It’s surprising and hurtful when your new best friend turns round and pokes you in the eye. But that’s essentially what India has just done to the United States, with a major arms deal the source of the affront.
Remember this was meant to be the strategic partnership with an air of historic inevitability about it: India and the United States, the world’s two biggest democracies, linking arms to help manage the rise of China, a country seen more as a rival than a partner in both Washington and New Delhi.
The relationship had been on the up and up until, at the end of April, India delivered a surprising snub. Neither Boeing nor Lockheed Martin, the two US defence primes bidding for a lucrative Indian Air Force (IAF) contract, had even made it onto the selectors’ shortlist, the Indian government announced, with France’s Dassault and the European EADS consortium winning through at their expense.
For the United States it was a double-whammy: both a commercial and a strategic reverse. The deal is for 126 fighter jets worth $11 billion, and, as the biggest defence export tender currently open anywhere, it was a painful one to watch slip away. Perhaps more importantly, India, through its decision, placed a value on its strategic partnership with the United States, and that value, we now know, isn’t so high as to give the US a leg-up in this kind of open contest.
The United States wasn’t anticipating failure. President Barack Obama visited India in November to lobby on behalf of the US entrants, and India had only recently signed up to buy US-built reconnaissance and transport aircraft, as well as clinching a ground-breaking civil nuclear deal with Washington in 2008. The US ambassador to India, Timothy J. Roemer, made no attempt to hide his country’s ‘deep disappointment’ at India’s choice and promptly resigned, it was widely assumed, in utter dismay.
Why, then, would India elect to burn the fingers of its US partner? The answer is that while it would be naive to suggest that the awarding of major arms contracts isn’t a political decision, it’s certainly a technical decision as well. And technically, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet or Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN just didn’t light any fires amongst the IAF top brass—an assessment that stunned US analysts, who thought that the Super Hornet, in particular, was a strong contender. ‘There was surprise in India at the extent of the US disappointment,’ says Rahul Roy-Chaudhury, head of the South Asia programme at the International Institute of Strategic Studies. ‘But the Indian mindset was that this deal wasn’t about cementing relationships, it was about getting the best deal. The Indian view is that the Americans should have offered better aircraft.’
The Americans also fell down on technology transfer, an essential concession nowadays when selling defence kit to developing but politically powerful countries like India, and they failed to iron out their prohibitive end user agreements, which the IAF find pretty tiresome to deal with. ‘If the US had really reformed its processes and said to the Indians, “You’re our partners, you’re our equals,” then the F-18 would have had a very strong chance,’ reckons aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, who is vice president at the Teal Group. ‘That’s the approach the Europeans took—they came and said, “We need you.” I hope this is a rude awakening for (the US defence sector).’ The memory of the United States’ refusal to export critical aircraft parts to India during the 1999 Kargil conflict with Pakistan also still rankles in Indian political-military circles. The new plane is to be India’s front-line fighter, and some Indian decision-makers don’t yet trust the United States enough to buy such a core capability from them.
All the US can do, Aboulafia says, is take this defeat on the chin. India still has tens of billions to spend on upgrading its military and it remains an indispensible strategic partner. For its part, New Delhi has made a clear statement that it can be a US ally, but never a client.
Reddit
Digg
StumbleUpon
Delicious
Technorati
Yahoo
Google
Plurk
Frank
“It’s surprising and hurtful when your new best friend turns round and pokes you in the eye. But that’s essentially what India has just done to the United States” and it is not the first time that Indians have done to their “best” friends.
We all know what men’s best friends are. They are reliable as long as there are food. When food run out, they will start to look for other “friends”.
Americans need to read more about Indians.
Johnny
@Frank What the hell is wrong with you?
You accuse Indians of siding with USA in nearly every comment but when they reject a deal you start posting shit about that too!
Typical 50 cent hypocrite.
Also, instead of quoting the first line why not quote the conclusion of article…
“For its part, New Delhi has made a clear statement that it can be a US ally, but never a client.”
EAM
Johnny, I think it is very hard to convince someone with an entirely fixed position. Most countries in the region see a win-win with a strong and prosperous India but sadly not Frank. However, if he were look at the China-India trade figures and trends, maybe he would change his mind.
Frank
China’s trade figure with India is less than Vietnam or a Wal-mart.
India is useless to China.
EAM
The China India trade has historically been the largest in the world until about 1700. From next to nothing about 10 years ago, it has been galloping ahead and is expected in time to return to its historical position. India is China’s 7th largest export detination and do not be suprised to see India clim up much higher in a short time.
guest
Frank is a Pakistani troll
Frank
7th ??? !!!
EAM:
You are not a business man as you claimed to be. You must spend tooooo much time with Indians. You started to learn their habits.
EAM
“As of 2010, India has emerged as China’s seventh largest
export market”
http://www.pinebridge.com/WP/WP_PineBridge-China-India.pdf
Frank, I stand by the statistic I quoted. Please do not make comments without verifing facts (as you do frequently).
Mishmael
“Most countries in the region see a win-win with a strong and prosperous India”
That is not, strictly speaking, true. Is Pakistan not a country now? Or how about Sri Lanka, where Indian meddling prolonged the terrifying civil war between the government and the LTTE? Or how about Nepal, where Indian interference deposed the king, and ushering in a Maoist party? Or Sikkim, which is not even a country anymore after it was annexed by India….
