A South Korean Navy lieutenant approached me after my panel at Tufts University’s Sino-American Seminar earlier this month, at which I gave a rundown on the US force posture in Asia. His question: will China keep inveighing against US military operations in the Yellow Sea should tensions between North and South Korea subside? My answer: yes. Chinese aims at sea transcend any immediate contingency, on the Korean Peninsula or elsewhere in the Yellow, East China, or South China seas. Beijing is trying to establish a track record for opposing military activities it deems objectionable, in hopes that foreign navies will cease such activities along the Chinese maritime periphery.
This isn’t solely a legal question. Commentary on Chinese aspirations in the ‘near seas’ typically dwells on the legal dimension, and understandably so. Many seafaring states fear that Beijing wants to turn its exclusive economic zone into sovereign waters, in effect rewriting the rules of the international system to grant China a maritime preserve along its coastlines. Freedom of navigation would suffer. Such efforts to reinterpret the law of the sea certainly bear watching—and, if they persist, challenging—in the name of freedom of the seas. Surveillance, aircraft-carrier flight operations, and similar activities are clearly aboveboard, as Chinese interlocutors grudgingly admit when pressed.
But there is precedent for a rising power claiming special prerogatives in its near seas as a matter of policy, not law per se. Look no further than US history. I refer of course to the Monroe Doctrine, the 1823 policy statement by which the United States forbade European empires to reassert control of newly independent Latin American states, either direct or indirect. When President James Monroe and Secretary of State John Quincy Adams announced their hands-off policy, the United States had little capacity to make good on it. Only a handful of frigates and lesser craft comprised the US Navy. But over time, as US national power surged, Washington built a navy strong enough to enforce the doctrine.
No European statesman accepted the Monroe Doctrine as law—Otto von Bismarck dismissed it as ‘insolent dogma,’ while Lord Salisbury reminded Washington that international law is not made through unilateral fiat—but Europeans ultimately had to concede that a well-armed, locally dominant United States could get its way in the New World. Realities of power prevailed. Why construct pricey fleets to challenge the United States in its own backyard? Weak powers, then, can lay down principles. And when they become strong, they can demand that others abide by these principles, agree with them or not. ‘The Monroe Doctrine is as strong as the United States Navy, and no stronger,’ vouched President Theodore Roosevelt in 1908.
True enough. Even Great Britain, which ruled the waves, ultimately withdrew its North American fleet to home waters, grudgingly acquiescing in local US supremacy. And over time—if consistently upheld by the government that declared it, and if no one mounts serious opposition to it—a policy like the Monroe Doctrine can acquire a kind of quasi-legal standing. Indeed, at the Paris Peace Conference that formally terminated World War I, US delegates managed to incorporate the doctrine into the League of Nations Covenant. Article 21 of the Covenant declares that ‘Nothing in this Covenant shall be deemed to affect the validity of international engagements, such as treaties of arbitration or regional understandings like the Monroe Doctrine, for securing the maintenance of peace.’
Declining to challenge a unilateral policy, then, is tantamount to consenting to it. Which brings us back to China. China appears to be playing the role of the United States sometime in the nineteenth century, when Washington insisted on its hands-off policy but had not yet built a navy strong enough to enforce it. Similarly, by consistently lodging complaints about US Navy aircraft-carrier deployments to the Yellow Sea or maritime surveillance in the South China Sea, Beijing is establishing a track record of objecting to military activities in the near seas. As Chinese sea power matures, the Chinese leadership may assume a more forceful stance, just as the United States did by the 1890s.
Does this add up to a Chinese Monroe Doctrine for maritime Asia? Not necessarily. But if its build-up of maritime strength—manifest in a powerful fleet supported by shore-based aircraft and missiles—bears fruit, China may ultimately get its way in the near seas. And it may do so even without carrying the day in legal forums. Consequently, the United States and fellow seafaring states like Japan and South Korea must keep conducting lawful operations in the near seas while voicing opposition to Chinese policy. Otherwise they may appear to acquiesce in Chinese primacy in these waters.
James Holmes is an associate professor of strategy at the US Naval War College. The views voiced here are his alone.








JD
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.Might is Right and like any rising Power in the past the rising Powers of the present will also try to get the maximum for themselves till one fine day dust they will become like the powrs of past.
