China's submarine fleet is largely limited to a coastal defensive role, but still could not prevent infiltration by US undersea boats, according to a recent analysis by Owen Cote Jr. of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Security Studies Programme.
Only big shifts in doctrine and technology could alter the current equation, Cote explained.
Cote's assessment is a fresh reminder of the obstacles China faces in securing its own waters – to say nothing of extending its influence farther into the Pacific. The report is also a reminder that, despite the high visibility of aircraft carriers, jet fighters and ballistic missiles, submarines are still the most decisive weapon in the evolving rivalry between Washington and Beijing.
With their stealthiness and tremendous firepower, submarines pose a serious threat to surface vessels. For that reason, they are ideally suited to so-called sea denial – that is, keeping enemy fleets out of a given patch of ocean.
That's precisely what Beijing intends for its force of roughly 50 small diesel-electric submarines and 10 or so larger nuclear boats. ‘China plans on using its diesel attack submarines...for coastal defence,’ Cote wrote.
Likewise, the nuke boats could be used in an attempt ‘to deny or limit the access of Western navies to the larger sea space between what (Chinese officials) call the 'first and second island chains' – or, roughly speaking, the Philippine Sea.’
But the US Navy’s own submarines plus its patrol planes, helicopters, surface ships and underwater ‘listening’ arrays, concentrated in geographic choke points, could probably detect most Chinese subs attempting to reach the US fleet beyond the first island chain, Cote asserted.
At the same time, ‘China has very limited (Anti-Submarine Warfare) capabilities and appears not to be making major investments to improve them.’
So while the submarines of the People's Liberation Army Navy might be able to deny US and allied surface vessels access to the South China Sea, they can’t reliably extend that denial into the Philippine Sea. Nor could they even detect American undersea vessels anywhere. ‘US submarines can currently operate freely in Chinese coastal waters.’
This imbalance is a result of the United States’ huge investment in submarine technology during the decades of the Cold War. The US has demonstrated ‘the ability to establish and consistently maintain significant acoustic advantages for its nuclear submarines in a competition with a peer competitor.’
The United States’ 55 nuclear attack subs are so quiet ‘that their passage at close range can actually cause a dip in noise levels because background noise is being blocked by the submarine's hull.’
The superiority of US subs could severely limit the potential of China's own undersea fleet in a prolonged conflict, even degrading its coastal defence capability. Cote described US boats taking up positions outside Chinese ports, tracking and destroying PLAN subs as they left or entered.
There’s a catch. The US Navy maintains only 10 submarines on routine forward deployment all over the world during peacetime. Many more boats could ‘surge’ in the event of hostilities, but would require days or weeks to reach Chinese waters. For that reason, ‘the US can do little to stop an initial sortie by a large portion of the Chinese submarine fleet.’
The American sub fleet's advantage would increase over time as more vessels arrived.
Whether Chinese subs could exploit their moment of relative freedom is debatable. Even US submarines with their highly sophisticated sensors and combat systems rely on ‘cueing’ by land-based over-the-horizon radars, satellites or high-altitude surveillance aircraft that can steer them towards their targets.
China possesses a rudimentary cueing capability in the form of several OTH radars and a small constellation of surveillance satellites. Beijing is also developing drone spy planes. The United States could find a new role for its submarines in destroying some of these cueing assets, further handicapping an already inferior Chinese undersea fleet.
US subs are already armed with land-attack cruise missiles. For their own cueing against OTH radars on land, US boats could deploy small aerial drones – a capability already in development.
Thus equipped, US submarines would also be capable of destroying a wider range of land targets, including China's hundreds of mobile missile launchers.
‘Just as I argue that the US could seek new areas of military competition with China by giving its submarines new missions, the Chinese might seek to do the same,’ Cote explained. ‘But the situation for the Chinese is different because they would not be building on a situation of current or inherent advantage like the US would be.’