India is not an innocent child. It is a normal country, with friends, rivals, and enemies. While I categorically dislike Frank’s opinions abount Indians, I do agree that India should not be given the honor of being above intellectual scruitny. That only reinforces the dangerous build-up of nationalism.
EAM
Mishmael, I agree. India acts like all great powers and is not better or worse than any other. My point is that the more India grows and moves away from being a poor country, better for all. That also goas for China, Brazil and Indonesia. Yes – I also agree that near neighbours might see it differently – as do China’s near neighbours about China – but surely, how does it help anyone if India or China remain poor?
Frank
Now we have a definition of Greatness.
Guest2
Frank is a simple bigoted troll. He is not a 50cent.
Real 50cents post exclusively on Chinese language fora in support of the CCP. They are paid by the post not by merit so they usually spam their posts repetitively like a bot. In many cases, they are bots. Calling anyone who disagrees with you a 50cent is itself trolling behaviour. In that respect, you and Frank have a great deal in common and deserve each other richly.
Frank
If Johnny wants to be an East Asian like Korean, I am wondering why he cares so much about India.
I said Indians need masters. However, I also said Indians are not loyal to their masters.
Indians were the only people fought for all sides including England, Germany, Japan, and USA during WWII. And WWII is not even an India war.
That history tells you about what Indians are. EAM, watch out.
Grant
I find it amazing how someone who constantly takes the Chinese side and attacks the West can utter racist statements towards India without hesitation. And if we want to talk about WWII, India did far more to fight it than the Chinese Communist Party ever did.
John Chan
@Grant, you criticised Frank “utter racist statements towards India without hesitation.” but you uttered untruthful statements about CCP’s fighting against imperial fascist Japan in WWII is also on par with Frank’s statements in terms of prejudice. Only the Indian troops under the British command fought against fascist in WWII, rest of Indians were either indifference to the war or outright pulling allies’ leg in fighting against the fascist. There were Indians on fascist Japanese side fighting against allies, and Mahatma Gandhi refused to talk to Chiang Kai-shek who flew to India in order to persuade Gandhi to put defeating the fascist first.
Although racist troll does not advance any legitimate argument, but distorting truth also cannot advance any rational discussion too.
EAM
Gandhi did meet Chiang Kai Shek (and Mayling Soong). Here is the photo
http://www.cosmeo.com/viewPicture.cfm?guidImageId=347984C8-372B-4368-A2B0-2C1896826797&&nodeid=
I disagree with your reading of the Indian role in WWII. India’s role is one of the truly forgetten stories of WWII. For a good history, I recommend “Forgotten Armies” by Christpher Bayly http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Armies-Christopher-Bayly/dp/0140293310/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305075239&sr=8-1. I think that the Indian Army in WWII was the largest volunteer army ever raised. This could not have occurred if Indian society at large was hostile or indifferent to the Allies. Didn’t they even send as medical mission to serve in China – with the 8th Route Army as it happens?
Frank
EAM:
I agree with you that “the Indian Army in WWII was the largest volunteer army ever raised” by English, Germans, Japanese, and Americans.
What amazes me the most is that Indians regard these volunteer gun folders as heroes.
It is true that there are Chinese traitors. However, those traitors are never regarded as heroes by Chinese. In contrast, most of the traitors were killed by Chinese people.
There are shames in every country.
India is the only country that is shameless.
Citizen
Frank,
Anything can be portrayed in the worst possible manner with a simple change in perspective.
“Indians were the only people fought for all sides including England, Germany, Japan, and USA during WWII. And WWII is not even an India war.”>> Did you really read Indian history and the context in which the men who fought laid down their lives for the respective sides? Do you even remotely understand what was afoot in India in the WW2 decade and its preceding history?
Do not look at facts in isolation and then build convenient bridges to fit your prejudice. It’s sad and shows a lazy, negative and stagnant mindset.
“Indians need masters. However, I also said Indians are not loyal to their masters.”>> For a man who was neither a part of India’s freedom struggle nor the one to make the sacrifices, you are pretty judgmental. No one, Indians or otherwise ‘needs’ masters. No country will choose to remain under foreign rule for long. If your country was captured and ruled for a foreign powers, will your freedom struggle be labelled at disloyalty to the ‘Masters’?
I can only pity you and pray to god to give you some wisdom.
EAM
“Indians were the only people fought for all sides”. Not true. Not just India but other countries had people who were pro-Japanese inlcuding China, eg Wang Jing Wei’s regime in Nanjing, Indonesian, Burmese and Filipno nationalists. Wang Jing Wei was not just anyone but a senior Guomindang leader. In Europe also, the Germans had no trouble finding collaborators in the countries they occupied and countries they wer at war with, Petain, Russian Cossacks, Englang’s Lord “Haw Haw” and others. I think there was even an English Waffen SS unit, the “Britisches Freikorps”. Learn you WW II history before making comments.
John Chan
Don’t forget the Nazi party in the US too.