Johnny
@JD I don’t agree with such generalization of current world scenario. I don’t think China can be compared in any way to USA. We will field 3000 fighters out of which 1000 stealth fighters against China’s puny 1000 fighters and only 50 stealth fighters.
Now one can argue that China can use AEW&C to counter it. Wrong! China has a total of 5 AEW&C which I needn’t say is abysmally small number. Heck even Saudi Arab has 6 AEW&Cs. Now compare this to almost 80 AEW&C of USA not to mention the huge lead US has in tech and avionics.
Naval comparison is even more against China as their navy is, and even Chinese will admit it, nowhere near US in any way or aspect.
So USA is here to stay and with its allies, to grow stronger in the future.
Grant
The U.K actually tacitly agreed to the Monroe doctrine if I recall correctly. Additionally the U.S seems to be moving away from that theory if our reaction to Russia’s naval visit to Latin America a few years ago is anything to go by.
Leonard R.
Good article.
It’s not surprising at all that a South Korean would ask this.
Geography is destiny. And if we look at a map, we can see South
Korea’s destiny is to be a vassal state of China, as it has been
historically.
If geography isn’t enough, consider this:
South Korea’s number one trading partner is China. The US is ranked around #7.
So you have geography & money working against the US here. Throw in linguistic
and cultural history and we understand China is holding a Flush.
So the US must flush its relations with Taiwan, South Korea and China.
And it should prepare for our war with the PRC to enter the hot phase – soon.
The US should launch cyber-attacks against the PRC, as China has launched against it.
It should develop every new weapons’ system with an eye toward Beijing.
It should get out of Afghanistan and use those resources against China.
It should sail now – more than ever – in China’s U-Shaped claim in the
East Sea (South China Sea).
All military-to-military exchanges shoiuld stop with the PRC.
Trump’s 25% tariff should immediately be put in place.
China should be moved to column 2 of the Harmonized Schedule of Tariffs.
And if attacked by North Korea, the US should retaliate against both
Pyongyang and Beijing. It should flatten both countries.
Frank
All Chinese need to read this comments.
If you are not building enough nukes, your cities will be flattened.
Leonard R.
Yes. If North Korea attacks the US, the US should destroy NK and the PRC.
I doubt American leaders are currently smart enough to see through the stupid sock puppet show Beijing and Pyongyang have been putting on for decades.
But one day — it will happen. Theodore Roosevelt said,
“The American people are slow to wrath, but when their wrath is once kindled it burns like a consuming flame.”.
The US is waking up. It took Pearl Harbor last time. I hope that will
not be necessary in our time.
But war is already here.
Frank
If China does not increase millitary spendings, Chinese people will be killed.
Leonard R.
This is indeed an troubling moment for USA and if we are threatened by N.Korea we shall launch punitive strike on PRC and NK to show them what we stand for.
Yang Zi- I agree with leonard the America is going to protect its interest with force. We shall respond by quadrupling the spending of our military and take down the power struggle in our favor. The CCP leadership is being weak and it shall wake up to protect the rights of China in 21st century.
yang zi
haha, very funny Leonard.
My suggestion is for China to spend 2.5% of GDP on military. and better yet, to consititutionalize it so it never exceeds that. this will put the military spending at 150B annually. this is enough to have a credible strategic force and win a war around China.
John Chan
USA is thousands miles away from Asia and on the other side of the Pacific Ocean and it is not a nation of Asia, why can’t USA let Asians look after Asians’ business? What is the benefit for the USA to risk its neck for something that has nothing to do with it?
Why is Leonard R. inciting hostility between the nations in Asia for nobody’s benefit, including the US?
China should also establish navy track record in Bay of Bengal around Andaman and Nicobar Islands in order to secure its energy supply route in the long term.
Johnny
@John Chan Said “China should also establish navy track record in Bay of Bengal around Andaman and Nicobar Islands in order to secure its energy supply route in the long term.”
I find it hard to believe someone can be so misinformed about current world situation. Do you honestly think that Indians will let China military to settle up on their land? If that’s possible than perhaps India shall make a base in Hainan and ’secure’ its own interest.
Frank
Indians won’t. Indians politicians will push their navy to take the Islands back.
