When China began testing its first aircraft carrier earlier this month, Washington was quick to issue a stern rebuke, scolding Beijing for its lack of transparency regarding the vessel’s purpose. ‘We would welcome any kind of explanation,’ US State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said.
But in an increasingly tense western Pacific, both the United States and China are guilty of obfuscation about their military capabilities. It recently came to light the Pentagon appears to have lied about the condition of its small fleet of radar-evading B-2 stealth bombers, one of its most important weapon systems in its campaign of deterrence against a rising China.
The US Air Force possesses some 160 long-range bombers – the biggest fleet of bombers in the world. But only 20 are the latest B-2 model, designed to be largely invisible to enemy radars. The Air Force stations a dozen or so bombers at a time at its large air base on Guam, where they form a major part of the United States’ Pacific arsenal.
In 2008, a B-2 crashed at Guam, reducing the stealth fleet to its current level. In the wake of the accident, critics bemoaned the Pentagon’s tendency to concentrate increasing combat power in a decreasing number of ultra-expensive ‘platforms.’
In February 2010, there was another incident involving a Guam-based B-2 – a fire in one of the bomber’s two engines. At the time, the Air Force reported the damage as ‘minor.’ And that was the last any outsider heard of the incident for more than a year.
Then, last week, the Air Force admitted that the damaged bomber had been so badly burned that it had been unable to fly for more than a year. The damage was, in fact, ‘horrific.’ Engineers had to custom-manufacture replacement components at Guam in order to partially rebuild the plane and allow it to return to the United States for more extensive rework on Aug. 16.
In other words, for 18 months America’s stealth-bomber fleet included 19 working airplanes, rather than 20, as most people believed. The Air Force’s deliberate obfuscation boosted the B-2 fleet’s apparent strength by more than 5 percent.
China’s strategists ‘believe that as the weaker party it must use ambiguity to compensate for technological inferiority,’ says Andrew Erickson, a professor and analyst at the US Naval War College. Despite broad (though eroding) superiority over the People’s Liberation Army, the Pentagon appears to have misled about the condition of its stealth bombers apparently for a similar reason: to project an exaggerated image of strength.
Rather than misrepresenting the delicacy of its dangerously over-concentrated combat power, the United States could take Erickson’s advice, and ‘consider shifting at least some operations from large, tightly-grouped targets ... to smaller, dispersed, networked elements.’
As far as bombers are concerned, in the future the Air Force should build more than 21 at a time, stresses Marine Corps Maj. Gen. James Cartwright. ‘Building five or 10 of something isn’t going to do something for us.’
The Pentagon aims to build as many as 100 new, stealthy ‘Long-Range Strike’ bombers to begin replacing existing planes, starting in around a decade. With that many new stealth bombers, hopefully the Air Force won’t feel compelled to act like China, and hide it when one of its planes suffers an accident.








yang zi
U.S. is very good at creating rules and morals that benefits itself. its ability to force/induce the world to accept them is astonding. this constitutes the might of its soft power.
However, its hubris sometimes traps itself in these norms and morals.
Cyrus
The reason mainly is the US uses peaceful and economic means usually. By pumping US Aid and other funds making the country amicable to US plans.
That is one thing sorely missing with China and hence the reaction of the world. Since its approach is one of Military Flexing and forcing the weaker nations to submit to its will or face force. Which of course, is impossible to attract a lot of friends.
John Chan
USA has been bombing and killing non-stop since WWII. Regime Change, and AirSea and AirLand massacre technology are the tools to terrorize everyone in the world. Only shameless people competing each other for the top dog position in the rank of USA’s lackeys will praise USA like Cyrus.
Reason
@John Chan,
John, mate… the CCP has been butchering it’s own people since the time of its inception.
It launched a reign of terror in Yan’nan
Subjected cities like Changchun to horrific sieges that makes the death toll in Nanjing look paltry
Created the Great Leap Forward which led to the greatest human famine of all time
The Cultural Revolution that systematically destroyed one of the Greatest cultures on the planet
Instigated a biblical killing of unborn children that has severely hinder the greater population of China
and has quietly repressed any Chinese person who is out of step with the CCP for decades.
When it comes to destruction and killing the Chinese government has no competitor
To use a Chinese media saying about the US defense spending…
When it comes to killing the CCP out kills the next Top 10 killers
So…. really, go ahead with the US anti-rhetoric… but what are you offering…?
A world where we can all look forward to our culture or lives been trashed if we don’t agree with a small band of Chinese elites….
John Chan
@Reason:
You try to prove I am “The pot calling the kettle black” in order to white wash the wrongdoings the US and its lackeys (the Westpac) have been conducting since WWII.
Don’t you realise there is a fundamental difference between the pot (China) and the kettle (the Westpac), let me reason you as the following:
The things you listed about China are China’s internal affairs. Your list is a list that foreigners labelled China unfairly, it is an act of interfering other nation’s internal affairs, which is predatory hegemony behaviour with insidious intent, usually it is the prelude of bombing and killing for a regime change.
The following illustrations prove how wrong you (as rep of the Westpac) are in labelling those events in your list. Both USA civil war and China’s culture revolution were brutal, destructive and violent in similar magnitude, why do you glorified USA civil war but demonized China’s culture revolution? Is it because you feel you have the divine right to butcher other human fellows without being judged?
Here is another case to prove you have labelled those events erroneously in your list. You claimed that maintaining law and order in China were violating human rights, but how are those police actions different from the brutal suppression of civil unrests in England? Why is it legitimate for David Cameron to call the Jasmine freedom fighters street rioters and thugs? How can British have the right to crash them by whatever means without being bothered by the phony human rights concerns? Is it because you feel you have the divine right to abuse other human fellows without being judged?
China is only minding its internal affairs, and maintaining law and order in order to have a stable environment for Chinese to catch up the living standard of the developed world. Yet you are bombing and killing for regime changes all over the world without being invited. Reason, why is it so wrong for China to look after itself, while it is so right for you carrying out murderous activities all over the world with impunity? Is it because you feel you are the God chosen one and have the divine right to abuse other human fellows?
Reason, can you see now? Smearing China cannot white wash the evil deeds of the Westpac, remorse is the correct way to go.
ozivan
@Reason. As I read, you’re against butchering your own people, while John Chan argues that butchering any one, whether your own kind or peoples of other nations, is equally wrong.
Sorry..mate, I buy John Chan’s arguments.
When you point the finger at John Chan vis-a-vis China, you’re pointing 3 other fingers back at yourself.
1. See Iraq & Mr Mareno-Ocampo
==============================
The US caused hundreds of thousands in deaths, seriously wounded, made children ophans, Abu Ghraib, plus countless casualties arising from sectarian feuds unleashed by US occupation of Iraq based on false intelligence of WMD. And the US & UK have not only NOT made any apologies for the mistake, but instead switched the justification from WMD to the righteousness of regime change.
While offenders against humanity from the Balkans, Afica and Libya have been, or will be, charged in the International Criminal Court, why is Tony Blair, George Bush and those experts who drew up the false reports still running around enjoying life in retirement ?
Where’s the justice that you stand for…Mr Moreno-Ocampa ? Someone behind your back is guiding your hand to write out the ICC’s arrest warrants.
Prosecuting against offenders of humanity is a good cause and ideal,… dear Mr Moreno-Ocampa,… but if your hand is selective, what legitimacy do you carry ?
Do not for a moment think that individuals like me, who do not have the State as my backing (like David Cameron & Sarkosky have) to prevent your unfair hand, are blind and not know the inequality.
2. Re: Vietnam
==============
Then what about the millions who had died in the Vietnam war and agent orange that has caused heinous disfigurements and maiming of children. 3 weeks ago, it was shown on Australian SBS TV, a documentary on the after effects of agent orange on kids, pictures of them were broadcasted, the effects that have now gone down to 4th generation babies. A Vietnamese Cabinet Minister who was interviewed commented that it is so inhumane, particularly, that the US is turning a blind eye and ignored about aid for these kids.
All those cruel campaigns were because of ideology. For the Vietnamese, they just wanted a United Vietnam…that’s all, nothing else.
What other proof do the world need to see that Vietnam has no evil designs or any threat whatsoever for the West,…than shown by their peaceful existence since the war ?
3. Regime Change…New war language & justification
===================================================
New wars…initiated by UK, France & US grow out from the ideology of “Regime Change”.
Regime change or fallacy and veil ?
Yesterday,…you backed dictators to the hilt. Today,…you trumped humanitarian protection through regime change.
All those were utter rubbish,…your end game was to plunder resources, grap at their foreign reserves, and reap juicy contracts after joyfully bombing them to stoneage…time and time again. Unless, a nation is pliable to the West eg Bahrain, Yemen…you will not be SALVAGED but SAVAGED.
If it were not so, you would have attacked Syria at the same time you did to Libya. Dispose the regimes in Bahrain & Yemen, just as quickly. Afghanistan because of 9/11 was a just invasion, but not others.
MIGHT is RIGHT is what you worship.
Everything else, humanitarian protection, world justice, world stability, etc…are only excuses.
That’s also known as REALPOLITIK.
scrow
@Cyrus
china like the US has contributed a lot towards the economies of developing countries.China has helped build roads, schools, wharves, provided scholarship to students ands the list goes. The same goes for the US. However, the events in the spratly sea and wihtin China (e.g.Tibet, detention of democracy activitist, Taiwan) goes to show its bad side. The US is also in a similar situation. For example, Iraq, and Guantanamo,do not make the US any more friendly. So do not be biased when commenting on China
a_canadian_observer
@scrow: Can you provide links to prove that china “has contributed a lot towards the economies of developing countries.China has helped build roads, schools, wharves, provided scholarship to students ands the list goes”(of course, without any hidden agenda)?