Grant
Yes there were American sympathizers. Any American soldier suspected of sympathizing with Germany was kept in a unit far away from the war where they couldn’t do any harm.
On another note, of course it was only Indians under British command. It’s sad but back then any Indian forces would be under British command. There weren’t any Indian forces under Indian command because it didn’t exist.
Frank
Ever see a Chinese fighting for Hitler?
Germans do not like colored people.
It is very interesting the Indians are fighting for Nazi.
Don’t Indians ever look into the mirror?
EAM
What is misuderstood about Fascism was that it was not simply German, Japanese and Italian nationalism in an extreme form. It was actually a phenomenon with a global reach producing some strange outcomes. So yes, there were Chinese in both the Wehrmacht and the SS
Read
“Wehrmacht and SS: Caucasian, Muslim, Asian Troops”
http://www.amazon.com/Wehrmacht-SS-Caucasian-Muslim-Troops/dp/2840482193/ref=pd_sim_b_1
.. or even a google serach will throw up some information.
There were even African Nazis “Black Nazis! A Study of Racial Ambivalence in Nazi Germany’s Military Establishment: Non-German Ethnic Minority and Foreign Volunteers, Conscripts, Laborers and POWs, 1940-1945″
http://www.amazon.com/Racial-Ambivalence-Germanys-Military-Establishment/dp/1934703516/ref=pd_sim_b_3
EAM
I might add that though Chiang Kai Shek was one of the four great Allied leaders, his government had been close to Germany. In fact his son, Chiang Wei-Kuo commanded and led a panzer unit into Austria during the Anschluss.
This does not of course mean that Chinese, Indian, British or any other collaboratirs with the Axis derogate from the fact that these were Allied countries.
Frank
There were traitors in all nations.
However, only Indians were “volunteering” in MILLIONS to fight for all 4 sides.
Indian solders can be recycled. You do not even need to build a POW camp for them.
Amazing !!!
Frank
The funny part is that we never see Johnny’s comments in the articles regarding Korea.
Indians are surely not very honest.
I can understand why Johnny is ashamed to be regarded as an Indian. However, pretend to be a Korean is just too much of a liar.
Don’t you think?
Johnny
@Frank If that is true then You must be an Indian And I am an Chinese since you post mostly in Indian articles and I post in Chinese. Nobody needs a certificate from someone else, especially from someone like you who actively support terrorism, armed rebellion and post racist remarks every next comment. You are the only commentator whose Comments are routinely deleted by the admins of this site even after they have been posted.
EAM
Grant, more of less the same thing happened in Australia. That is, a few pro-Nazi people were locked up. Mostly, they were a bunch of crazies and misfits.
Dasrath
@Frank Take a chill pill. You are full of yourself if you think someone will have trouble of lying to you. Who do you think your are?
This is an news site it would be better if you post about news instead of your country origin related remarks. Online communities are based on trust if you dont like people here go find an new community instead of posting same sickening gibberish in every news thread.
Frank
I understand that Indians never have trouble lying to me or to everybody else.
My point is why Indians are so ashamed of admitting that he is an Indian?
Why do you have to lie about that?
Dady
Oh cry me a river. So after stealing countless designs and copyrights Chinese are pointing there fingers at others? They shall get back to what they did best. Feeding hormone filled milk to there children which made them grow boobs if reports were correct. Suck on that.
Dasrath
@Frank I suggest an very simple solution. User named Frank shall prove to us that he is from China. He shall post his -
1- Full street address complete with all little details.
2- Post his phone number in China and shall call us from that number to prove he has that phone in possession.
3- Shall send an copy of his ID card in China, ID must show his address given above and bills that are paid on that address.
4- An certificate from family commission in China so as to prove he really has an Chinese heritage.
If he can do all these then we shall consider his claims about origin of other people. If he does not he should shut the f* up.
Frank
It is an insult to regard me as an Indian.
I protest !!!!!!!
This comment should be removed ASAP.
EAM
Frank, you are entitled to engage in anti-Indian diatribes if you like – even though in doing so, you make China look bad not India. However, you do need to get your facts right.
The point about India in WWII, is that Indians do not talk much about their military achievements – nor Pakistanis for that matter who share those achievements – they do not express pride and embrace these achievements as part of their military history. These achievements are considerable. They beat the Germans, Italians and Japanese, in fact fighting and winning the second biggest land battle of WWII (after Stalingrad) at Kohima-Imphal and inflicting a decisive defeat on Japan. Their non-engagement with this part of their past is regrettable – but understandable since they were fighting under a foreign flag. The history of these forgotten achievements is generally written by British historians not Indians or Pakistanis including some of the British general that led the Indian Army. Wavell who led the 4th Division compared the Indians to the “Tenth Legion, The Light Division of the Peninsular War and Napoleon’s Old Guard” – one of the fullest compliments paid by a general to his men.
Similarly, every American school kid knows of Valley Forge and John Paul Jones but few would know of Washington’s military achievements when he fought for and not against Britain in the Seven Years War. Like the Indians, the Americans do not generally embrace within their military history, what they achieved under a foreign flag.
david
Dude, i dont agree with frank about his extreme view of indians, but i also find appalling ur attempt to airbrush and glorify the imperial nature of two world wars, which in my opinion is nothing more than a struggle between dominant powers ( usa, british, french and their colonial followers) and rising ones( germany, itally and japan) for colonies and trading priveleges at the expense of the rest of world.