Kelvin Soong
As usual PLA weapon are inferior or mocked. US weapons being better or superior. The Chinese weapons need not have maximum efficiency of US ones. The ability to perform is what counts.Granted the Chinese weapons may be 80 % effective for the job to be done.
As for PLA modernisation,don’t blame the Chinese.If the US keeps on adding offensive weapons aimed at China,the Chinese defence chief has to take note and develop counter weapons. That’s why they are developing the carrier busting missile.As for submarines,it will come good at some time in the future.This is unless the US starts a war now to disarm the PLA.
Btw,it won’t be a 100% disarmament and in the process the US will suffer damaging results.
Shen Liang
@Kelvin Soong
Could you name the offensive weapons aimed at China which were added in recent years?
kelvyn Soong
The US has many offensive weapons such as the B1 and others which you can find on the internet. In the 50s the US nearly attacked China with atomic bombs.Fortunately the Chinese aint that irrational You don’t fight a guy who can punch you and you are defenceless.
FF 2011. The PLA need not seek parity with US forces. The ability to retaliate and inflict unacceptable damage is a strong deterrent.The problem is it becomes a problem for US forces and hence cannot be allowed.Well sooner or later the PLA” capababilty to wreak more devastation on US forces and homeland will increase . OF course the US may have have some unheard of weapons which could neutralize the PLA attack. Still I expect the PLA to devastate the US homeland if the US were to unleash its full of forces to obliterate China.
gen ome
My dear Chinese friend, the United States (in 90 minutes) could set China’s communist, totalitarian, bullying (see Tibet, Viet Nam, Phillipines and India) regime back thirty years. Not that we would ever do it, because we actually value human life, two well placed nukes at Three Gorges Dam would DESTROY China.
Bully
China’s navy has been bullying Taiwan,Philippines,& Vietnam for so many years now. Claiming hundreds of tiny islands all over the south china sea as their own. Depriving non Chinese fisher mans to fish in their own territories. With US support after so many years of bullying, I’m sure these countries will want to push back. Chinese naval ships constantly accompany Chinese civilian fisher mans to fish in areas their not supposed to be, preventing other country’s navies of exercising their sovereignty. Time to stop the bully, they don’t even recognize the international body governing countries sea territories. It is ridiculous!
Reason
I read this report too.. easily the best report I’ve read in ages.
Am surprised the author of this piece only touched on what Cote described as US sub’s ability to quickly neutralize any system put in place to launch DF-21s as ASBM. As the essential over the radar systems would be easy targets for cueing US subs. Making the ASBM system essentially a one shot deal, unless of course they had heaps and heaps of redundancy systems to patch in after. – Which would make the entire thing even more complicated than it already is.
http://www.chimericawar.org
yang zi
@Reason: I visited chimericawar.org, good writings but one dimensional analysis. arguments are built on unrealistic assumptions. of course, it is very hard to predict future. Chinese education is focused too much on its past glory and recent defeats, not enough modern ideals. this makes a society that has difficulty deal with some of the issues. To make things worse, this phenomenon is not limited to China, it applies to South Korea, Vietnam and Philippines too.
come back to this article. The attention paid to j-20 and Varyarg by Chinese public and military reflected aspects of immaturity in China’s defense development. flashy toys can be shown on TV and are more exciting than silent and invisible subs.
ozivan
Chimericawar’s articles are written by American’s far right groups. If you want a more middle way views, read articles by Michael Auslin & co-writers from Center for Defence Studies web.
yang zi
I think Reason is the man behind that website. it actually is useful to explore the darkest corners of ourselves and worst possible outcomes. Reason’s reasoning is driven by the pride of a man, not exactly a reasonable reason though
Reason
@Yangzi …. cheers for the appraisal
Go ahead and add to the debate my friend… even in the “About” it admits that it has got a US foreign policy slant.. but is not limited to that point of view.