SimoSays
@scrow Finally, a rational mind. Gotta agree with you.
@canadian observor There are certainly suspicious of China’s ulterior motives, but then again, there are just as many conspiracy theories about IMF and World Bank “helping” developing countries or those in financial crises. (Not that I agree of course).
John Chan
http://aidwatchers.com/2010/02/china-in-africa-myths-and-realities/ and google “china aid to Africa.”
Sam
Certainly one should not interfere in another country’s internal affairs according to John. So if I see my neighbor murdering his child next door I should leave them alone because it is internal to his house. The only problem here is that any country on China’s border will sooner or later become internal to China. Then it becomes China’s internal affair if it massacres all the locals in the new “part” of China and sucks up all their resources for its use. Now it is building roads and dams in Pakistan occupied Kashmir, a part of India that was not Pakistan’s to give to anybody and soon the Chinese will plan to live there to “maintain” the roads, dams, bridges and, pipelines to the Middle East and other oil and gas resources of Central Asia. All of these people are thirsting for China’s culture and revolution, no doubt, they just do not know it yet. But then the Chinese are always ahead in their thinking and are willing to lend their brains regardless of invitation or welcome. Of course by then POK will be China’s internal problem and no one should or can interfere, right? Just like your friendly, local python and its internal affairs.
John Chan
@Sam:
Things seen in hallucination are not reality. Treating excessive conjecture as real is hallucination. You are conjecturing excessively about China with your bigotry mindset, your comment becomes serious disconnected from reality like hallucination.
Cyrus
There was never an infrastructure that I could read here donated by China. I read a few by USAID, Japan, and Germany. I fail to see anyone coming from China. So I do not really get where you are seeing those.
Sam
“The US is also in a similar situation. For example, Iraq, and Guantanamo,do not make the US any more friendly. So do not be biased when commenting on China”
Somebody attacked the US and killed 3000 innocent civilians in New York city, America’s economic hub, the Pentagon and the White House and the US retaliated and Guantanamo and Iraq were the result. It may have convenient, may be also trumped up, but the attack was real.
Who attacked China? It is not remotely similar.
Cyrus
@Ozivan Yes the US is never perfect. Agent Orange was a very bad mistake instead of destroying foliage so that the Vietcongs cannot hide from the US Armed Forces it resulted to a very dangerous biological weapon.
Regime change is always good if done for the people who are being oppressed by their own leaders. It is justifiable, Yemen, Bahrain, and Syria right now is a result of partial REALPOLITIK and the fear of the US to intervene against after Iraq. The party in power now is the Democrats and the ones who conquered Iraq was Republicans.
The reason why they are free to roam and not being tried.
1.) The United States and United Kingdom are permanent members of the Security Council and they have a veto power. Just like China during the Tianmen and Tibet which was never heard of in any Human Rights Court.
2.) The reason for the invasion is the intelligence report of WMD which Saddam had used before on his own people the Kurds to be specific. Which gives a light of legitimacy to the intelligence report. Saddam’s rhetoric’s of attacking the United States.
International Relations puts it that Municipal Law supersedes International Law. The United States Declared a war against Iraq therefore it is a lawful war. (no matter how we argue that it has not the blessing of the United Nations) It might not be perfect but that is International Law and that is how the United Nations work.
B.Smitty
The US should build more than 21 at a time??? Well Duuuhh!
That was the plan all along until the program was abruptly truncated to 21.
Dale
You’re seriously quibbling over 19 .vs. 20?
Reason
Actually…. this article is total rubbish.
The US government hid that it only had 19 B2s rather than 20.
Total TWODDLE… who cares.
Like the PLA thinks… “damn, if we’d have known that they only had 19 B2s we’d have invaded Taiwan…. crap we missed our chance there boys. Now Taiwann is forver lost to us because they repaired the burnt B2….. which we didn’t know about..”
Total rubbish article
spud
Sometimes I wonder why I bother reading the articles on this site any-more. what a completely pointless article. they “lied” about 1 aircraft? It is more likely that if that plane was really needed it could have been repaired much, much faster but due to budgetary reason, maintenance schedules and the availability of skilled personal who were working on other craft/projects meant that the unneeded aircraft was not rushed back into service.
B2
“a fire in one of the bomber’s two engines.” sorry, b2 has four engines. Get your facts straight before posting such nonsense.
Bobby
Thanks for pointing that out. It is amazing when someone missed the basic information while trying to appear “ooh… so dangerous” by spreading what amounted to be pure speculation.
What’s even more hilarious is when, as soon as any negative news about the US or US military appears, the anti-US crowd immediately feeds on it like there is no tomorrow.
John Chan
@Bobby:
Please don’t whine, at least the anti-US crowd is clapping their hands on the fact; China has been subjected to unfair demonization on fabricated facts/news relentlessly for years, not only on this site, it is all over the internet.
Bobby
Nobody is whining but you, who seemed to spend all day on this site drumming up the propaganda and anti-American rhetorics. I don’t see anyone clapping at the facts, except for those who are so quick to comment on any topics and every topic. It is as if the propaganda machine never sleeps… Now, that’s also hilarious.
John Chan
@Bobby:
USA to me is just like USA to Ron Paul, Peter Schiff and NIA.
Sam
“Both USA civil war and China’s culture revolution were brutal, destructive and violent in similar magnitude, why do you glorified USA civil war but demonized China’s culture revolution?”
US Civil War:
During the American Civil War, the Union was a name used to refer to the federal government of the United States, which was supported by the twenty free states and five border slave states. It was opposed by 11 Southern slave states that had declared a secession to join together to form the Confederacy. Although the Union states included the Western states of California, Oregon, and (after 1864) Nevada, as well as states generally considered to be part of the Midwest, the Union has been also often loosely referred to as “the North”, both then and now.
War or conflict Date Deaths Total dead
and wounded
Civil War:
total 1861–1865 212,938 ~625,000
Union 140,414 224,097 646,392
Confederate 72,524 ~260,000
American dead in all wars from the beginning to today (1775 to present): 1,343,812 including combat and other deaths
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war
The worst genocides of the 20th Century
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
The crimes committed by right-wing dictators have always been easier to track down than the crimes against humanity committed by communist leaders, so the figures for communist leaders like Stalin and Mao increase almost yearly as new secret documents become available. To this day, the Chinese government has not yet disclosed how many people were executed by Mao’s red guards during the Cultural Revolution and how many people were killed in Tibet during the Chinese invasion of 1950. We also don’t know how many dissidents have been killed by order of Kim Il Sung in North Korea, although presumably many thousands. Source:http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
I think the difference is the American Civil War freed slaves and the Chinese revolution gave us present day China. I will leave it at that.
John Chan
@Sam:
You are mistaken; American Civil War was not about freeing black slaves. Here is an evidence to expose your hierocracy and sanctimony.
Martin Luther King’s Address at March on Washington
August 28, 1963. Washington, D.C.
Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity.
But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition.
In a sense we have come to our nation’s capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. …
Here is the link to the full speech. http://www.mlkonline.net/dream.html
Martin was a burden too much for the American’s conscience, so the Americans has to kill him in order they can carry on bombing and killing without abide.
Americans should listen Martin’s speech before they go to bed, then the world would be a lot more peaceful.
Sam
@John
Hallucinate on this!
The worst genocides of the 20th Century
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
Black Americans just elected a President! You can link to speech after speech which goes to show that you do not understand the difference between a slave and someone fighting for equality. In terms you can understand a slave is a Tibetan or an Uighur in China today. A person fighting for equality is a Han Chinese worker asking for higher wages in a Foxconn plant.
Last if you write hallucinate four times in a post it just shows your inability to express yourself in English and how frustrated you are in doing so, because you do not know any other words or their usage in idiomatic English. I hope you understood a tenth of what I just wrote or you may have to return to class in those rooms without windows in Beijung. No fun at all, but you will understand slavery there. Good luck and stick to single sentences with small words or you will expose yourself to ______(fill in the blank as an exercise).
Of course you missed the date of the speech and its connection to what Mao Ze Dong was doing (or not) at about the same time. Then again you simply are not the bright to begin with so this is expected.
Sam
Another of Sam’s “hallucinations”From the Economist. Right John? Sure here you go, hallucinate on this!
“The Chinese connection
Aug 29th 2010, 11:58 by Banyan
It will also have noticed and been concerned by China’s increased activity in Pakistan’s “Northern Areas” (which were recently renamed as Gilgit-Baltistan), the north-western part of the old J&K kingdom. Chinese soldiers there are working on road, railway and other infrastructure projects. This will provide a fast route into western China from the port it is building at Gwadar, on Pakistan’s shore of the Arabian Sea.
According to Selig Harrison, an American analyst, writing in the New York Times, the Chinese influence is greater than had been known and Pakistan “is handing over de facto control” of Gilgit-Baltistan, which is suffering a simmering revolt against Pakistani rule. He says between 7,000 and 11,000 Chinese troops are there.”
The whole world is hallucinating John but you have firm grip on the facts, don’t you? One day soon the guys in the white coats will show up and you can talk to them about this. Any day now John, any day now.