Dont u dare for a second to bs me with “defending free world and democracy” propoganda. Yes, nazies were brutal and japanese ruthless in their respective atrocities. But how were those different from internment of japanese americans, genocide of indigenous population and segregation between whites and black back in those ally countries. They were perpetrated by those very goverments that at the same time, were portraying themselves as the defenders of morality in their declaration of war on axis countries. It was a travesty to do it then and its even more outrageous for them to stick to the old script of lies in their annual war commemorations now.
Pl, dude, Its tragic for those indians, pakistanis and others to have fought for another nation whose colonial rule has been and still is the very source of friction and instability on the continent so the nation could hold onto their imperial conquest, its even insulting to suggest that they should do well to preserve and cherish that history lest they forget that once upon a time he was forced or manipuated to kill a white man on behalf of another whiteman, for what?
Was there peace and harmony after those unjust wars? No,How could there ever be? Chinese goverment joined allies in ww1 only to find that the free world had decided to transfer germany special trading zone on chinese territory to japan in the aftermath of versaille treaty. Or colour soldiers in american force that fought japanse in the pacific, partly in defense of australia, had their application for citizenship rejected by australian goverment, because to them, only thing these soldiers were good for were like canon fodder to be wasted in the battle field.
I often wonder if germany had been a predominant empire with overwhelming military force and had defeated anglo-saxons in two wars, how the world would have been like. Two things would be different, one is that this discussion here would be in german and there would not be millions of displaced palestinians anguishing in refugee camps. Or, allow me to be bold here, there would be much less pro- us war mongers.
Jai Misra
Over 2.5 Million Indian soldiers fought for Royal Indian Army with the British during WW II. Indians paid heavily to fight that war.
Granted Subash Chandra Bose and his boys fought alongside the Japanese. Thier reasons were different they had fought against the British in India as well. Theirs was another Battle.
This current issue is that Indians feel that Americans time and again have proved to be unreliable partners to the Indians. They did not offer what India required hence they lost.
Leonard R.
It seems this was more about technology transfer restrictions than anything else.
And it’s a serious issue, not only with India, but with many other countries.
How secure can the technology be, if we sell it to other nations?
I think the US should errbon the side of keeping our secrets safe.
EAM
Leonard, I see the dilemma. It is a choice between jobs (in Oregon or Toulouse as the case may be) and not giving away critical military intellectual property. I guess the French went for the jobs and the US the other way. The US has always been very careful in this regard – even with its allies – whereas the Europeans have been a lot more “flexible”.
But in the end, I would imagine that the overall strategic considerations prevail rather than the ups and downs of this contract.
John Chan
There is one possibility that India does not want to choose US planes, it is the Pakistan factor. Pakistan has years’ experience of US planes ahead of India, which is fatal when it comes to real aerial combat. A different aeroplane will eliminate that disadvantage and put India on the equal footing with Pakistan when it comes for real blows.
India is way better to pick Euro fighter, because France is not a very reliable long-term supplier if India gets reference from Taiwan, Libya, Argentina, etc. Furthermore the capability to improve their weapons is limited due to their national size, resources and military independence policy.
Ash
The decision is purely to get the best bang out of a buck. If India is spending such a huge amount, it is fair to say they want the best technology available in the market.
I see a lot of articles saying India snubbed US, but at the same time, it did so even with the Russians. The MIG-35 too was rejected. This clearly shows the deal was to get best aircraft and nothing to do with political relations.
Apart from the spares parts fear of India, it should not be forgotten that US has also given F-16 to Pakistan ‘to fight insurgents’. Very obviously India wouldn’t want such aircrafts.
Also the F-16 and Hornets are decades old technologies.
If US was really interested in ‘allying’ with India, it could have gone out of the way and offered F-22 or F-35. But it did not.
If the US wanted to sell rusted technology at $11 billion, just because Obama visited India last year, it can be noted here that Medvedev, Sarkosky, David Cameroon had also visited India last year.
Conclusion – if you want to sell something, give what the buyer wants, not what you want to sell.
Abhilash Pillai
I am amused when you call India America’s best friend. How can a best friend sell military hardware and F-16 to its best friend adversary Pakistan? Will America come to defend its best friend at the time of war?
Russians helped us in our war with Pakistan. On the other hand, all we got from US were snubs, and that too when we were at war.
Grant
There are reasons why the U.S is so reluctant to share technology without guarantees. When we do give other nations our weapons we get criticized for it (even if Russia and China don’t), and more than once those nations have decided to resell the technology to hostile powers.
Kimpo
USA assistance is greatly appreciated here so it is no general rule. The USA is criticized for trying to play fair when others are cheating. We have more than enough material to make hundred nuclear but USA stops everytime while China has hundreds of missile pointed at us. This half hearted attempts are bad as it means USA wants us to remain dependant for protection.