The main premise… that China is going through a Great Leap Forward in Weapons still stands… even this week the news wires are HOT HOT HOT about a radiation leak in a Jin class sub in Dalian port… WTF????.
China is launching ship after ship.. who is going to sail these ships and subs?? Guys with PhDs? Give me a break… a PhD doesn’t make you a mariner
All of these little news-bites can credibly add up to the reasonable and grounded “assumption” that once again China is going through a “Big-Ideas-Madness” but this time, instead of it being in steel and agriculture, like in 19550/60, it is in high-tech and defense and it will all come crashing down once again and the CCP will blame anyone but themselves, as usual.
It certainly isn’t far-right American writing… they would happily let the CCP make multiple stupid mistakes like they have done with the Three Gorges Dam and High-speed rail…
The message is SLOW DOWN China… the CCP has a confirmed track record of letting things run out of control at the expense of the Chinese people…
Shen Liang
Sadly, China has a terrible history with their nuclear subs. Virtually the entire first generation of nuclear submariners was severely deformed by radiation leaks. Safety standards were non-existent. Their pictures were revealed in internal documents passed through the PLA a few years ago, and it was shocking. But these pictures were release long after China engaged in building it’s next-generation subs, so I have to wonder whether they will influence concerns for safety.
I have to agree. The CCP, and all of China really, has a tendency to dash ahead to ruin. I wish it were not so.
Leonard R.
The US should not rest on this advantage. It should forward deploy more submarines into areas where they will be needed and embark on an ambitious construction program of new fast attack submarines.
Assets should be moved into areas where they will be needed.
This is already happening to some degree. But it needs to continue.
ozivan
The Chinese should be placed on notice, to develop newer and many more submarines, OTH radars, surveillance satellites as fast as they could or be dammed.
Reason
@ Ozivan – your comment proves my persistent point a thousand times over
I rest my case… who is going to operate and run all the new ’stuff’ China makes?
Just like in the Great Leap Forward,… there was a big rush to make loads of steel… for what? no one wanted to buy it, and China couldn’t use it … but the drive was to make, make, make, let’s make more steel than Britain……. and make China Great!
So, let’s just say… China makes 50 Nuclear subs and 10 aircraft carriers in 10 years… who’s gonna operate them in ways that would be useful in a war?
In your career they say it takes ten years to become proficient at a skill… right now the Chinese navy has no experience at offshore power projection other than a few ‘non combat’ sojourns to the Gulf… so all of the crews, including the Captains are still in the learning phase and could not be called ’skilled’ in what they are doing (That’s if we measure it against a usual career skill development track) And obviously, learning to operate a 300metre combat ship is probably a lot harder than say, computer programming, being a nurse, running a school or whatever…
In 10 years time.. if the Varyag is launched today – combat ready… we might say that China has some ’skilled’ Carrier Captains and crew.
So, here is the problem… China can probably build a whole lot of kit and ton for ton match the US in every way… but who is going to operate all this new kit…???
Japan had exactly the same problem in WWII
The sinking of their carriers at Midway, not only destroyed their fleet but meant the loss of 1000s of indispensable engineers that were needed to fix the planes and the boats.
training up pilots to ram US ships was easy… but finding enough engineers and technicians who actually knew how to keep the planes and boats working hobbled the J-War-machine more than actual loss of the hardware. Japanese Industry could still churn out ships, but they lacked the skilled human resource to man them effectively
And human knowledge takes time… it can’t be rushed.
No doubt, China’s newly acquired industrial might can tun out hundreds of destroyers, frigates, subs and even aircraft carriers – but WHO is going to sail them?
roland
I agree with you. 1979 war with Vietnam is a study case: PLA inexperience in war showed. It takes real fighting through few wars to gain good experience.
yang zi
The shallow waters in east China sea is not ideal for big subs. it is also possible that China can build a undersea surveillance network along its coast. but subs deployed beyond first island chain pose a big problem for China.