Indian’s navy knows there is a trap. However, their commanders have no choice but to follow orders.
1962 battle will be repeated on the water.
Johnny
@Frank Hahaha it is very amusing to see your wishful thinking and hatred towards your neighbors. Also another thing that I find funny is how you guys accuse US of ‘living in cold war mentality’ but always mention half century old war! So who is living in cold war mentality?
Since you have mentioned China-India ‘war’ of 1962 I found it very strange that in that ‘war’ India lost 1300 soldiers while China lost 700 soldiers. Though on the other hand the man who started war the ‘GREAT’ leader of China MaoTseTung killed 45 million (!!!!!) Chinese by starving in the name of great leap!
Biggest enemy of China are its dictators who kill millions of their own just for their whims and fancies.
Frank
You forget China also captured tens of thousands of Indian solders.
Indians avoided being killed by surrendering very quickly and run away from their positions as soon as possible.
The battle of Nicobar will be fought the same way. Indians will surrender as soon as Chinese troops are landed on Car Nicobar.
China should not attack Andaman. If India Navy is not responding to the attack of Car Nicobar, then our navy can start siege of Port Blair. And let those cacophonic Indians crying on the radio. Indians are well known for cacophonic behaviors. Put their talent to good use.
Soon, India’s warships will sail into a submarine and anti-ship ballistic missile trap.
Johnny
@Frank So killing some people and capturing others makes up for 45 million Chinese that your dictator killed? You are truly blinded by hatred.
Frank
Indians babies are killed every year in the millions.
Do you care about those poor Indian babies?
Johnny
@Frank So is their govt killing them? No. Whats next, you are going to blame them for disease and accidents too?
Also a simple google search revealed some very interesting data. India’s mortality rate has actually been improving rapidly from 110/1000 in 1980 to 30.15/1000 and is ranked 152 while China improved from 45/1000 in 1980 to 20.25/1000 and is ranked 120.
Between 2000-2009 India improved its mortality rate by 30 while China improved it by only 8 now they are 10 points apart which I think will be bridged in 5 years at most.
Source:(http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=in&v=29 and http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=29&c=ch&l=en)
I answered your question with facts and figures now would you kindly tell me how killing of 45 million Chinese by dictator is justified?
Anon
USA is thousands miles away from Asia and on the other side of the Pacific Ocean and it is not a nation of Asia, why can’t USA let Asians look after Asians’ business? What is the benefit for the USA to risk its neck for something that has nothing to do with it?
Why is Leonard R. inciting hostility between the nations in Asia for nobody’s benefit, including the US?
China should also establish navy track record in Bay of Bengal around Andaman and Nicobar Islands in order to secure its energy supply route in the long term.
China is thousands miles away from the Americas and on the other side of the Pacific Ocean and it is not a nation of the Americas, why can’t China let Americans look after the America’s business? What is the benefit for China to risk its neck for something that has nothing to do with it?
Of course besides that response, we are involved because global trade, including our trade, passes through those waters. We are involved because we have a history of being involved in Asia thats spans more than half the existance of our country, it is neither something new or unexpected. We are involved because it is our duty to prevent greedy territory grabbing powers (like China is currently) from having uncontested reign of Asia.
John
Leonard,
I must say that I disagree with your points. They would not be too helpful for regional relations. Plus, S. Korea does not need to become a vassal state of China’s to survive in the region.
It just needs the current international order to remain the same or improve whereby control of territory is not considered the sole aim of nations.
Though if you told any South Korean, especially anyone in the military that they should just accept thier place as a vassal state of China or the US for that matter, you will really hear it from them.
Leonard R.
You don’t disagree with all of them, do you?
I mean certainly I’m correct about geography, linguistic & cultural history.
Am I not? I am correct about where most of South Korea’s trade revenue comes from and where America falls on that list.
You merely disagree with the conclusions I draw from my premises, which are correct. And I agree with you. War between China and the US would not be helpful
for regional diplomatic relations in that part of the world. But as I see it, whether it is helpful or not — it is coming and soon.
How quickly Americans forget that South Korea just got rid of an anti-American leader. More such leaders will come. The US has protected Korea since 1953, at its own expense. And human nature teaches us, no good deed goes unpunished.
I like what Trump says about Korea.
“Are they paying us? Why aren’t they paying us?”