Frank
Americans are smart !!!
pmukherjee
Who wrote this idiotic article? India was never USA’s best friend, new or old. Our interests converge in certain areas and they don’t in various other areas. It is true that neither the US nor India count on China as a best friend, but does that make us America’s best friend? The enemy of our enemy may become our friend, but does that mean that we have buy their fighters? Even if those fighters are not exactly what we want and they come with attached strings as long as from here to Mars? What obligation did we have of buying American fighters? Simply that it would have been a gateway into a nebulous ’strategic relationship’ in which we would have been the junior partner to be kicked around and bullied as per the prevailing mood on Capitol Hill? Isn’t Pakistan example enough for us to realise exactly how glorious it is to be an ally of America?
For the entire length of the history of independent India, if any country has stood by our side for most of the time, it is Russia. If the Russian candidate was not found suitable, what chance did the Americans have? Especially since America has been hostile to us for most of the aforesaid period of time. Relationship between nations do not develop in months and years, they need decades. How does the author claim that America is our new best friend when USA still continues to arm Pakistan, our enemy? Does he think we are bloody blind?
We do not owe anything to anyone. We have the money to buy the best in the world. If A will not sell it or will attach strings and conditions, we will buy it from B. We do not belong to any block. India will do what is best for India.
Komath
I agree. We will decide for ourselves. If the Americans are disappointed, so be it. I don’t see why America should be disappointed if they were our friends. Is our relationship with them only about the trade and the defence deals? Does not buying American jets make us bad friends? Then so be it.
danA
I don’t know what, in all honesty, America expected out of this. India puts out a tender for a modern, medium combat aircraft, accepting bids from multiple countries. EADS and Dassault show up with 4.5 generation fighters, built on airframes that were put into production in the past ten years (or so) and that were designed from the ground up to accommodate the stresses and needs of their modern technology. The US and Russia show up with planes that are upgrades to airframes thirty years old. Yes, the Super Hornet in particular is a decent plane, with vastly expanded capabilities compared to the original, but it lacks some of the performance that you would get if you had built a new plane from the ground up.
Because of the US focus on cutting-edge, expensive, and long-term weapons development, the US seems to offer people two options: either the new, cutting edge, but tremendously expensive model that we’re moving to now, or the older model that we’ve stopped using. Although the US makes plenty of modern, high-tech, and capable combat systems, most of them are either restricted for export (like the F-22), or too expensive for most buyers (like the DDG-51, which the US has marketed well to Japan and Korea, but hasn’t even tried for most other smaller developing navies).
I think it was slightly crazy for the Americans to expect India to go for an older model airplane, even with the upgrades. I’ve heard a lot of good things about the Super Hornet, but I haven’t heard that it can match the maneuverability and aerial performance levels of the either the Typhoon or the Rafale. Maybe the lesson here is to choose our potential customers better.
arul
@Grant…
There are reasons why the U.S is so reluctant to share technology without guarantees…
Man, Europeans know the Indian well; they will transfer the state of the art weapon technology, but not as someone mentioned as for job creation. Did u know about the submarine technology transfer? The Europeans did thrice in the past and Indians did not master the technology. Being an Indian, and being graduated from the Jewell of India (IIT), i can say with confident: The technological skill of India is pathetic and may be equal to the Pakistanis (think how long they took to make nuclear weapon)
So do not worry about the technology transfer. This will massage the Indian ego nothing else.
EAM
It seems that every time something is written about India, whether it involves China or not, it turns into a bitter China India thing. This is disturbing to say the least because trouble between China and India affects not justs the two countries but everyone else. If commentators from third countries, come in on the question and express their views and, this is why. For a good discussion on China India issues from an Australian commentator, the attached link goes to an MP3 file. Worth listening to – the questions as well.
http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=1569
Frank
Do you think the phony Korea Johnny is from a third country?
No. He is an India.
EAM
I take at face value what Johnny says – that he is a South Korean. His particular discourse does not really sound like an Indian speaking – I guessed he might be have been a Brit but is actually S Korean. If you listen to Medcalf’s presentation at the link above, he makes the observation that there is a particular synergy between S Korea and India (I had not heard that reading of things before). S Korea has a very credible blue water naval capability going well beyond its needs in and around Korea. I think they are quite active in the Arabian Sea fighting pirates. Whether this is about S Korea India connections, I am not sure. However, this a country with a global reach with an increasing presence in India. So it kind of makes sense – but I stand to be corrected. I think though that a lot of China’s smaller neighbours have the same fears about China – as does India’s smaller neighbours about India. Maybe the problem is inherent in geography but then again, a different (and better) model for a similar situation may be the US-Canada relationship. We all look forward to the day when this is possible between bigger and smaller countries in our region.
Johnny
@EAM Some people are here only to derail discussions with their flaming and racism. If we stop believing other users then we wont get anywhere, how could @Frank can prove he is an Chinese? I think only reason for his ‘discomfort’ in acceptance is the fact that he mostly posts anti-India/anti-Viet posts and I debunk his posts on an regular basis. It would be easier for him to call me with stereotypes/racist remarks rather than discussing/posting on topic. So yeah, I can understand that buggers anguish.
And, appreciate your support buddy. Respect!
EAM
You’re welcome. We are all in this together – and I wish they could understand this is not a zero sum game.
