on a foreign investment and export model.
Its internal consumption rates are ridiculously low and incapable of supporting a developed economy. The CCP knows this and has taken steps to recitfy but it will take a long time.
In addition the internal consumption of western products or anything from overseas here is even lower. Chinese simply buy whatever is cheapest generally speaking and have large support for local brands. I know because I live here.
If China closes its market to the west so what? Most of the companies here are labouring under onerous regulatory frameworks, incompetent JV partners and IP stealing thieves.
Closing of the market absolutely does not have the profound effect some of you think it would. Frankly things would just shit elsewhere like India or Thailand or Vietnam.
China only products widgets and toys and their internal consumption is not orientated towards imports.
a_canadian_observer
Agreed! And in N.A. people are quietly boycotting chinese made goods, especially food. china is facing multiple internal problems, that’s why it has stirred up nationalism and the SEA sea issue to divert people’s attention.
JUSTSAYNO
“China has no market. It’s economy is basically and enormously dependent on a foreign investment and export model. Chinese simply buy whatever is cheapest generally speaking and have large support for local brands. I know because I live here.”
It’s too bad basic facts don’t support your argument. First, most of the successful emerging and developed economies relies on exports. Regarding China’s imports, is it that difficult to look up information on how much China imports and exports? 19.4% of all Japanese exports come from China, close to 4% more than the US. For S.Korea, 27.9% of their exports are going to China compared to only 10.2% going to the US. In fact, if you look at export/import figures China generally imports more than it exports with the exception of US. Even with the US, its not like Chinese don’t like US products (CK jeans and coach bags are sold out in Shanghai for 300%+ the price they cost in the US), its that the US companies don’t generally understand the Chinese market. The few US companies which do get it like GM sells more of their products in China than the US.
If China closes its market to Western nations or other China tigers the impact will be painful to say the least. For Asian nations the implications are clear enough: When a whole country lose 20-30% of revenue originated from exporting to China it will translate to millions of jobs lost and political unrest. For western nations whose exports to China are less China is still extremely important because the majority of the bluechip global companies see China as a growth market. It’s much easier to take an undeveloped market than to compete in an existing market with lots of players. You only need to watch how the stock market moves to understand the influence of Chinese economy.
I don’t live in China but I work for a US company managing a sales team for the Asian region and travel frequently between US, China, India, Singapore, Korea, and Malaysia. China is a difficult market to crack but sales in China is definitely growing and the cost of sales in China is actually far less than that of Japan and Korea.
Davis
Just do the math! US trade DEFICIT with China in 2010 is 273 billion dollars!!! Who needs who here?? Don’t brag too much! You will see more coming trade protectionism !Don’t ever boast about the ‘Chinese market’ because China will never abandon its merchantilism till it collapses economically!!It’s about time for the US taking care of its people before the ‘China cobra’ ( not scorpion!)gives it a final lethal bite right in the face!!!
Nguoiphanbien
China is a street fighter dressed in casual wear.
The US is a sinister schemer dressed in three piece suit wearing a big smile.
The author of this article is a racist wearing a scholarly rope pretending to be funny. (Note to the editor of the Diplomat: I challenge you to show me the author did not equate Chinese government policy with the nature of the Chinese people as clearly implied in the article. If this is not racist, what is? And if the Diplomat is condoning a racist article, it must allow me to voice my opposition to it for fairness sake)
EAM
Nguoiphanbien, I am afraid there may some truth in waht you say. This does seem to have a smell of prejudice, even if it is in scholarly garb. I sometimes am aghast at the violent rhetoric of some of the Chinese bloggers but when you see thing kind of this, you kind of understand why they go so ferral. For every action , an equal and opposite reaction as they say.
Frank
I agree that this article does seem to have a smell of racial prejudice.
ozivan
@Nguoiphanbien & EAM. The Scorpion and frog fable showed the Professor’s deep seated racial profiling, however long he had hidden his true feelings for the Chinese. Professor James R Holmes couldn’t hold his disdain, scorn and contempt for the Chinese nation and all things Chinese – people, culture and thoughts. He’ll be a boon to anti-China bloggers, and a sad loss to pro-China lobby when he becomes non-neutral as a author.
Better know the devil than the devil you don’t know.
Pray that he will change his views, but..sigh, I doubt so. A leopard will never change his spot.
a_canadian_observer
@nguoiphanbien, EAM and ozivan: Frankly, I don’t see how this article reflects racism.
Frank
How do you feel about an article titled:
Is India a dog?
a_canadian_observer
Dear the moderator: Why is the below comment allowed here?
“Frank October 21, 2011 at 6:36 pm
How do you feel about an article titled:
Is India a dog?”
ozivan
@Frank. I urge you to refrain from strong, racial slurring statements; especially against Indians. I feel disturbed reading such comment as I have many good Indian friends.
It is unhelpful to bloggers, like me, who are sympathetic to China.
I have to agree with @a_canadian_observer that the moderator should disallow such comment.
Viet
@Ozivan – my hat off to you. I wish there are more of Chinese bloggers like you in this blog. Again, thanks.
Frank
I have “Indian” friends too. They are Tamils. Not Indians.
Nguoiphanbien
@a_canadian_observer
You don’t feel this article reflects racism because you have been coloured by your anti-China attitude. I’m Vietnamese and I’ll fight China on issues that I feel the opposing side of the Chinese is right and just. But I will stand shoulder to shoulder with the Chinese when they are the target of racism. Racism is the common enemy of humanity; whether they are in words or in deeds.