Yang zi
I like leonard! He is a realist and angry. China has a lot of angry youth.
This is why china should develop a strategic force quickly, so it can flatten a country that will flatten china.
MAD doctrine has it’s roots in primates humans.
Trump is nice, Koran should pay. South Koran is getting paid by china with a huge trade gap, in the meanti
e,it is getting a free security guard.
America’s pride is getting in it’s way. People like Leonard is not aware that American elite is against his interests.
Leonard R.
Are Chinese youth angry Yang zi?
I did not know that. The youth I see don’t seem angry.
They are too busy shopping, chatting on cell phones and
eating at McDonalds.
But I believe you. Maybe they have a good reason to be angry.
“My father is Li Gang!”
Johnny
@Leonard I agree with Yangzi that Chinese youth are angry BUT I believe they are angry on the dictatorial regime of CPC and all atrocities committed by CPC. They are aware of the changes of the world and will free the China one day.
Frank
When Chinese youth learned about Indian’s evil intent to flatten China’s cities, the anger will be towards India.
Johnny
@Frank OR when they hear how many millions of their brothers/sisters/children have been killed by CPC dictators and truth is being hidden by controlled media they will dethrone the dictators and China will emerge as an responsible nation with leaders elected through democracy and thus common men and they will all be treated equally and fairly. Equality and human rights for all.
Frank
I agree with you.
In front of a rifle, all men are equal.
If Indians poor need equality, they need rifles.
Embargo
Holmes makes an insightful comparison over the similarities of the Chinese rise in the 21st century with America’s rise in the 19th.
Hopefully Johnny and John Chan will keep this in mind as they (inevitably), have a nationalist pro-American vs pro-China pissing contest over who’s a CIA/PRC agent in the commentary section.
PeterDownUnder
Really nice read.
The destiny of all periphery states along China we can only guess now and witness as it unfolds in our life time.
The comparison to 20th century America is very interesting. As America acted to surpass Britain in the century of the US, perhaps China is acting similarly to surpass the US in the century of China.
Also shows that Chinese policy makers are diligent students of history imo.
Grant
People keep saying that* and I have to say I’ve seen incredibly little evidence that China’s leaders somehow have a better ability to craft better plans from the study of history than anyone else in the world. If that were so then the past century and a half make very little sense. It seems more likely that the Chinese government has just gotten better at hiding problems.
*Along with the idea that Chinese leaders somehow plan a century in advance. How does new tensions with India and claiming all of the South China Sea somehow fit in with geopolitical events one hundred years from now?
Johnny
@Grant I agree with you but you are ignoring one basic point the CPC is based on the belief that they are ‘Superior’ than common Chinese. They always make statements stating that Chinese people ‘need’ censor and controlled media. They think that they know better and to enforce these forced laws they spread the misconception that they are superior than others.
Gustav
It was interesting to read that China is emulating USA yet again while still calling USA an imperialistic aggressor! Ah, the irony!
On a more serious note, I don’t think that situation is same as in Monroe’s time. What’s the difference you say? Well there were two devastating World wars which reduced a mighty Great Britain to less than Great power it is now and tied whole europe into massive wars which drastically reduced their power and surprisingly USA gained more than it lost in these wars. USA was, I dare say, pretty damn lucky to come stronger while all others lost power. Writer should have stated the matter with world wars in the view as just stating Effect without giving Cause is only half the truth.
guest
Good article!
John Chan
USA managed to realize its Monroe Doctrine peacefully because its challengers were separated by two oceans. It is harder for China to realize its Monroe Doctrine because its challengers are nearby neighbours.
As China’s means to defend its sovereignty grows, the pressure to settle dispute areas will grows too; with the US presence in Asia, the peaceful solution to settle the disputes areas as the US realized its Monroe Doctrine is very unlikely.
China, of course, will use all means to realize its Monroe Doctrine with minimum cost, but it would be interesting to see an analysis on the following questions:
1. What will be the level of physical intensity required to establish a baseline for settling the disputes, such as ramming at marine enforcement level, shooting at squadron level, etc.?
2. Will the US venture into such violent activities when China and the challenger are in the process of establishing that baseline?
3. Which nation will volunteer to be the first one to challenge China in the establishment of that baseline?
Ly Tran Le Nguyen
Come down south again, John Chan, and you will learn who has repeatedly taught China not to be so cocky.