John Chan
@Sam:
You are missing the point; nobody is glorifying neither Mao nor culture revolution. Every Chinese knows Mao is a controversial figure, even the CCP admitted Mao had made a lot mistakes. Every Chinese also knows that culture revolution was a disaster. But my question to you is why Chinese can face the reality and admit what is wrong and what is right, why can’t you (the rep of the Westpac)? Why can’t the USA admit that the civil war was a massive butchering contest like the Culture Revolution, and it was not about freeing the Black?
Chinese admitted their wrong and took actions to correct the wrong, why can’t the American do the same and took affirmative actions to free the Black from discrimination and poverty?
Sam
It is admirable that you are concerned that black workers in America are poor and you are bringing up their plight for all to see. You can help by raising the Chinese currency exchange rate vis a vis the US dollar so they can be employed again. i have written about that elesewhere.
Why do the Chinese go to Africa and employ Chinese workers to build roads, operate the mines and extract the raw materials for export to China. Are they not equally black in Africa? Do you deny local people employment everywhere you go? Is that your government’s policy?
John Chan
It seems USA unable to solve problems on its own, USA always asks China to do things for the USA to solve problems. Sam, I have better idea to solve USA’s problems for good, then USA does not need to keep on bitching China. Why doesn’t USA ask China to run USA as a trust for 100 years, after Chinese has fixed all the problems then returns USA to the Americans.
Sam
Let me understand this John.
You say “Chinese admitted their wrong and took actions to correct the wrong”. So you mean the Chinese admitted to the Tibetans that they were wrong to kill so many of them, apologized publicly and returned their country back to them and compensated the victims for their misfortune? I must have missed that news article as not much gets out of there unless people like you write about it. It is also difficult to overlook that there are four Chinese people in some kind of uniform to every Tibetan in Lhasa today. That must be a big apology of some kind. No outsiders were allowed in there recently for some religious celebration so they could keep apologizing in private also, maybe. You know how religious the Chinese are, don’t you John?
Or do you mean the Chinese learnt from their original mistake of publicly acknowledging, slowly, over many years as it was dragged out of them, that 78 million people were killed, by quickly and quietly burying the first car of the damaged bullet train with all the dead and dying people in it just last month as a way of fixing that pesky problem of news getting out about dead and dying people? That is one tradition that is alive (sorry!) and well in China even today.
What do you mean when you write this, John Chan? Is that how the Chinese admit their wrong and take action to correct it?
Cyrus
Maybe admitting that they don’t own the Spratly’s would be a nice start John.
John Chan
@Sam:
I believe you are financially illiterate; how can making Chinese goods, which most low income Americans rely on, more expensive help the American poor? Your logic is beyond me, only redneck like you who does not care his country fellows can say such heartless things as in your comment.
Chinese hire locals as many as possible wherever they carry out projects in other nations. It is well documented by international NGOs. You are smearing China shamelessly.
China raised the living standards for the minorities in China including Tibetans. Culture Revolution was a mistake. Why can’t you (the rep of Westpac) admit the atrocity you have been conducting around the world? Particular why didn’t the British show remorse for the tens of thousands of Tibetans they had killed and raped, as well the monasteries they burnt and sucked?
Sam, you are lying with eyes wide open, where does you number come from, thru the thin air like the Fed printing the USD? Only the Westpac can achieve such horrendous atrocity through two world wars and other bombings and killings ever since the industrial revolution.
Sam why don’t you tell us about number of people killed in the US derailing last week? Or about the number killed by radiation in the Fukushima? And how did USA and Japan cover those disasters up? Only pointing finger on a scapegoat is your way of avoiding responsibility and accountability for your disasters?
John Chan
@Sam:
Where did you get your numbers? Thru the thin air? 78 million was more than 10% of the population of that time, that number would mean dead in every family. It would be bodies all over the street. Where is your proof? You are not only delusional, you are deadly insane.
You are using foul language because someone exposes your insanity? You are sick.
African Americans filled the prisons in the USA, and average African Americans income dropped in the last 20 years. Nothing in Martin’s speech has changed. Sam you are not only redneck bigot, and you have no compassion for your fellow citizen at all.
Sam
@John Chan
I put it in the first post John but you are too agitated to see it. I told you to keep taking the pills like your doctors asked you to and not stop even for a single day. But you did not listen to them, did you? So now you go ballistic on a blog like the Diplomat and efvryone can see how you react when you are unmasked and the facts come out. Here are my sources and as ozivan said I have put in the effort so you can benefit even if your English is non existent and you start foaming at the mouth. Here are the sources and I can provide them many times since it is a simple cut and paste much like your trolling on this site, John:
Civil War:
total 1861–1865 212,938
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war
The worst genocides of the 20th Century
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
Source: http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
But regardless of sources you must admit it is the numbers that get everybody’s attention. No amount of yelling and trying to sweep the facts under the rug will ever remove this stain from your conscience my friend. When you go to sleep every night these numbers and all those dead faces will stare at you for as long as they are able to keep you outside the room with the comfortable white walls. Keep this up and you will go there one day and it will seem oddly comforting, like you are going home. All those voices will talk to you until sleeping and waking are the same and those voices will cry out to you without stopping. Good luck buddy, just keep denying the facts as long as you can. I will be right here to provide the sources for you right up to the very end son.
Sam
@John Chan These were your ‘calm’ words of praise for my earlier post expressed in your inimitable use of the English language.
“I believe you are financially illiterate; how can making Chinese goods, which most low income Americans rely on, more expensive help the American poor? Your logic is beyond me, only redneck like you who does not care his country fellows can say such heartless things as in your comment”
Here is what one of the writers at this website said. You have even heard of it:
“From China and the US Downgrade By David Cohen in The Diplomat
It noted:
‘Dagong Global, a fledgling Chinese rating agency, degraded the US bonds late last year, yet its move was met then with a sense of arrogance and cynicism from some Western commentators. Now S&P has proved what its Chinese counterpart has done is nothing but telling the global investors the ugly truth.
‘China, the largest creditor of the world’s sole superpower, has every right now to demand the United States to address its structural debt problems and ensure the safety of China’s dollar assets.’
The Chinese government has good reasons to care about the strength of American bonds – but fears about repayment aren’t among them. Rather, China is effectively demanding that the United States implement industrial policy on its behalf: by selling more and more treasury bonds, the US government has made it more expensive for China to maintain the strong dollar-renminbi exchange rate it has used for decades to subsidize Chinese exporters.
In order to make Chinese exports competitive, China has for decades been buying US dollars at a renminbi price most analysts consider overvalued – without government intervention, most say, it would be impossible to find someone willing to pay more than 4 RMB for a US dollar. So, as more dollars are released into the market in an effort to stimulate the American economy, Beijing will be forced either to buy a large portion of them at this inflated rate or to accept an exchange rate less favourable to Chinese exports.
Thus, it’s not surprising Dagong cited US monetary policy in its brief downgrade statement, referring to largely uncontroversial ‘quantitative easing’ – a policy recently pursued by the Federal Reserve and several European banks, which increases the supply of dollars – in apocalyptic terms. ‘It is natural that QE3 monetary policy will be enabled for the next step, which will throw the world economy into an overall crisis,’ they wrote. Monetary policy, which is funded by the Federal Reserve, has no direct implications for the Federal budget; if anything, expansionary policy like easing should reduce the burden of the debt.”
You can now return to your regular screaming, or something else. Unlike the Tibetans and Uighurs you are free to do what you want in your country. It is always useful if you can quote someone, anyone, even someone Han Chinese, or not, who backs up what you say. There are lots of them so go find one who says what you say, and quote him/her. It is quite simple. You must be learning from someone, because you were not born with all the knowledge in the world on day one, so just quote your source. Just turning up the volume and writing words like ‘insidious intent’ makes you look like someone copying out of a phrase book with only the vaguest idea of what you are saying.
Sam
John: Through all that gnashing of teeth you raise an interesting point entirely by accident and no fault of your own. “I believe you are financially illiterate; how can making Chinese goods, which most low income Americans rely on, more expensive help the American poor? ”
Here is how it works in reality, John. The US and the developed world believe in free markets as a means of raising living standards around the world, so they are willing to take some pain in the short run, in the hope that every country will follow the rules in what is known as ‘modern’ open market macroeconomics. This means not selling goods at prices below cost aka ‘dumping’, not manipulating your currency and so on. In short, being a good world citizen.