America will maintain its military hardware advantage in years to come, but political leaders always ask the question of the effectiveness of a war. Even with all the hysteria about the conflicts, I don’t see a war breaking out between US and China.
China doesn’t need to spend as much as US, just enough to be able to sustain a war with US and keeps its strategic deterrence viable. China’s advantage is its limited goal:defend itself. US is forward deployed all over the world and spending too much on redundancies, this is a burden US cannot afford over the long run. Besides, what is at stake here for US? Ego?
Cyrus
At stake for the US is Hegemony. Also, it’s influence in the Region which US have controlled after WWII save for Indochina.
MattC
Sigh. Sun Tzu’s Art of War says it is the best result when you can win without going to war. This is what China is attempting and why we see all the internet intrusions, jostling for south china sea then pullback, threat to US space capability etc… It is the new war, no war, sun tzu art of war, copied and made in China.
yang zi
One should not rely too much on Sun Tzu’s Art of War. Everything is dependent on the circumstances and your foe. Using Sun Tzu’s book to explain China’s actions is too simplistic.
You are better off compare China’s actions to america’s doves and hawks, democrats and republicans taking turns controlling the government.
What you are witnessing is China’s changing political and social dynamics. individualism is taking roots, political plurality is making its gains.
Leonard R.
Yang Zi is consistently the most sensible pro-China poster here.
passerby
Although I do agree with the points that the author had pointed out regarding China unable to match the US capabilities, but I am actually suprised that the author didn’t take into account the following news regarding chinese subs.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html
This may have been old news, but worth bearing in mind, as it had happened once, it may happen again. Regardless of what everyone knows about China is like many years behind the US in military technology, however, who could guess what China have already developed. US needs to be more cautious.
duke chan
This is pure politic. The US allowed it to happen to painted China as a superpower so they can sell old, outdated weapons to the countries bullied by China.
Leonard R.
This is why war is inevitable. The PLA cannot resist this kind of needless provocation. The US should have considered this an act of war and destroyed that sub. If China were intelligent, the sub would not have surfaced. It would have kept its capabilities hidden. But PLA commanders could not resist. Just like Wrong Way Wang Wei could not resist attacking an EP3 and just like Lang Lang could not resist delivering a blood insult to every American family whose fathers and grandfathers served in the Korean War.
You’re not dealing w/grown-ups here. You’re dealing w/immature children who love to show off.
BTW, one Chinese sub has already committed an act of war off the coast of Caliornia within the past year. Add to that the ASBM, the countless cyber attacks. The US and China are already at war. But only one side is fighting it.
World Traveler
Here we go again with more “far right” rhetoric. It would be nice to read about improving friendship between China and America rather than hysterics about our submarines’ capabilities!
Duke Chan
For China, either control or be controlled my friends.
Shen Liang
Unfortunately, many foolish people in China, and particularly the sick minds in the PLA, feel the same way. They paint the future as a scene in which China will have to be paramount or disappear. This type of black-or-white thinking is a sign of a debased intellect and moral evisceration, for in their “choice” we find a willingness to ride China to destruction if they can’t get what they want. The simple fact is that China hasn’t been in control of the South China Sea for the last 15 years, that China has played second fiddle to the US, and it has not suffered from this. If China is ever to be a part of a peaceful world, it will have to accept some controls, as will other nations.
Cyrus
You and ozivan are actually one of the most logical Pro-Chinese bloggers here. Yeah if only China did not provoke Vietnam and the Philippines there would not have been so much Anti-Chinese sentiment in the Region.
The Philippines for one is not seeking to expand its claims and is only holding on to Islands it has control over and also its EEZ. If China did not provoke the Philippine’s it would have maintained the cordial relationship between Manila and Peking (Beijing).
ChinaHongKong
The latest japanese Daily Yomiri editorial had this headline:
Keep an eagle eye on China’s military build up.