Johnny
@EAM You know whats going to happen next? @Frank will say that you are my ID since you replied so fast to my comment!
John Chan
@Johnny, don’t be so self-righteous, the anti-China clique is way more skilful in derailing discussions with their flaming and racism. Just look at the comments posted by Kimpo, who is here first time, but instead of contributing meaningful discussion to the article, he is right of the bat to derail Chinese with fabricated facts from revisionist history written by the West and its lackeys.
All those nations surrounding China are not naive and helpless; they have been taking advantages on China for a long long time. They are pretending as victims in order to hold on to their ill gains, because they know they have to do real work now in order to keep what they got illegally. Meanwhile the US is glad to play the role of “siding the weak” and take advantages of such sentiment to encircle China for its hegemony in Asia. It is a perfect setup for the US and its lackeys to gang up on China whose rising wealth, technology, and strength are the sources of resentment, jealous and hatred by those who can’t make it themselves.
Frank
So Johnny:
Are you a Korean?
Answer two simple questions.
How many charaters are there in the name of North Korea’s captical?
What do those charaters mean?
EAM
You question about Pyongyang makes little sense. I am not Korean but even I can answer it from the first two lines of the Wikipedia article on Pyongyang.
Frank
You are making a big mistake to believe an East Indian at face value.
Am I right Johnny ?
Even Dasrath knew it. Dasrath is an East Indian.
Am I right Dasrath ?
Dasrath
@Frank You still haven’t proved that you are from China. You have no right to question others when you expect others to believe that you are Chinese simply because you say it. For all we know you are an Pakistani trying to harass both coutnries. Both India and China are great economies with bright future. But they have border with an failed terrorist state called Pakistan which recently made news for its completely failed military which slept while yankees landed near Paki capital.
I understand that Pakistanis never have trouble lying to me or to everybody else.
My point is why Pakistanis are so ashamed of admitting that he is an Pakistani?
Why do you have to lie about that?
Unless you prove you are Chinese You are an Pakistani Troll.
Johnny
@Chan First thing first. I am not the moderator of this site so dont tell me about @Kimpo’s comments. Especially when you yourself are indulged in posting racial remarks about Taiwanese calling them ‘Hideous’ and ‘Human Garbage’. However, I denounce his racism just as much as anybody’s else. Racism just makes poster and his country look stupid.
Second thing, there is no such thing as West and Lackeys ™. All countrys look after there best interest, simple as that. If countries are favoring USA then it has something to do with its political influence and it being an very lucrative market. Sometimes it also involves military partnership and protection. China is free to influence nations and make alliances on its own. But it seems it is poised to take an more aggressive approach.
velu
Friends cooldown.i am an indian. i think what india have done is right because we need better fighters to protect our nation.all these years we had stuck with russian weapons and now we have got good chance buy to nice fighters.don’t make it as a issue.and i don’t mean that us fightes are not worth .try to think why united states don’t need f18 or 16 anymore because to maintain the balance with china and russia these fighter won’t help.so they are inducting f22 and f35.we have more poblem with china and pak and they are getting stonger and they are near to us so understand guys.us is not read for any tech transfer but france .india has not stopped buying from us.we will buy c17 more c130 and f35 for navy.
Jai
“a friend that’s poked you in the eye??” I am indeed shocked and surprised to read this article. Clearly, you have business and relationships mixed up. In our part of the world, a friend is some one you can depend on – time after time India has tried friendship with us and we have been stabbed in the back- take the case of Pakistan – you have been arming them to the teeth with free weapons they use against us – f16 blk 52, p3 prions, harpoons, m 109’s , aim120 bvr missiles etc etc – do the Taliban have a navy or the air force .?? And then you offer the same f 16’s to us and expect us to pay us$ bn 15-20 ??
For years, we have been telling you of the role of Pakistan in terrorism against India and the rest of the world – you have just ignored the issue – till you were hit on 9/11 and even now show no concern for our concerns on terrorism coming from Pakistan, and go ahead and ban our defense industry and research institutes while giving free aid and weapons to the epicenter of global terrorism – Pakistan – is this how friends behave ?
Every time we ask you on Pakistan you say it’s business, well, we are learning business from you now. The aircraft deal is pure business too, why are you calling it a relationship ?? Indeed, we equate the world family with the word relationship, so are all American family relationships about money ??
We are the biggest democracy with more diversity than you can imagine and are united states of India with a strong union of 28 states – each of whom have their own language, culture, cuisine, literature, etc etc and have been a strong democracy for over 64 years and a civilization that is over 5000 years old and is the birthplace of science, mathematics, many religions, faiths , arts etc. Time you guys stop taking us for granted. You will have to learn to treat us equally and not use double standards if we are to do business together because we hate double standards.
Mohan
The US arms Pakistan so that India will be forced to upgrade its air force. It is as simple as that.
American aid is mostly arms and weapons and aim to destabilise the region to promote more sales of military equipment.
Any way F16 and F18 are obsolete fighters and no match for the chinese stealth fighter J20.
Daivd
?the West won the world not by the seuoriprity of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its seuoriprity in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do. Samuel P. Huntington
EAM
I obviously do not have a life and spend far too much time on the internet!