I said modern because lots of countries have done so in the past – Britain and Japan being examples, and were therefore called mercantilists. The thing was these countries and the other Asian Tigers were countries with small populations so when their per capita income rose significantly the other countries did not become appreciably poorer. Enter the BRIC economies, with their huge populations and the same story cannot be repeated without people noticing. So the standard approach here is to complain to whoever will listen, like the WTO before taking unilateral action. Why? Because every other country wants to be seen as a good global citizen, so punishing China is not in anybody’s interest unless it hurts locally. How? People lose their jobs and the poor go first. An unemployed poor person cannot buy anything, even the cheap Chinese stuff. Then it moves up the chain to richer people losing jobs, but they have clout politically. Since the poor are not buying anyway the government slaps a tariff on the Chinese stuff (without calling it a tariff on the Chinese stuff) though the Europeans probably have no such scruples. So now the Chinese stuff is quite expensive and for a while the local government collects lots of duty to fill its coffers on the back of these imports and the Chinese sell less. But what will the poor people buy when they run out of clothes or toys you say! They will be back on their knees begging, your friends tell you, to buy our melamine laced baby food and our lead painted toys, we have a contract, for god’s sake with reputable American companies! It is the sanctity of the law! Dream on. For every product, especially what the poor people buy, (I am yet to see someone poor put in an order for rare earth magnets), there are about fifty sources including your friends in Pakistan (watch them turn down an order because they are your friends, good luck with that), other BRIC nations who will happily fill in the vacuum at higher profit margins now that your goods are expensive to the end consumer. Oops, the money gusher has been shut off and damn Shanghai looks like a ghost town! Oh we will just sell to our own people you say. But nobody wants our stuff locally, they just do not need five pairs of WESTERN LOOKING JEANS in Hunan after the earthquake!! So what happens to your jeans? Simple. You sell it to some middleman in HK who will take it off your hands for 10% of what it cost you to make it if you deliver it to his loading dock and he will promise to pay you after he sells it at a profit. If not, tough tootsies baby! And you will run to him with tears of joy for doing you a favor. And what will he do? Why you have just met a representative of a global supply chain and your loss will enable him to sell it to the ‘poor person’ at the same price he/she has always paid and gradually as you go out of business someone else in the world from say, India will pick up the slack. But they have factories here you say and our workers are the best. Ya sure. Wake up and smell the coffee, nobody is indispensable. Your problem is that you think you are the center of the universe. And you are, as long as your products are cheap, and people do not levy duties on your stuff, which means your workers get slave wages and you keep your currency at the current level. Which means you have to buy American debt which is currently paying an interest of 2% for 10 year bonds for as long as you want to export to the US. All the US has to do is default and what happened to the value of those bonds? They are really pretty looking pieces of paper and they taste really good from what I have heard when you eat them. The problem with trust is that it cuts both ways. So now your workers cannot even get the slave wages they were getting, the trillions you hold are worth bubkus. All because you acted up when the world asked you to raise your exchange rate. And what is your currency worth now? Bye bye aircraft carrier! And where is your export market with 300% duty on every little piece of cloth and toy you were selling. But you wanted this and you got it. And John you are back to foaming at the mouth and it is not because of your toothpaste.
ozivan
@Sam. Overall, the 3 posts of September 3, 2011 you made were well presented, especially your arguments on economics, markets and currencies; irrespective whether I agree with all of them. Congratulations.
It would be even better if the ” digs ” on John Chan were omitted. Nonetheless, well done.
ozivan
@Sam. Sorry..Correction. It should read…” the 3 posts of September 2, 2011…”
Sam
@ozivan Re John You reap what you sow.
And words like “redneck bigot” and “Where is your proof? You are not only delusional, you are deadly insane. You are using foul language because someone exposes your insanity? You are sick.”
and here is another gem:
“I merely asked you some questions, yet you went berserk like overdosed thug.”
when you otherwise have nothing useful to say does not help your cause. I did not start this discussion. If he compared the US Civil War with the Long March that is one thing. They were military campaigns. But Mao’s Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward and here I cut and paste from Wikipedia tell the tale of a mass murderer gone mad, please note the dates:
“In the Jinggang Mountains, Mao persuaded two local insurgent leaders to pledge their allegiance to him. There, Mao joined his army with that of Zhu De, creating the Workers’ and Peasants’ Red Army of China, Red Army in short. Mao’s tactics were strongly based on that of the Spanish Guerrillas during the Napoleonic Wars.
From 1931 to 1934, Mao helped establish the Soviet Republic of China and was elected Chairman of this small republic in the mountainous areas in Jiangxi. Here, Mao was married to He Zizhen. His previous wife, Yang Kaihui, had been arrested and executed in 1930, just three years after their departure.
In Jiangxi, Mao’s authoritative domination, especially that of the military force, was challenged by the Jiangxi branch of the CPC and military officers. Mao’s opponents, among whom the most prominent was Li Wenlin, the founder of the CPC’s branch and Red Army in Jiangxi, were against Mao’s land policies and proposals to reform the local party branch and army leadership. Mao reacted first by accusing the opponents of opportunism and kulakism and then set off a series of systematic suppressions of them.[18]
It is reported that horrible methods of torture were employed under Mao’s direction.[19] and given names such as ’sitting in a sedan chair’, ‘airplane ride’, ‘toad-drinking water’, and ‘monkey pulling reins.’[19] The wives of several suspects had their breasts cut open and their genitals burned.[19] Short (2001) estimates that tens of thousands of suspected enemies,[20] perhaps as many as 186,000,[21] were killed during this purge. Critics accuse Mao’s authority in Jiangxi of being secured and reassured through the revolutionary terrorism, or red terrorism.[22]“. Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
All this for what is roughly tantamount to breakfast, before the main meal in the 50s and early 60s. The man was consistent if nothing else (and certainly ‘controversial’ as John Chan put it so delicately, he can be delicate when he wants to!)
If your entire post consists of insults and demands for proof (which I obligingly provide), without providing any proof yourself all that we can conclude is that you are simply an angry human venting on a respectable web site because you can. But you will certainly be challenged if you are not accurate in your portrayal of history and attempt to cover up the facts especially in this day and age. And simply foaming at the mouth does not do much for your credibility either, especially if I do not engage in tit for tat behavior. You just come off a sore, foul mouthed, loser. We can only extrapolate from that to a greater Chinese mindset on the world stage, based on behavior, not conjecture. Like I said, I did not start this discussion, John did with the incredible portrayal of the US Civil War as an internal atrocity like.. you know the rest, loose words and he got called on it.
Sam
“Why can’t you (the rep of Westpac) admit the atrocity you have been conducting around the world? Particular why didn’t the British show remorse for the tens of thousands of Tibetans they had killed and raped, as well the monasteries they burnt and sucked?”
John, my boy you really need to get a grip on your English or talk to a superior before you publish anything. You do not suck a monastery you sack a monastery. It is s big building to suck and even though the Chinese can suck with the best of them even you cannot suck a monastery. But it serves to keep people laughing when they read your angry rants and konw ho=w you hard you are trying to sound serious and be noticed.
You keep asking for remorse from others like a penitent preacher (I know this phrase will show up in your next post, because you have to learn English somehow and the best way is to copy the entire phrase because you do not know what it means but it sounds good!). The problem is the Americans, the British may have done a lot of things, they just did not do the things you keep accusing them of. Importantly your guilty conscience lights up the scene, because these are the kinds of things China did to the Tibetans, not the British and your statement highlights what people may have forgotten. This is because you want to rush to be the first accuser, hoping somehow people will not notice this sleight of hand. Unfortunately this only focuses attention on what the Chinese did as everybody knows the Brits did not do it, they were never in Tibet in large numbers to do that kind of thing. Also you start your sentence with ‘around the world’ and wind up accusing the Brits of ’sucking monasteries in Tibet’. So what is it – ‘around the world’ or ‘around the corner in Tibet’? In these kinds of things you have to be clear and provide your sources like you want from everyone else or people will think you are an empty windbag, full of hot air and malice. (There you go, another cut and paste for a future post a la Johnny Chai).
ozivan
@Sam. It appears that you have put some effort researching on the statistics of American casualties of war, compared to those caused by Mao Tse Tung.
As you stated : American dead in all wars from the beginning to today (1775 to present): 1,343,812 including combat and other deaths
Care to let us know the war casualties caused by Americans against others since 1775 to present ?
Even rough estimates will do.
Let’s work out the numbers first. I will debate on the causes..whether right or wrong…when we have agreed on the numbers.
Regards.
Sam
Good point Ozivan. I will return with numbers. The numbers of dead are approx in the range of 80-140,000 for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, several hundred thousand in Vietnam and Iraq and less in Afghanistan from US fighting, the Russians did their bit. The World Wars numbered in the low millions not tens of millions, but they were wars not genocides. The numbers are available at the sources I cited above.
The problem is the powerful are forcing the powerless to fight on their behalf, whether they are child soldiers in the Congo or the villagers in Afghanistan. These kids are losing their future as they are being denied education which alone helps them grow but also makes them question the status quo, which in turn can be dangerous to the health of those leaders. But the world’s media apparatus is run by a few people and forms its own power elite, no help there either. So bigness is fighting the small, and the individual, and is fighting to stay relevant as well. So we are losing our freedoms, maybe we never had them in the first place.
Sam
Here are some numbers ozivan. Actually lots of numbers.
http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Mao
You can debate it to your heart’s content.
Sam
Here are more numbers for the Vietnam War:
The Vietnam Red Cross reported as many as 3 million Vietnamese people have been affected by Agent Orange, including at least 150,000 children born with birth defects.[35] According to Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 4.8 million Vietnamese people were exposed to Agent Orange, resulting in 400,000 people being killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects
Vietnamese civilian dead: ~200,000 – 2,000,000[16]
Cambodian civilian dead: 200,000 – 300,000*[17][18][19]
Laotian civilian dead: ~20,000 – 200,000*
Total civilian dead: ~420,000 – 2,500,000
Total dead: ~1,912,846 – 3,992,846
About 100,000 civilians were killed as they fled before the final victorious NVA military offensive of 1975.[19] Some 156,000 ARVN troops and Souther 15,000 civilians were killed during Hanoi’s invasion of South Vietnam.[20] Sources have estimated that 170,000 South Vietnamese died in the re-education camps,[21] while the number executed could have been more than 200,000.[22] The maximum number killed through slave labor, according to Rummel, is 150,000. Owing to the extreme uncertainty surrounding boat people estimates, but including Vietnam’s foreign democide, Rummel estimates that a minimum of 400,000 and a maximum of slightly less than 2.5 million people died of political violence from 1975-87 at the hands of Hanoi.[23] Many of Rummel’s estimates are far higher than most others.