Well the PLA modernisation or build up is to make sure China 2011 is not the China of the opium war era,Mao’s time or even up to 1996 or 2000.The aim is to make sure the Chinese aint going to be bullied,humiliated or trampled again. This is to make sure the US with all its military might aint going to have things their way.Of course the PLA is outgunned and out powered in both conventional and nuclear weapons.Rather if the US US were to prevail ,it would be a pyrhhic victory.
The US is six thousand km from China yet its carriers or gunboats are 300 km from Chinese coast. The US would not tolerate Soviet missiles on Cuba.So there is one law for the US and one for the others,all in the US favour.The Chinese aim to make sure in a shooting war there would be no sanctuaries.Btw the word sanctuary was used by Rusk when NV planes attacked US planes and flew to Yunnan.
The US can deter Chna but it doesnt want it the other way.Well all good things must come to an end. As for the Japs,any US conventional or nuclear missile fired from Japan on China will require a response on Japan and US.China is not NV where US planes regularly bombed NV with immunity.
The Chinese need not build carrier for carrier and need not have an overkill capacity.In the words of McNamara the ability to inflict unacceptable damage should serve as a deterrent.
Cyrus
Really? I wonder why then the Chinese are bullying the SEA countries now. Who would believe that Chinese Military build up is only for defensive stratagem and to assuage that China would never be again conquered.
ChinaHongKong
The world and US nuclear policy has moved on since McNamara talked about unacceptable damamge.The latest is the US flushed with its immense superiority in NW over China,has achieved nuclear primacy.The temptation is in the event of a Taiwan war, the US would be in a position to destroy 90% of the PLA nm.
Well it’s a risky gamble.You can shoot a dead person 1000 one thousand times. But the person going to die has only to shoot tow or five times to deter the killer unless the latter is irrational.
Neverthelless I see the PLA building up nuclear deterrent to a respectable level.
And pleas e don’t think taking out the PLA N deterrent will not result in a nw.
A despesrate man with nothing to lose would simply lash out.
bishop
All true, but so what? At the end of the day, USA and China do not go to war unless China chooses to go to war.
This happens if and only if Taiwan declares independence.
But: (1) Taiwan’s economy is dependent on China, and that’s only going to grow in the near future. More importantly (2) the Chinese kept their word on HK (1 country 2 systems). So why in the world would Taiwan start a war?
Being able to choose whether to go to war or not is the biggest strategic advantage of all. You only do it if you can win.
James Wong
There is absolutely no doubt the US can prevail in any war with China.The problem is victory in a war with China will entai enormous destruction on both sides with China coming off worst. The Chinese aint going to attack the CONUS.
However it’s the US which seeks to attack China in any Taiwan war scenario.
Taiwan is of vital importance to China.I believe if the Chinese were unable to wreak destruction on the US,the latter could have detached Taiwan from China.
Of course the US would have have tried to separate Taiwan from China if the cost were acceptable. With the passage of time,the price would in the years to come
be prohibitive.The US cannot wish PLA power increase to go away.It will become more powerful,not of the mad category of the cold war,but enough to give US cause for concern.
The trick is to work out a face saving scheme to get the Taiwan problem of the the US back.This will take time.
Reason
Give me one reason why Japan would tolerate a Taiwan controlled by an unfriendly government such as the CCP, which could then hold Japan to task at it’s southern flanks.
Taiwan has been “Japan friendly” for over a 100years. Even hundreds of years before this the Qing had no effective control over Taiwan.
The Taiwan situation is not just about the US and China. Japan is a very real, silent player in this game.
Lung Sha Shou
You reckon!!! I wish it were so.
The Chinese would eat the US alive NOW!
Even RAND modelling shows the US technical superiority in aircraft would count for little
What do you think the reaction would be if/when LA and Chicago are in ashes?
What do you think the reaction would be in China if 20 of their cities were in ashes.