China has no Monroe Doctrine. China only needs to smash and grab and steal all the natural resources it can in order to feed and put its young population to work.
When the U.S. and E.U. put a freeze on importing from China, how long do you think the Chinese economy will last?
When the U.S. and other nations stop selling agricultural and raw materials to China, when do you think mass starvation will begin?
Frank
We can buy from Vietnam.
Johnny
@Frank “We will buy from Vietnam”
Ahahaha Isn’t it the same Vietnam that you Chinese called ‘Biggest bully in the world’ among other flaming things?
John Chan said “people in Vietnam like you when they cannot win by evidence then resort to fabricating facts, distorting words, twisting truth and calling names, then it is real sad, Vietnam has to be dealt with the only way they understand.”
So you guys are going to use the same ‘bully and lying’Vietnam as you exit strategy? What happened to teaching Vietnam a lesson? LOL
JD
Call a guy from Vietnam,Korea or other Far Eastern countries a chinese,he will take offence but every Pakistani and Bangladeshi introduce themselves as Indian in USA.Wonder why?
Johnny
@JD I agree and perhaps this file will make it clear why good people of South-China sea are offended to be called Chinese.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/South_China_Sea/pdf.pdf
This will give a clear view of absurd claims of China, how China claims are completely stupid once you even take a simple look at map and list of conflicts.
China seems to have forgotten that its neighbors are going to be major players in future. Vietnam and Malaysia especially are going to grow rapidly and China is playing with fire by poking them with pointy stick.
yang zi
Chinese Monroe Doctrine ?
interesting but far fetched.
Don’t think about others in your own shoe. China only want to stop provocative military activities against itself, like the frequent spy plane missions. I don’t know how frequent it is, but it is frequent enough to be provocative.
Of course, China has no ability to stop it now, but the insult will continue to flame the Chinese nationalism.
flying spy missions so often is a short sighted move. US pacific command may feel good, but it is in the end not a decent behavior and have long term consequences.
Reason
The US and Russia flew close spy missions on each other throughout the Cold War… why should China be treated differently…???
Even now, Russia flies TU-95s right up to British Airpsace which are intercepted by RAF Typhoons…
That’s just the way things work in the ‘Grown-up’ world…
yang zi
China doesn’t want to fly spy plane near US.
also, in a grown up world, people should not cry foul when China flew a plane 70 miles from Diaoyu island, that’s even a Chinese island occupied by Japan.
Publius
I think it’s fairly obvious that Mr. Holmes didn’t mean “a Chinese Monroe Doctrine” in the sense that their ideas are similar to the doctrine itself, but that it is their methods of applying it that are the same; by simply asserting it now with so much hot air, then backing it up with force in a few decades. By that time, their hot air has become precedent and their force legitimate. It makes for an interesting historical parallel to another emergent naval power and how similar techniques must adapt to their different historical and geographical setting.
Meanwhile the comments, as usual, leap to conclusions. For one, there are those declaring that it is precedent already, and that China is merely defending its eternal, sovereign rights, others meaninglessly pointing out the obvious differences in the letter of the Monroe Doctrine vs. China’s situation. There are others who gleefully jump to the conclusion that there is an impending war/the vassalization of smaller East Asian nations. This logic is flawed on both counts. “Shared heritage” didn’t get Japan very far in terms of hearts & minds when they colonized Korea in the early 1900s… I doubt it would work for China either, much less without military force. The arguments about trade are questionable; by that logic, the United States should have gained a number of vassals around the world by now (though with such a tenuous grasp of international politics, Leonard probably believes it already has). Neither the US or China would gain anything by a war; if North Korea launched a full-on strike–beyond torpedoing a ship or shelling an island–China would almost certainly abandon their ally. At this point it is worth it to prop them up in the hope that internal regime change will improve things and prevent the massive influx of refugees into China. That influx, however, is far preferable to a war with the single most powerful country the world has ever known, plus its allies– basically encompassing the entire developed world (which together forms pretty much China’s entire export economy), minus Russia (which hardly counts anymore).