The estimated total number of civilians and suspected communists killed by the South Vietnamese forces from 1955 to 1975 was 145,500.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#Chemical_defoliation
ozivan
@Sam. Thank you. Much appreciated. I supposed the Vietnamese casualties include those napalm bombed ?
The numbers for Iraq must be as bad. Are there information on Iraq as detail as the Vietnam war ? WW2 against Japan ? The Koreas ? The American-Philippines war, Invasion of Cuba and the Bay of Pigs, casualties caused by support for Arab dictators by training and supplying their army which were then directed at he citizens of those countries, Israel’s war record ?
What about Stalin’s record on war casualties ?
Sam
@ozivan I see you have joined the ‘overwhelm with questions’ brigade. All the numbers are in that website. Saying ‘napalm bombed’ as though it is a new category is just silly. It includes agent orange, dioxin (same thing), bird droppings, leaflets, coconuts, you name it. Like I said earlier all the numbers including sources of multiple inputs are at the site. Obviously new information is coming in when the killing is more recent. It is not like you to write without reading the material, but you are otherwise busy is the best way I can put it.
As the wars have progressed in time, and weaponry is more able to pinpoint targets, fewer civilians have died, not that any civilian death is admissible, but that is the reality. The civilian and militant are becoming increasingly blurred as well as they shed their uniforms or never had one to begin with. In the old days, if you did not wear a uniform and worked for the ‘enemy’ you were treated as a spy and the Geneva Convention did not apply to you. Try applying those rules today. This is because armies are fighting the already defeated who have shown a surprising resilience, a kind of military jiu jitsu using the other side’s weapons in IEDs and the like to defeat them in a war of attrition, knowing fully well they are going to continue to live there long after the other side has packed up and left. Today, people no longer are cowed down by force, they simply bide their time and come back with renewed vigor and are willing to accept what were once unacceptable losses, to kill or maim even one of the enemy. So war is a losing game unless you are willing to occupy someone else’s land forever, erase their ethnic identity and culture and assimilate them like the Borg (or the Chinese in Tibet). But people never forget, it is just a matter of time before world opinion turns against you if you are not a good global citizen. There are still 6 billion on the planet and going to 9 billion, so a billion people though sizable, is still a minority in that sense.
Sam
As far as Bay of Pigs here are the facts:
The CIA trained a bunch of Cuban exiles to try to overthrow Castro with predictable casualties. US armed forces were not involved. The Cuban exiles wanted it and the US provided then with help, likewise Castros forces got help from the Soviets. Here are the numbers
176 killed[B]c. 4,000 wounded[C] Cuban side
118 killed[D] 1,202 captured[E] Cuban exile side
How this is relevant to the American effort I am not sure. It certainly sounds dramatic and Castro was no friend, but the main issue was the Soviet Union trying to base missiles in Cuba to use against the US contrary to agreements in place at the time, after denying it and then getting caught. What should the US have done, stand around pretending this was not happening?
Philippine–American War
~12,000–20,000 killed[1][5] Philippine side
4,165 killed (about 75% from disease),[6] ~3,000 wounded; US Side
2,000 Philippine Constabulary killed or wounded[7]
Filipino civilian dead: ~200,000 to 1,500,000[5][8][9}
Opposition to the war inspired Mark Twain to found the Anti-Imperialist League on June 15, 1898. The war and occupation by the United States would change the cultural landscape of the islands, as the people dealt with an estimated 34,000–1,000,000 casualties, disestablishment of the Catholic Church as the state religion, and the introduction of the English language as the primary language of government and some businesses. In 1916, the United States granted the Philippines autonomy and promised eventual self-government, which came in 1934. In 1946, following World War II, the United States recognized Philippine Independence through the Treaty of Manila.
Notice this was a war. Both sides were arms and fought. It was not one sided and lasted for a long time because the sides were killing each other and eventually the Philippines gained independence.
TLAM Strike
I miss the old days when the US Military would “Neither confirm nor deny” about its strategic delivery platforms.
Yes we would lie about our strength to a potential aggressor! That’s strategy 101!!
BTW Russia has the largest fleet of long range bombers in the world not the US:
Air Force:
Tu-22M3: 93
Tu-95MS: 64
Tu-160: 16
Total: 173
Naval Aviation
Tu-22M3: 50 (some sources say 88)
To the editors of “The Diplomat” please do the minimum of research on defense matters.
Bobby
That’s amazing. Thanks for the information. I have always thought the Tu-22M3 are not only MEDIUM range bombers (at least their earlier versions were), but also underpowered to carry out the loads as advertised. They are also pretty dated, although due to low usage, their service hours are actually lesser than the B-1B.
Sam
@John Chan
“Why can’t the USA admit that the Civil War was a massive butchering contest like the Culture (sic) Revolution, and it was not about freeing the Black?”
That’s easy. The Civil War was not a massive butchering contest and the numbers show it and it was all about freeing slaves.
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000
US Civil War:
Total Dead 1861–1865 212,938 Total
Can you read numbers John and understand the difference between 78 million and 213,000? Can you understand the difference between a Civil War where both sides had guns and artillery and, the butchering of the Tibetan people and the forced march of millions of Chinese, where one side had all the guns and artillery and the other side had prayer beads and silent protest as their weapons and had to eat dirt for food? And after 78 million people have been killed, you are willing to admit wrong? You think there was also right in that action? You are one cold s** of a b***h. I will tell you that. And you find the two scenarios equivalent and want the USA to lie and and accept the Civil War was a “butchering contest” to satisfy your less than tiny ego? You call this controversial?? A controversy is something like you and me disagreeing about what brand of soup is better.
The USA never needs to admit that it was not about “freeing the Black” because the Civil War was completely about freeing African American slaves. The Cultural Revolution was all about fooling the people into thinking they are in for a great future and they got Communism instead which was anything but. Of course you will call it merely controversial, you have to maintain your sanity after all and seeing its true picture can drive anyone mad.
Less than fifty years after Dr King’s speech, the American President is African American, the majority of athletes in some sports with high salaries are black, the richest American brand is Oprah Winfrey who is worth $2.7 Billion and the least wealthy in the list of wealthy African Americans according to Forbes is worth about $125Mn. Yes we debate why the richest black Americans are not doing more to help poorer black people and that is part of the democracy here.
So come back when you have an Uighur or Tibetan President of China and do have a debate on why Uighurs and Tibetans who are wealthy are not doing more to help their fellow Tibetans and Uighurs. Of course you know that Dorje Tashi is imprisoned for life and Rebiya Kadeer is in Virginia, USA, deported by the Chinese government. Why? They were rich in local terms, not in world terms!! So you tend to deport or imprison any rich person who is not Han in China so that debate may take a while to happen.
It is curious that you use the term ‘affirmative action’, which was created to help uplift the poor, black or otherwise, there is no distinction here, in the USA. It is so widespread that even you have heard of it and are mindlessly repeating it without understanding its origins!
Incidentally the Chinese have kept their currency at depressed levels so they can continue to export their products and enjoy a trade surplus vis a vis the world and caused unemployment to rocket up everywhere else. This means the US Government has to support more people, blacks included, so the the best way for you to help the USA help its blacks is to let the currency appreciate to its natural level so more people can work here and help support the safety net to help the poor and unemployed. So you should go talk to your government right now, instead of bleating in this forum and wasting everybody’s time with your blather. of course as more people are unemployed outside China, it will have fewer and fewer customers to afford its products and then face a backlash as people make the connection between their unemployment and China’s successful export based mercantilism. But that is your problem.
Cyrus
Sam you would be wasting your time with John Chan. He never admits to anything and just keeps on blabbing about his figures which you never know where it comes from. When we discussed about the Korean Wars he just came up with numbers unheard of (just to mask the shame of Chinese Casualties in regards against the Filipino Casualties in Korean War).
John your debate about the Civil War is no longer of importance. Blacks were freed after the Civil War, countless lives were spent and that is for their beliefs. THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR BELIEFS, I could not say the same as what Mao Zedong did to the Chinese. You would have done a better job using the Filipino-American War for one then you might have some cases of maltreatment. Though that is also not applicable since Human Rights was never codified by then and wars are generally just bloody and brutal at that time.
Sam
Cyrus I write this for the readers of this site so they do not get fooled. And yes I write so John of the Teflon skin will at some point deep down feel ashamed about what he writes and I hope by repeating the facts enough he will get to that point not now, or in the near future, but over time and when everybody here has had a chance to look at the enormity of his lies. And I am heartened by the progress we have made even in these few exchanges so there is hope for all of us.
ozivan
@Sam. John Chan is doing exactly what you’re trying to do.
In similarities of objectives, like you, he is contesting against those who tried to fool readers about China. The English reading public were dominated by Western authors and journalists for decades, who have portrayed China unfairly.
As you said : …the enormity of lies.
John Chan is equally disturbed by the enormity of lies that ill-informed or misinformed readers have hurled at China.
China of the last 30 years is different now.
No nation is perfect in all its policies, but China is condemned unfairly, disproportionate to her actions, eg. the SCS issues where there are differences of opinions and interpretation of territory, but no serious major wars have occurred, as compared to US who would just do an invasion of Iraq or Vietnam of great magnitudes…without deep contemplation.
Thanks to brilliant West’s soft war, using the mass medias everytime to go on a psychological warfare to make their adventures look good.
China is handicapped by this soft war machine. Indeed, China should seriously consider building armies of english authors, writers and journalists in the future. Even explore buying over some of Rupert Murdoch’s troubled western news media, followed by employing China friendly reporters & journalists.