Johnny
@EAM XD. Free friendly advice, Never play World of Warcraft. That game is one of the most EVIL things on this planet! As a matter of fact anything by blizzard is evil!
Frank
Get a life then.
Kimpo
This page is so typical for anyone who saw any Mainlander blog. Frank is what happens when you hand an keyboard to an half-educated peasant. For those of you who know Asia history will know that only after Taiwan leader left the book burning and massacres happened. Han leadership just makes workers, give an Taiwani leadership and we will make leaders.
Frank
Thanks for not calling an Indian.
Kimpo
@Frank It is because of Mainlander like you we realize how superior we intellectually are and how great we are doing with our open system of knowledge and diplomacy. EAM has raised an perfectly valid point by accurately stating
“Frank, you are entitled to engage in anti-Indian diatribes if you like – even though in doing so, you make China look bad not India. “
Kimpo
@Frank It is because of Mainlander like you we realize how superior we intellectually are and how great we are doing with our open system of knowledge and diplomacy. EAM has raised an perfectly valid point by accurately stating
“Frank, you are entitled to engage in anti-Indian diatribes if you like – even though in doing so, you make China look bad not India.“
Frank
Wow !!!
I do not know that I have that power to make a 5,000 years old China with 1.4 billion people look one way or another.
I am truly flattered.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
EAM
Bu xie!
Frank
You are not Kimpo.
Frank
EAM:
I bet Kimpo does not understand what Bu Xie means.
Right Kimpo?
Your IQ is too low to understand Chinese. You are an East Indian.
Sanket Upadhyay
USA got tender for Globmaster III and now the USA is in final for an procurement of Fighter trainer aircrafts. The German Grob 120TP and the EADS PZL-130 Orlik TC-II were eliminated in a post-trial downselect. The Texan-II, the South Korean Aerospace KT-1 and Pilatus PC-21 are understood to be in the finals now. 181 aircrafts will be bought in this deal.
Frank
Great. India will have airplanes from all over the world. What a stupid decision. They do not even use the same system. American is using English system. Others are using metric system.
I see a big problem to keep these airplane flying. Indians cannot think staight.
Johnny
@Frank “Indians cannot think staight.”
@Sanket Though this contract will most likely go to USA, KT-1 is just the beginning of S.Korean-Indian defense co-operation. There was talk of joint venture in minesweepers too.
Frank
This is another proof that Johnny is an East Indian.
East Indians like to pick on other people’s typos.
Johnny:
Are you not an East Indian?
Johnny
@Frank You are being completely ridiculous now. Stereotyping, as you said to @Kimpo, an country of 1.25 billion people!
Chan and many other say you are not Chinese but I am still believing what you said about your origin at it is common decency and communities are build on mutual respect and trust. Two things that you shall do good to pay attention to!
Kimpo
@Johnny Only an idiot can expect ‘Mutual respect and trust’ from an mainlander. Those who actually know how they trade and how ethics mean nothing to mainlanders will agree with me.
Frank
Johnny:
I may be stereotyping, if you are just one from an country of 1.25 billion people.
Are you?
Sumit
Frank you sound like a Fossil from the dark ages when you describe Indians needing Masters.Yes Indians were under British rule for 300 years till 1947 but you have no clue about present day India and Indians in general.
Perhaps the MMRCA deal was a wakeup call for the Americans and also Indians.My reasons.
1.India is looking for a plane that has technology which can last them for a decade or 2.Why would we want 40 year old F-16 technology?
2.The same planes that are in Pakistan air force!
3.Pakistan being Americans closest ally were denied a batch of f-16’s for years when Pakistan made the payment years before.That could happen to us too!
4.When Kargil war happened India were running low on a certain Ammo which relied on American tech.We were denied crucial ammo at a crucial time but Israel came to our aid.
5.India was bogged down by US sanctions after 1974 and then 1998 but it didnt help really.The cost of onions went up by $2 and we were still comfortable.Sanctions did’nt affect us.
6.Yes provide us future proof technologies like raptors then we could talk shop.
7.America has a clause regarding”end user agreements”which actually means when India goes to war it needs to ask America when it can actually use those planes.seriously?
8.India recently purchased transport planes from America.Guess what they came to us in “strip down versions,devoid of crucial sensors”.
9.An dipplomat once said”When America sells something,they dont come with batteries,and if they do it would be a limited on going resource.When europeans sell something it comes with the battery and the user manual and a warranty!
10.Finally my take is-America needs to get down of its high horse and treat India as an ally like it treats Israel.When you mean natural allies,mean it and follow through.Dont sell us 1970’s junk!
This wasnt a poke in the eye,this was a straight up kick on your bum to wake you up and realise that Indians are no fools.
Personally if I’d go to battle I wouldnt have America on my flanks,they would screw up the batte ground!
Which country in the world sells planes to its freinds and enemies-America!
hope that says it all from a layman’s perspective in India.
PeterDownUnder
You reckon Nepal and Bhutan is more worried about China or India? I dare say these countries are similar to Tibet and would fear China more?
I think India is a much better country to live as an ethnic minority than China. It is democratic and lot of these ethnic enclaves get good amount of autonomy. I guess its a legacy of the British colonial way compared to the Qing which were so much more brutal.