Step down the crazy rhetoric, people. It was an interesting article on diplomatic strategy, and how to back it up with eventual force so that it seems you’re not establishing a doctrine (control over EEZ/South America) by force, but simply enforcing legitimate international “understanding.” No need to toot any nationalist horns or declare impending war.
Reason
The British and US Navies were able to co-exist because they were two democracies that could predict each others intentions through open politics.
It wasn’t until the Washington Naval Conference in 1921 that Britain and US began to ally with each other. Prior to this, Britain was closer to Japan than the US. In fact in this conference, Japan was upset that Britain withdrew its support and allied with the US.
In the early days of the Monroe Doctrine, the Royal Navy could have easily sunk the US navy but it didn’t serve its purpose to do so.
If you don’t think that the Royal Navy would have done it if it served its purpose, then go read about the sinking of the French Navy in Mers-el-Kébir in WW2
Just like today… the US navy doesn’t go around sinking any capable navies it doesn’t like. It’s in its interest to have responsible, allies, which it garners through cooperation. This makes it stronger.. not weaker… just like the Royal Navy of the 19thC.
The problem in the seas around China is that China, as the revisionist power, doesn’t act like a potential future ally to the US, the status quo power…. so it makes conflict much, much greater.
Even in the gulf of Aden, the PLAN refuses to come under the wing of the US led operation there. Whether the US should be the natural leader is really not an issue, seeing it has the most ships and at least one super carrier there at anyone time
China’s navy refuses a great opportunity to work with the other capable navies of the world in the Gulf and goes it alone… it could learn heaps.. but instead just compounds it’s own isolation and mistrust that surrounds its new navy.
A Chinese Monroe is not going to happen in Asia – the US navy wont allow it. China can spit its dummy… but that’s the way it works…
Imperial Germany wanted to rule the waves and was scuppered by the Royal Navy
Imperial Japan wanted to control Asia and was sunk by the US navy
China as an historical land-based power really has very little chance of developing a credible navy that can not only protect its oil interests but also over-turn the partnership of US/Japan/Australia and even the Royal Navy in Asia.
With virtually no real mine sweeping ability…. a handful of mine laying subs and planes could cripple the Chinese navy in days by mining it’s ports and preventing the ships from leaving or docking…. then what is the PLAN going to do…? Go to it’s Chinese built ports in Fiji or Pakistan???
Challenger
That’s even if the Chinese navy dared to leave port in a high tension crisis…
Take the Falklands War for instance… The Argentinean Aircraft carrier, Veinticinco de Mayo quickly scurried into port and never saw action for the entire war because it knew full well that there were British subs just waiting to sink it if ti dared engage.
Just cus you have the kit… doesn’t mean it gets used in a useful way that influences the outcome of a conflict
The Argentinean Navy was fighting a “local” war and still couldn’t make it count. I find it really hard to believe that a future Chinese navy would fair any better.
In a conflict situation most the the Chinese Navy will sink or be confined to port as it will have the three deadliest submarine forces hunting it…
US/Japan and UK…
John Chan
China is building up its navy and air force to defend its sovereignty and to counter act the hostile containment led by the imperialist US and its lackeys.
The way Reason laid out his argument only reflects the capability and mindset of Indian navy, which is conservative, lack of imagination, and stuffed with low-tech equipment. The hysteria response of USA and its lackeys to China’s unconfirmed ASBM, AIP submarine, and J-20 makes one wonder the real capability of the US and its lackeys’ navy and air force.
Indeed USA navy has a difficult decision to make, would it gamble all its capital ships and the world hegemony to crash a potential challenger, or would it enjoy its current prestige as long as possible, and see its advantage gradually eroded by China’s military buildup?
Reason made a fatal mistake in military planning; he assumes “past success guarantees future result” which inevitably leads to defeat. He made it worse; he counted someone else’s (Royal Navy) success as US navy’s success, only warlord and impotent military adopt such practice to boast up their inflated confidence.
Johnny
@John Chan You and Frank sound way too similar and I think are posted by same guy. I mean you have same grammar, same blind hatred and you always support each other and when you lose argument Frank derails the discussion by posting flaming comments and racist remarks.
Here is another proof-
(From the comments of Is China backings insurgents in India?’ article’s comment page)
Frank
March 25, 2011 at 12:07 am
I think this article is from Indian editor.
They selectively remove my comments also.