Look at the skillful hand. The West’s economic troubles are so magnificiently portrayed as caused by China’s exports and currencies.
When it was the way around, like the Asian financial crisis in 1997, the West retorted that it was ineptness, corruption, mismanagement and inefficiencies by Asians. When the West exported the most,and her currencies the strongest, the West trumped them as the superiority of laissez-faire economics, western model, values and culure. What irony ?
Meanwhile, John Chan is playing the role of the “Defender of the Chinese nation against, past and present, foreign misinformation and disinformation campaigns against China ”
To some extent, I Ozivan have played the same role as John Chan. The difference is in our style.
ozivan
Please add in paragraph 10, it should read : When it was the other way around,
Sam
ozivan: Taking another peoples’ resources without compensation was not thirty years ago. It is happening today. That is simply wrong. Tibet is a third of China’s land mass and the Tibetan’s are less than 1% of the population today. That is so sad. China was not always thus.
The old economic model was Malthusian. The basic premise was: We have too many people living on the planet and with our current resources we cannot fed them all (and clothe and shelter them all). So let’s go get what we need and let the rest of them ‘go hang’ as Zimbabwe’s Mugabe used to say. this was the basis for mercantilism which small, cold weather countries (with poor sewage treatment plants and bad air quality due to coal based heating) like Britain (Japan and most of small country Europe) did. Then along came the ‘modern’ era and the world suddenly realized that we have a 1000x population and we are not having 1000x the resource needs but far less per capita and while we are not at the end of our problems, technology is allowing us to do more with less and even improve our condition. This is what I call the ’small cold mentality’. It is characterized by being excessively concerned about a money culture and possessions and who owns what and viewing the world in terms of resources and how to get one’s hands on it legally or otherwise.
The warm parts of the world do not have this need, the guy in Tonga or Greece goes to the ocean to fish, spends the morning getting a catch and cooks and eats it with his family the same day and repeats this the every day. The sun is shining and there is no winter to speak of where he will die if he is not indoors in front of a fire. So he/she does not feel particularly like saving or, ’striking while the iron is hot’ or ‘making hay while the sun shines’ (especially if the grass grows 24/7/365) and all that nonsense. He simply lives his life day to day.
Unfortunately the ’small cold mentality’ people used the Chinese invention of gunpowder used in firecrackers there to create cannons and committed serious armed robbery on the people in large warm countries around the equator where stuff simply grew out of the ground or swam in the ocean, because their insecure situation meant they always needed more. Their religion played no small part in this, it was voracious as well. Talk about group think! The smarter thing to do would have been to move to the equatorial area (there is always plenty of space there for some odd reason) or focus their attention on creating technology appropriate to their situation and be self contained, but it was just easier to kill others and get their stuff.
So now it has become acceptable to kill others and take their stuff as a nation but not as an individual, which is kind of odd. So the reaction to these armed robberies was to fight back or simply multiply hoping for a better tomorrow resulting in these huge population countries, or escape the mess, resulting in the US, LatAm, Australia and so on.
So when some of the erstwhile victims resort to the same tactics as the small cold people we know we have come full circle and we have learnt nothing from the original lesson which was to focus as a world on technology to overcome our shortages instead of beating on the next guy and pointing fingers and throw stones at everyone else when they protest. Or else we are not humans, as the law of the jungle (which can be surprisingly civilized, I may have misspoken here) prevails, we have learned nothing and might is right. You should not complain if people beat on you then and make funny faces at you as you pass by.
Sam
@ozivan:
You do not need armies of Chinese writing in English. They would be suspect right way. Take the stuff written in Chinese and put it up on a website in Chinese with attribution so people know who the authors are. Quote it and provide translation of the parts you think are relevant. Then tons of people worldwide who are, or are not Chinese but understand it, can read the original in Chinese, the translation and critique or even help in the the translation openly. This is the same situation when China files a patent, it is done in Chinese and translated openly for the patent office, so other people cannot copy it and and must pay the owner of the patent a royalty if they use the process or product. There are also a few million Chinese living in the ‘hated’ West and they can help too.
ozivan
@Sam. A patent is different from news reporting or journalism.
Patent is a science. Whatever designs are created, inventions or discoveries that are patented can always be translated exactly ( where there is little room for misinterpretation or misreading, if any ) from any language to English. Once discovered, the facts/data remain static,
But not for news reporting or journalism. There is always that human element, touch and discernment. It is dynamic and like a moving target. A journalist must be able to quickly catch the focus, gist, scoop, hook, or rationale of a news item, arguments, statements, etc. and addressed them ingeniously, creatively, accurately, even slant, twist or cajole, etc …depending on the writer’s motivation.
Direct translation of news items as you suggest can go awry. For example in the Diplomat.
In article : India’s New Strike Corps by Trefor Moss, he wrote this line :
“…with the establishment of a large new army corps whose express purpose is to invade and assume control of areas of Chinese territory, they have surely now got Beijing’s attention.”
Compare the above, with what Rajeev Sharma wrote in “India-China Navies Face-Off ”
” India has announced plans for the formation of a new strike corps aimed specifically at being able to hit targets inside China in the event of conflict breaking out.”
You know the facts are the same generally, but the purpose is skewed by the individual bias of the authors through the power of the pen.
In my view, an army of skillful english writing China friendly journalists (better still skillfully bi-lingual) is still a viable, useful option. They should be posted to every corner of the world to report news from the Asian perspective. They can be recruited by China from overseas Chinese and even non-Chinese, either experienced ones or place on training. And it also needs control of a few large western newspapers and mass media vehicles to push it.
There are millions of Chinese diaspora though, but few have the passion to do it without rewards. So either State intervention or a Chinese philanthropist or a Chinese businessman could pave the way.
You do not need armies of Chinese writing in English. They would be suspect right way. Take the stuff written in Chinese and put it up on a website in Chinese with attribution so people know who the authors are. Quote it and provide translation of the parts you think are relevant. Then tons of people worldwide who are, or are not Chinese but understand it, can read the original in Chinese, the translation and critique or even help in the the translation openly. This is the same situation when China files a patent, it is done in Chinese and translated openly for the patent office, so other people cannot copy it and and must pay the owner of the patent a royalty if they use the process or product. There are also a few million Chinese living in the ‘hated’ West and they can help too.
ozivan
To bloggers. Please delete the last paragraph of my comment to Sam at 4.49am, as it was Sam’s comment that I accidentally copied and paste.
A re-post is here.
@Sam. A patent is different from news reporting or journalism.
Patent is a science. Whatever designs are created, inventions or discoveries that are patented can always be translated exactly ( where there is little room for misinterpretation or misreading, if any ) from any language to English. Once discovered, the facts/data remain static,
But not for news reporting or journalism. There is always that human element, touch and discernment. It is dynamic and like a moving target. A journalist must be able to quickly catch the focus, gist, scoop, hook, or rationale of a news item, arguments, statements, etc. and addressed them ingeniously, creatively, accurately, even slant, twist or cajole, etc …depending on the writer’s motivation.
Direct translation of news items as you suggest can go awry. For example in the Diplomat.
In article : India’s New Strike Corps by Trefor Moss, he wrote this line :
“…with the establishment of a large new army corps whose express purpose is to invade and assume control of areas of Chinese territory, they have surely now got Beijing’s attention.”
Compare the above, with what Rajeev Sharma wrote in “India-China Navies Face-Off ”
” India has announced plans for the formation of a new strike corps aimed specifically at being able to hit targets inside China in the event of conflict breaking out.”
You know the facts are the same generally, but the purpose is skewed by the individual bias of the authors through the power of the pen.
In my view, an army of skillful english writing China friendly journalists (better still skillfully bi-lingual) is still a viable, useful option. They should be posted to every corner of the world to report news from the Asian perspective. They can be recruited by China from overseas Chinese and even non-Chinese, either experienced ones or place on training. And it also needs control of a few large western newspapers and mass media vehicles to push it.
There are millions of Chinese diaspora though, but few have the passion to do it without rewards. So either State intervention or a Chinese philanthropist or a Chinese businessman could pave the way.
ozivan
To Editor/Diplomat. I have duplicated my comment to Sam at 4.49am and the other at 4.59am.
Please delete my comment at 4.49am as I have accidentally copied and paste Sam’s comment in the last paragraph.
Thank you.
ozivan
@Sam. Hey..I just read this. Here’s another example taken from Yahoo News (UK & Ireland) today on Appeals to Turkey And Israel To Make Up, with this opening sentence.
” Top diplomats piled pressure on Turkey and Israel to make up Saturday after Ankara’s decision to expel the Jewish state’s ambassador in retaliation for last year’s deadly Gaza flotilla raid ”
Another writer could write differently, as…
” Top diplomats are working to find ways for Turkey & Israel to make up….”
It’s often an ART to translate correctly, usage and play with words, or relay the meaning between languages.
John Chan
@Cyrus:
USA civil war is relevant to this argument; both USA Civil War and Culture Revolution are internal atrocity.
The West does not have the divine right to interpret historical events; other human beings on this earth have right to interpret historical events too. Anybody insist he has the divine right to interpret history; he is nothing but a totalitarian.
@Sam:
You are offensive, you do not argue, you only slander other bloggers with foul language. In Chinese eyes, you are the shameless history fabricator and manipulator. You are spreading toxic hatred with enormity of your lies. You intimidate other bloggers whose opinions are not to you liking, you practise totalitarian harassment.
For the peace and prosperity of the world, your kind must be overcome.