China will start it and they have 5000 kilometres of tunnels (so no you can’t seal them in) their infrastructure will be in much better shape and the butchers would still be breathing with enough staff and control to continue.
America has barely the political will to save itself from financial crisis let alone deal with a master strategist like China.
Reason
BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS – BREAKING NEWS
China claims Nine-dotted-line around the newly discovered salt water on Mars – citing indisputable evidence
Observer
I can see it now.
Chinese submarines sunk in the deep sea due to incompetent and poor quality.
China response to the world: “It was due to lightning, sorry about that”. LMAO.
hypocrite?
You laugh at innocent lives lost in a tragic accident. You wouldn’t do the same to your people, or even tolerate it. This shows you are not compassionate, and not worthy of being called a human.
What about the nuclear power plants in Japan? The stage that collapsed in America? The SCHOOL GYM that collapsed in America? You don’t laugh at those, do you?
LolpwnedUmadnow?
poi
relax, ww3 won’t happen anytime soon. in ww2 times nobody speak english, right now, almost 70% of the world has become one by internet and speaking english, each one understand others. i hope in near future there is large asteroids heading earth, so the world needs to unite or die.
D. Stoner
Wasn’t it Just about 70 Years ago Men from the United States Volunteered to Go Help the Chinese Against the Brutal Japanese Invasion?. So what we’re talking about, War between the US and China, Men who Fought to Help men, Who’s Grandsons Now want to fight each other. Sounds Logical….
What would be the Point of a War…It’s not like the US could Invade and Conquer China. Nor could China do the Same to the US. We Got enough Problems going on in the world Both Militarily, Socially, Economically, Environmentally, etc..
All a War with China would do ( Most Likely Mainly Fought in the South China Sea and surrounding Area ) Would Litter an already Dying Fishery with More Nuclear and Toxic Debris. Thereby Starving out a Billion or so more people. A Pointless War, with No Legitimate Winner, Nothing would be Gained.
D. Stoner
But to Stay on Topic, Modernizing Russian Designs with French Designs, Could Prove to be a Problem. China’s Surface Forces Could Hold it’s own for a short while against a few CVBG’s , But a Few US Subs could Definitely Keep the PLA-N Essentially Cornered in the South China Sea. The HAN’s were and Still are Incapable on Fighting Even Modern Diesel Submarines. The Mings are Outdated Like an 8 Track Player. the Jin’s Might get a Few Licks in before they’re caught. The Songs Would Be fine if they stayed close to Home in the Shallows ( we can’t even train Good ASW Crews here anymore due to Wales washing up on Beaches. Anyone who Knows Anything about Fighting Subs, would Know that the Shallows are the Hardest Place to Detect Subs Acoustically. And we Learned a Few years Back even China’s Oldest Intercept Birds Don’t even have to fire a shot to take down a P-3. It’s Like Trench Warfare.
xenri_06
philippines can be a good ally for china, unfortunately its already influence and used by u.s but still china can support cpp npa ndf a left wing communist to change the political situation in phl and gain control over it..
EvilBigot
I don’t know why everyone is so focused on a chimerican war… when everyone should really be focused on a zombie apocalypse. Get your heads in the game people.
Lung Sha Shou
D’Oh, Does he even rememember the USS Kitty Hawk episode? Of the November 2010 underwater ballistic missile launch of the LA coast.
Sounds like he’s trapped in the 1940 idea that little yellow men couldn’t possibly develop advanced naval capacities and skilled submarine operations – they haven’t had enough practice.
Sorry, I just don’t believe it. I am no fan of the Beijing Fascist Regime but you would have to be an idiot to believe that the US has a snowballs chance in hell of actually limiting and containing them easily.
Never underestimate your opponent, especially one as cashed up, free of scruples, masterful in espionage and theft of intellectual property, and skilled at subverting your own people as they.
By they time their capacity is realised it will be too late.
ari
Why is Washington so bl**dy hostile towards China and the Chinese people? What gives with this b*st*rd government?