But these periphery states and ethnic minorities are usually more Mongoloid than what ever the Indian’s are. So they could easily and perhaps be historically become part of China, for example the Indian North East which is historically and ethnically more Burmese than Indian.
When China is big and mighty it can easily make a Southern Expansion for abundant agriculture and natural resources and Northern. Only countries large enough to be troublesome for Chinese conquest would be Vietnam, Thailand, Korea, Japan. Central Asia would be as easily incorporated into China as it would into Russia now.
rant out
Dady
You should have completed your comment to conclusion.
And then world enters into another cold war. The various parts of asia that china tried to capture start to rebel. China tries to counter it by more military expenditure till it reaches breaking point and splinters and collapse like Reds did in 1991. And then Chine become an ghost of its former shelf with production facility in one country, lets call it Uyghuristan and maintainance facility in another lets call that Mongoland not to mention other small splinters. Remainder of China faces the grim truth that while it has enough power to attack an retake those parts that will surely result in an nuclear war and MAD. They retire and US of A expands it reach to its once member countries. Chinese end up worse they were in 2011 and they hope to come back to our shops and make coffee for us.
This is what I call an cappuccino ending.
JustPeace
What about President Hussain deciding to: Raise H1 visas to directly affect Indians r mocking the Indian medical industry? or the Bangalore IT industry? or Call centres? or Giving weapons to Pak which can only be used against and are uselees for fight against jihadis? There are a million other things i postulate but since the author has not been superficial just to belittle India he does not deserve any more of my time.
guest
Frank is an Pakistanis troll. Neither Johnny nor John Chan are aggressive. They just debate, even if their points are weak they are here to debate. Frank posts things like ‘China should send WW-II rifles’ ‘India shall let Kashmir go’ ‘China shall declare war on India’ . Pakistan is an country in South Asia with an collapsed economy, useless military and unique support for terrorists. Dont let him bait you to badmouthing each other.
GungHo
India and China are two very populous countries with ancient civilizations, friendship between two countries have a time honoured history, which can be dated back 2000 years back, since the establishment of diplomatic ties between our two countries, in particular the last ten year friendship and cooperation has made significant progress.
Premier Wen Jiabao
Kimpo
@Frank It is because of Mainlander like you we realize how superior we intellectually are and how great we are doing with our open system of knowledge and diplomacy. EAM has raised an perfectly valid point by accurately stating
“Frank, you are entitled to engage in anti-Indian diatribes if you like – even though in doing so, you make China look bad not India. “
John Chan
@Kimpo, Frank is most likely not a Mainlander. Chinese bloggers are here to fight people like you who are stereotyping China as demon with hideous purpose of retuning China to the unequal treaties era, so China and its people can be enslaved again.
Global financial meltdown and unjustified bombing and killing around the world have proved that the morality of the western democracies is bankrupted beyond repair, yet you are still boasting façade of its “open system of knowledge and diplomacy.” Hypocrisy is no longer a fitting word to describe their hypocrisy; Law of the jungle is what the western democracies practice.
The West is better to look into the mirror and figure out how to change themselves if they still want rest of the world respect them as a civilized society, and not the animals from the jungle.
Johnny
@Chan Frank says he is Chinese and we shall believe him unless we have an proof stating otherwise. So yeah, we shall believe that Frank is Chinese.
Frank
That is a great honor.
Thank you. Thank you.
Frank
Kimpo:
I agree with you.
There has never been any true mutual respect and trust from this world we live in.
Did westerners ever respect and trust Indians, Australia ab-originals, and blacks?
Did Japanese people ever respect and trust Taiwanese comfort women?
Kimpo
@Frank John Chan has kicked you but you are an very loyal dog. You still lick the Chinese feet. Pakistanis have absolutely no self respect. Perhaps constant gangbang by both China and USA have removed any self-respect from Pakistan. I have an very good suggestion. China shall forget Taiwan and take ALL of the Pakistan under its control. Pakistan has no military and no self respect as we all saw recently in Operation Geronimo.
Come on China, Pakistan has its leg spread for you, penetrate her! This way you will become an more influential regional power and will not require Taiwan as you will have more than enough land. It an Deal, right?
Frank
You are NOT an East Asian. You are an East Indian. Right?
Because real Taiwanese will not care much about India or Pakistan.
Kimpo
@Frank I really dont give a crap about them but you are insulting women of Taiwan by calling them comfort women so I will respond in language lapdogs like you understand.
Frank
Comfort woman is a Japanese invention.
It was Japanese that raped and insulted Taiwanese woman.
The only problem is that children of the Taiwanese comfort women are not sympathetic to their mothers. They are actually trying to be like their Japanese fathers.
What a tragedy !!!
swags 008
cmon.guys we are talking busines here.lets talk business,right.india and america could have signed the deal but we had asked for a complete fighter with the best technological aspects present.while americans have failed to deliver us with the aesa radar it left us with no other choise to give the deal to the european countries.the americans kept being persistent about the memorandum while we chose not to encourage that we had a deal for fighters not any other memorandum.
ZAIN
Every 1 in world who wil criticise india indians wil think its a pakistani lol wht a fear they have rofl