Sinodefender
Comparing Civil War deaths with Cultural revolution deaths is unfair,the population of 1960s is far more then during the Civil War… Prove to me all who faced Mao had no weapons and were peaceful civilians… Cultural revolution was detestable,my own relatives got stripped of wealth simply because they were learned but that is the past why do you bring up this subjects? Proof that rich Tibetans and Uighurs are deported,not like Uighurs and Tibetans can’t reach government positions… CCP gives more rights to compared to pre CCP Tibet,it was a feudalistic society with monks and wealthy families on the top and serfs and slaves at the bottom,you should read what rights minorities get in China… Why shouldn’t China keep its currency artificially low,that way it supports China’s own people why should China care about the U.S. if all the U.S. does is be a hypocrite and complain about human rights?
Sam
Please reread what I wrote and the origins of the discussion first. I did not equate the Civil War with the Culture (sic) Revolution. John Chan did and wants to rewrite history in the process. And he is asking for the US to apologize for it!
The currency situation is not about the US only. It is about the rest of the world. And the rest of the world will react by slapping tariffs on Chinese imports which is easily done. If you go crying to the WTO it will remind you of what your currency regime is at that time, which is another way of ‘dumping’. You can fool all the people for some of the time but not everybody always, paraphrasing Lincoln. This will end badly for China at some point and when the wealth stops pouring in, the locals will figure they have been promised more than can be delivered in which case watch out!
As far as Tibet and its inequality that is an internal Tibetan matter is it not? So the Tibetans exchanged serfdom under Tibetans for serfdom under the Chinese? That is your solution? Nobody said Tibetans should not emigrate across the border to India if they felt they were downtrodden by their upper class. Why did they not? Because the neighborhood was poor and the next guy was just as unlucky. But in the future, as the wealth and education levels increased, they could hope to share in it. If China wanted to help its poor neighbor, the right thing to do is to negotiate to create training and industry locally so the Tibetans can benefit from the resources in their own country and create export markets for their (finished) goods and services and the Chinese come in to educate and advise, not kill and pillage for their own benefit. So how many universities and centers of higher learning have you set up in Tibet where the locals can learn in their own language and follow their own culture or set them up to learn abroad later, maybe Harvard or LSE. These schools are clogged with Han Chinese, right? So you must think it is beneficial. Why is it not beneficial for the Tibetans and Uighurs do have the same opportunity?
Let alone Tibet, China goes to Africa and employs its own people there to suck up the resources for its use and sells the finished goods to a small group of people who can afford them there, leaving out the local poor. How can you justify that and pretend you are the good guys? Every society, feudalistic or not has inequality. The solution is to raise the standard of living from the bottom up so everyone has a virtuous cycle and can afford to educate the next generation of local people. China is doing none of that in the ‘autonomous regions’ or elsewhere in the world where they operate. When the locals find out that their resources which are finite, are not going to help them in their progress, that there is no hope for the future, they protest and China kills them, and calls it an internal matter. Nobody will get upset if they see a bright future in the Chinese system. I do not feel obligated to prove anything to you, just read the papers in these countries. Ah, but you banned those as well, which speaks volumes. You want Uighurs and Tibetans to take (I mean compete for) government jobs in China? Really? So you can continue the farce? Like I said elect one in a decision making capacity, not as a figure head and we will talk about it then.
And exactly who elected the CCP to give rights or anything else to someone else? That is the essence of colonialism and I thought we were past that stage a couple of hundred years ago. You have obviously not gotten that far.
John Chan
@Sam:
You are regurgitating everything I read on the internet made up by the racist neo-con bigots about China with insidious intent. You are bringing those toxic inflammatory troll into this site. I merely asked you some questions, yet you went berserk like overdosed thug. Instead of question the wrongdoing the westerners had committed, you make up false accusations against China to white wash the sins of the westerners.
When you are challenged about you lies, your response is you are answerable to anybody. What a hubris you have.
CCP is made up by Chinese who are elected thru a Chinese election system. Who the hell do you think you are? Are you still living the era of unequal treaties, every Chinese business is Whiteman’s business. Sam you are born too late.
Sam, people like you with intolerant nature, and racist bigotry mindset are the danger to the peace and prosperity of mankind.
Sam
“Sam, people like you with intolerant nature, and racist bigotry mindset are the danger to the peace and prosperity of mankind.”
I think you meant to say Han kind John, not mankind since you clearly are greedy and sub human to do what you do with a straight face.
Sinodefender
Wonder what the rest of the world will do if China doesn’t give them rare earths… Stop instigating that somehow no one loves the CCP and they will rebel right when wealth stops coming doesn’t that apply to every government? How are Tibetans and other minorities remotely close to even being serfs or slaves? Clogged with Han Chinese now you are just being ridiculous CCP is not dumb enough to ignore the needs of Tibetans prove to me Tibetans aren’t able to go to schools… Even though China employs its own people does it construct some slave trade like the West,China does build infrastructure for the region… And how do you suppose China can raise the standards for everyone single soul living in China,this is impossible and why do you blame China if there is autonomy?Extremists protest I don’t all Tibetans immolating themselves or all Uighurs crying Jihad protest does not equal kill random Han Chinese which the best tries to ignore… Everyone has to earn their way to a government position Uighurs and Tibetans are not excluded… China bans many things including pornography and worthless movies and music which glorifies youth and violence why doesn’t anyone compliment on that seems like China bashers only concentrate on how China bans certain things… Tibet and Xinjiang are parts of China not colonies like you suggest…
a_canadian_observer
@sinodefender: Very simple solution. Move all the “Han” that china shipped in those teritories out, and let the Tibetans/Uyghurs decide for themselves.
Sam
@sinodefender.
“Wonder what the rest of the world will do if China doesn’t give them rare earths?”
Easy. It will find another source, (the US was supplying these before China got in the act and the mines still exist), recycle existing supply (the magnets do not die if the computer dies) and later find another technology not using rare earths. In economics this is called short term vs long term supply problem.
“Stop instigating (sic – insinuating is a better choice) that somehow no one loves the CCP and they will rebel right when wealth stops coming doesn’t that apply to every government?” It does, so they get defeated in the next election unlike China which has been promising bright futures for a long time. If they get upset in China they get sent to reeducation school which we all know what that means, and the government does not change one iota for the next 50+ years.
“How are Tibetans and other minorities remotely close to even being serfs or slaves?Clogged with Han Chinese now you are just being ridiculous CCP is not dumb enough to ignore the needs of Tibetans prove to me Tibetans aren’t able to go to schools.”
If the Tibetans and Uighurs think they have a bright future and are not remotely “serfs or slaves” (your usage not mine) and all they need ‘is to go to “schools”‘ why should they go to government jobs as a first choice? Is that all that the Han Chinese aspire to? going to schools?
Here is a statistic to chew on
In first place, the US has 3.1 millionaire households in 2010 and this will go down in 2011 as the economy cools. Of these 109,000 households are African American, the same downtrodden ones M L King spoke of as John Chan eloquently copied and pasted elsewhere to show discrimination in America, which you clearly back.
In second place, China had 535,000 millionaire households in 2010 a number that is likely to increase.
Question:
Do you have, even in total, Tibetans and Uighurs together, the same proportion of millionaires? That would be about 92 millionaires or 46 each. Do you have 1 Tibetan and 1 Uighur millionaire? Remember China’s wealthiest 10 companies are exclusively in three sectors, – energy, banking and insurance. You mean to tell me that Tibet with a third of China’s land area and Xinjiang with a sixth, thus making up half of China’s land mass and being the most resource rich ‘part’ of China could not, together, produce a single millionaire in all these years? You could not take a local guy or girl send him/her to Harvard or Yale or Beijing University through a government program, I know you are big on government over there, and train him/her to make a million dollars in all these years while you were sucking the resources from them? Really, you could not find one bright person in the lot.
What do you think would have happened if you had left them alone, like Kazakhstan or Tajikistan or any number of similar countries that the Soviets left alone, your fellow communist state? It is called greed, my friend and it never looks good when you shine some sunlight on it. You sent them to Chinese language school? You are telling me this with a straight face? Really? How many Han Chinese with that level of education are inthe group of 535,000 millionaires? Ya right. About the same number as Tibetan and Uighur millionaires. I thought so too.
John Chan
_@Sam:
Where did you get your numbers? Thru the thin air? 78 million was more than 10% of the population of that time, that number would mean dead in every family. It would be bodies all over the street. Where is your proof? You are not only delusional, you are deadly insane.
You are using foul language because someone exposes your insanity? You are sick.
African Americans filled the prisons in the USA, and average African Americans income dropped in the last 20 years. Nothing in Martin’s speech has changed. Sam you are not only redneck bigot, and you have no compassion for your fellow citizen at all.
Sam
John: In all your rantings there is not single source mentioned Chinese or Western so far to support your numbers. Come to think of it you have not presented any numbers at all. Here are some facts to balance the drivel you write.
1. Since the US is full of downtrodden Black people like China is full of downtrodden Tibetans and Uighurs let me ask you this question after supplying some facts.
The US has 3.1 million millionaires in 2010, probably fewer now. Of these 109,000 households are black.
China has 535,000 millionaires in 2010, and probably more now. How many are Tibetan or Uighur millionaires are in that list?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millionaire#Number_of_millionaires_by_country
I can see you are getting red faced. It’s OK
2. Here is how China treats scholars who are from universities where the best Chinese students go (of the 40,000 who go annually to the US to study, I wonder how many are Tibetans or Uighurs) MIT, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Dartmouth, the list goes on.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-11/china-banning-u-s-professors-elicits-silence-from-colleges.html
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/09/01/can-us-colleges-defend-academic-freedom?ref=world
Why does it do that?