EAM
The question is whether asking is “China is a scorpion” racist? If you substitute “China” for “Russia”, “India” the “US” or “France”, would have any doubts? This is a very dangerous tack for the US to take (if this suggests a particular line of thinking), that is whipping up anti-Chinese prejudice in this way.
If this is what happens, you can expect that most people in the region (including Australia) will back China and recoil from the US. The comments made by Indian and Vietnamese bloggers gives you a sense of that. The approach is plain unacceptable – and if the US goes this way, only the US loses.
However, I am pretty confident that most Americams do not think like this. Rather than making up “scorpion” enemies, you guys would be better off going after your real enemimes, the crooks on Wall Street who smashed up your country!!
LeonO
Sorry mate, but Australia would never support China against U.S.A. The best China could hope for would be for Australia to remain neutral and even that would be extremely unlikely.
a_canadian_oserver
@Nguoiphanbien: I agree with you that racism is common enemy of humanity, and I commend you for your clear stand. However, I still failed to see racism in the article, after re-reading it. BTW, I’ve asked my Vietnamese Canadian friends (some of whome are actually chinese Vietnamese) to read it, and they agreed with me.
Frank
“Frankly, I don’t see how this article reflects racism.”
As long as the racism is not toward me.
Simply because the title is Is “China a Scorpion?” not “Is India a dog?”
yang tsup
end the dispute in SCS finalized the current status, all of occupied parts by claimants remain their territory..
David Livingston
Mubarak,Saddam Hussein,and now Gaddafi were stung by the American Scorpion!
Lest we forget, these people were American allies and proxies at one time or other.
Saddam fought Iran when egged on by the American.
And we know, Mubarak was carrying out all the tortures on behalf of his American friend but alas, this friend stung him in his time of need!
Should the Saud,the Kuwaitis and the Bharanis fear this Scorpion, lest they in turn will be administered the deadly sting?
a_canadian_observer
@David Livingston: Gaddafi was American ally? Give me a break! You’ve just invalidated your point of view, my friend.
N.M.
While China is in “aggressive central-party policy” mode big time, it will not start the next world war (i.e. the last world war). Pakistan will!
The writing is on the wall, within five years Pakistan will fall in a coup to an radical Islamic faction of the army or disintegrate into regional militant groups seeking control. Special forces efforts to collect the PAMs and warheads will only be partially successful (since any coup will first take effective control of the PAMs, warheads and missiles which are all stored in separate depots).
India will totally freak and launch a preemptive nuclear strike to prevent what they view as an assured impeding strike by Pakistan. China will most likely get involved and launch on India, due to mutual distruct. If they also take out Honolulu and LA, of course the US will respond. However, the exchange may indeed stay regional — who knows.
But even then you are looking at a hundred million plus dead, dying and starving, massive economic devastation and a global version of nuclear winter. No winners there!
Pakistan is the new fatal knife to the world’s throat, not China.
Crazy? During the 2000-2001 Kargil War they came as close to a nuke exchange as the Cuban Missile Crisis. US State Department was ordering Americans to leave India in late summer 2000. How soon we forget!
Of course I hope I am so very wrong!
N.M.
Leonard R.
N.M.’s scenario is plausible.
The only fault I have with it is that NM assumes China’s civilian government can control the acts of the PLA. There is a evidence this is not true. In fact, it seems the PLA talks or acts and then Beijing has to clean up the mess post hoc.
But I do agree Pakistan is very unstable and is more likely to start a new world war than the PRC. But I acknowledge the real possibility that one of the little emperors can go rogue. They have done it before – more than once. And in fact, it has happened this year.
EAM
Leno. if the US goes off the rails – and China remains an anchor of stability, we will have no choice. I am confident that the US will not go off the rails – but if it happens, we need to be clear that we will have limited choices.
I recall that Alexander Downer said that if war breaks between the US and China over Taiwan, we will remain neutral. Even I would not go so far and would be of the view that if war did break out (once again unlikely) we would need to look at the question on the mertits. But Downer is on the record as saying this – so what I am saying is not out of the realms of the possible.
As for our relations with China, they are deeper than what most Australins imagine. For example, the Liberal Party and the CCP have a relationship that most Australians would not be aware of. Malcolm Turnbull observes that the “Communist Party of China presents as a modern political party. Indeed they have sent official delegations to our Liberal Party conferences in Australia – something which would, I suspect, make Sir Robert Menzies and the cold warriors of his day turn in their graves”.
http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/uncategorized/%E2%80%98same-bed-different-dreams%E2%80%99-asia%E2%80%99s-rise-a-view-from-australia/
Noting that Liberal Party conferances are closed to the public (unlike ALP conferances), one does need to take note of the fact that the CCP has the door open to parts of the political process that even the Australian public has no access to.
There will of course be different views within Australia but I would guess that what most Australians think on these questions, if they presented with all the information, may come as a suprise.
Frank
“Alexander Downer said that if war breaks between the US and China over Taiwan, we will remain neutral.”
George W Bush said “You are either with us, or against us”
If you are against the US of A, they will kill you all.
EAM
I did say that I am not sure what Downer said is something I agree with. It all depends on the circumstances. However, we have come a long way with the Americans and that is not going to change. My only point is that our alliance with the US is solid but not unconditional. No alliance ever is.
Frank
George W Bush said “You are either with us, or against us”