3.This is the story of a dog. It is worth more than most of its countrymen. http://www.luxist.com/2011/03/16/red-tibetan-mastiff-world-most-expensive-dog-1-5-million/
You guys really know how to treat your countrymen!! If the Tibetans are lazy and do not deserve to be paid a fair wage, why is their dog worth so much? Surely it must be just as lazy. What kind of work does it do I wonder to be worth so much?
Reminds me of Chou-en-Lai’s Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai statement in 1962!
4. If you find the West so anti Chinese why do you sell them so much stuff when your own people do not have enough?
5.And why do Chinese companies want to list on those crooked, corrupt stock exchanges when you have Shanghai and Shenzhen right at home?
Sam
Correction:(535,000/3,100,000)*109,000 = 18,811 millionaires from the two autonomous regions not 92 as I had stated. I stand corrected but the answers are not going to budge from what I had before in terms of actual numbers of Tibetan and Uighur millionaires, unfortunately. But you are sending them to some kind of school you said, right? You also provide them with textbooks and clothes and food right? Do you separate them from their families in these schools and how far are they from Xinjiang, I wonder? Are these schools for the children only or do the adults get an education as well? What is the market capitalization of the companies that extract the natural resources from these places and how much of these resources/profits (percentage will do) are repatriated to the communities affected?
ozivan
David Axe just talked about 1 (One)…ONE only…B2 being out of action, and yet so many of us bloggers (me included) are at loggerheads on issues not even related to his article.
This is the soft power that China didn’t have since WW2, that she must think of acquiring now.
China must seriously train an army of English speaking and writing journalists to write articles, op-eds, books, editorials, etc to present China’s perspective. With some of Rupert Murdoch’s news media in trouble, maybe China should control a number of them and employ China friendly Western, Middle-Eastern, Latin and Asian journalists.
Hello, hello…CCP bloggers if you’re one, please send this suggestion to your Minister for Information & Communications.
Sam
It seems USA unable to solve problems on its own, USA always asks China to do things for the USA to solve problems. Sam, I have better idea to solve USA’s problems for good, then USA does not need to keep on bitching China. Why doesn’t USA ask China to run USA as a trust for 100 years, after Chinese has fixed all the problems then returns USA to the Americans.
No problem. Let us see what China has done in Tibet where they ‘invited’ themselves in only nine years let alone 100 in the USA.
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclopedia/tibet
http://www.davekopel.com/env/entibet.htm
“As in other parts of the world, the dictatorship’s crimes against nature are paralleled by crimes against humanity. Alexsander Solzhenitsyn calls the Chinese rule in Tibet “more brutal and inhumane than any other communist regime in the world.”
One-sixth of the Tibetan population has been exterminated in prison camps or by starvation. Six thousand Buddhist monasteries, temples, and other cultural structures have been destroyed.
Chinese soldiers garrison every major town in Tibet to prevent rebellion. Elite soldiers watch the regular troops, to keep them from revolting.”
John Chan, the USA does not need China’s help like this.
The world can solve the China problem by simply levying a duty on imports form there and defaulting on only the bonds issued to China until it leaves Tibet and Xinjiang. Tibet alone is 900,000 sq miles and a third of China’s land area. Shame on you, you mad monster!!
Sam
@sinodeaf
‘Clogged with Han Chinese now you are just being ridiculous CCP is not dumb enough to ignore the needs of Tibetans prove to me Tibetans aren’t able to go to schools’
No I did not mean that the Tibetan and Uighur schools were clogged with Han Chinese although that is certainly possible, but the level of education there probably means it is the kiss of death to a future in China for a Han Chinese from those schools without serious remedial tutoring throughout. I meant that US , European and Antipodean schools were clogged with Han Chinese and no Tibetans or Uighurs show up there.
Here is my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_students
and an excerpt:
“The US, UK and Australia are countries that have the highest number of international students. In terms of straight numbers, the US is the undisputed front-runner with approximately 671,616 foreign enrollment in 2008-9,[8] followed by the UK and Australia, respectively with 330,000 and 280, 000 registered overseas students.[1]
International students from China in significantly increasing numbers are coming to universities in the US. In 2009, there were nearly 100,000 Chinese students in US universities.[8]
The number of US Visas issued to Chinese students to study at US universities has increased by 30 per cent over last year, from more than 98,000 in 2009 to nearly 128,000 in October 2010, placing China as the top country of origin for international students, according to the “2010 Open Doors Report” published on the US Embassy in China website. The number of Chinese students increased, Overall, the total number of international students with a US Visa to study at colleges and universities increased by 3 per cent to a record high of nearly 691,000 in the 2009/2010 academic year. The 30 per cent increase in Chinese student enrolment was the main contributor to this year’s growth, and now Chinese students account for more than 18 percent of the total international students.[9]
U.S. colleges and universities have long welcomed students from China, where the higher-education system cannot meet the demand. Three years ago, a record 10 million students throughout China took the national college entrance test, competing for 5.7 million university slots. Because foreign undergraduates typically fail to qualify for U.S. federal aid, colleges here can provide limited financial help. Now, thanks to China’s booming economy in recent years, more Chinese families can afford to pay. U.S. colleges also face challenges abroad. Worries about fraud on test scores and transcripts make occasional headlines. And even Chinese students who test high on an English-language proficiency test may not be able to speak or write well enough to stay up to speed in a U.S. classroom, where essay writing and discussions are common.[10]“
Sam
@ozivan
You have again confused content with process. What I said was that we can access sources that someone quotes even if they are in Chinese (or Hindi or …)and everybody does not understand the language by following a process like the Patent Office does. The original patent application in a local language is published so people who understand the language can read it directly without outside help. Then for people who do not understand it, a translation is included in a common language like English and people who know both languages can judge and report on how good the translation is and even provide a better one if they disagree with it. This again is all about process not content. Everything you write about art and science (and anything else, since you range quite freely, especially when you think you have found a chink to sneak through like your latest posts;)), still applies. But then again the problem is that some of us do not feel the need to provide sources, just demand others provide them which is somewhat one sided and far from balanced.
Sam
@ozivan I see what you mean. I was talking about sources that someone like John Chan can use to back up his ‘facts’ and if western sources are suspect come up with Chinese sources with attribution (not some faceless nameless bureaucrat). These do not change especially historical ones as they have already occurred and unless new evidence comes to light are unchanging just like scientific information in a patent application, many times they are scientific information or forensic information. Either I found say, 20,000 skulls or I did not, that’s not interpretation, that is fact and corroborated fact especially if a multi-country team is reporting it.
Sam
John Chan’s top three ‘words of wisdom’ in his best English style
‘You are not only delusional, you are deadly insane.You are using foul language because someone exposes your insanity? You are sick.’
‘You are regurgitating everything I read on the internet made up by the racist neo-con bigots about China with insidious intent. You are bringing those toxic inflammatory troll into this site. I merely asked you some questions, yet you went berserk like overdosed thug. Instead of question the wrongdoing the westerners had committed, you make up false accusations against China to white wash the sins of the westerners.When you are challenged about you lies, your response is you are answerable to anybody. What a hubris you have.CCP is made up by Chinese who are elected thru a Chinese election system. Who the hell do you think you are? Are you still living the era of unequal treaties, every Chinese business is Whiteman’s business. Sam you are born too late.Sam, people like you with intolerant nature, and racist bigotry mindset are the danger to the peace and prosperity of mankind.’
‘I believe you are financially illiterate; how can making Chinese goods, which most low income Americans rely on, more expensive help the American poor? Your logic is beyond me, only redneck like you who does not care his country fellows can say such heartless things as in your comment. Chinese hire locals as many as possible wherever they carry out projects in other nations. It is well documented by international NGOs. You are smearing China shamelessly. China raised the living standards for the minorities in China including Tibetans. Culture Revolution was a mistake. Why can’t you (the rep of Westpac) admit the atrocity you have been conducting around the world? Particular why didn’t the British show remorse for the tens of thousands of Tibetans they had killed and raped, as well the monasteries they burnt and sucked? Sam, you are lying with eyes wide open, where does you number come from, thru the thin air like the Fed printing the USD? Only the Westpac can achieve such horrendous atrocity through two world wars and other bombings and killings ever since the industrial revolution. Sam why don’t you tell us about number of people killed in the US derailing last week? Or about the number killed by radiation in the Fukushima? And how did USA and Japan cover those disasters up? Only pointing finger on a scapegoat is your way of avoiding responsibility and accountability for your disasters?’
‘It seems USA unable to solve problems on its own, USA always asks China to do things for the USA to solve problems. Sam, I have better idea to solve USA’s problems for good, then USA does not need to keep on bitching China. Why doesn’t USA ask China to run USA as a trust for 100 years, after Chinese has fixed all the problems then returns USA to the Americans.’
Because John, China has a history of never returning anything it manages to get its hands on, ever.
From Mrs Robinson with apologies to Simon and Garfunkel
Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the Chinese candidates’ debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you’ve got to choose
Ev’ry way you look at it, you lose
Where have you gone, (John Chan) DiMaggio
A nation turns it’s lonely eyes to you (Woo, woo, woo)
What’s that you say, Mrs. Robinson
Joltin’ John has left and gone away
(Hey, hey, hey…hey, hey, hey)
vivek
@sam
nice, that was real nice :@
Sam
Thanks! Every once in a while one gets carried away