John Chan
March 25, 2011 at 12:08 pm
@Frank, this site is an anti-China site, they just want some Chinese bloggers around as decor. It is a long, hard and uphill battle to fight the anti-China machinery; their arsenal to smear and discredit is formidable.
How can they both be saying basically same thing in response to each other and How can John Chan replied WITHIN 1 minute of Franks comment! I mean think about it Frank posted comment, John Chan loded page at exact moment and within one minute he read article, he read all comments, he reads Franks comment, He agrees and types his own comment and Sends. How can all this happen in 1 minute? Even if you had read article before there is no way one can read the exact comment at exact moment and reply within seconds. Too many coincidence? And that too when they both post same things? I think the truth is clear to us all.
John Chan
Actually that isn’t right I actually work for networking branch. Its just my hobby.
Frank
We shall retaliate in only way we could. China shall provide WW-II weapons to freedom fighters to secure its people.
Frank
Indians have a lot of imaginations.
The editor release all comments made over night (Australia time) at the same time.
John Chan
@Johnny, I and Frank are not the same person, we probably not even live in the same continent. The example you quoted is my support to Frank’s remark. Johnny, trust me, I do not approve those multiple positing underhand tricks, definitely I will not use it myself, there is such a thing called integrity you know. As smart as you are, you should know the effect of probability, it is way more effective to protest as many anti-China articles as possible than typing the same protest on the same article multiple times.
The time stamp is definitely a problem with the site, that particular posting should be a least way more than a minute apart. Do you really believe there are people making a living by collecting 50¢ each time they post? That is a smear tactic used by the anti-China bloggers when they can’t win arguments.
Johnny, you only looked at dark side of the comparison; the bright side of the comparison is that our comments must be representative of Chinese point of view on issues; therefore we post similar comments against similar bias points on China. In terms of marketing, our comments give you a good and accurate input regarding Chinese point of view on the world events; if the West and its allies take our views and correct their bias views and misbehave for the sake of peace and prosperity of the world; then we really have a good communications between different people on this site, and this site should be awarded Nobel Peace prize. This is Internet all about, don’t you agree?
Johnny
@JohnChan I really don’t know what the hell is going on but I didn’t wrote that comment.
Let me say it again- I never posted that comment. I really don’t know what to say as it seems like someone is having fun with us. Whoever it is let me tell you- IT IS NOT FUNNY.
Reason
@John Chan
You stated “would it gamble all its capital ships and the world hegemony to crash a potential challenger.”
My dear John, you really need to spend sometime reading more history of the world and not just Chinese propaganda history.
In WW2 the US LOST 10 Aircraft Carriers.. so it is an absolute FACT that the US would ‘gamble’ losing ships to serve its ends. The US navy is not a show piece navy. every ship is designed to fight… and be lost if necessary. I absolutely guarantee you that the US will continue to put aircraft carriers in harms way. These ships are not showboats. The US is NOT adverse to losing 1, 2 -10 carriers. Go read your history. Battle of Midway, Battle of Philippines Sea, Guam, Saipan, Okinawa, Saipan, Truk… the list just goes on and on…. it’s no accident that the US is in the Pacific, it fought tooth and nail for it.
This is in direct contrast to the history of Chinese army which has a long a distinguished history of NOT committing premier forces to the battle, in case they’re lost… If you don’t believe me, go read about China’s X&Y force in WW2 … yes, that global war that the CCP didn’t even turn up to.
Go read about why a handful of British troops could march on Beijing in 1860… yup, because the Chinese wouldn’t commit to the fight, same in 1895 Sino/japanese war. The Chinese army gave up a perfectly defendable port and barracks without a fight to the shock of the whole world……. same in 1900, same when Japanese invaded Manchuria, same with Chairmen Mao, who wiled away the time in Ya’nan writing about war, while the lion share of the fighting was done by the KMT, which was supported by the US and Britain.
Go read about Operation Ichigo in WW@, where the allies pleaded with the best Chinese troops to commit to the fight… but they never did.. as usual fighting a running retreat instead.
All these failed operations are to do with Chinese troops being unsupported by their superiors, who refuse to commit their best troops and kit to the fight… this is endemic in Chinese culture of war.
I really think you have a very shallow understanding of what went on in WW2 and especially the naval Battles for the Pacific. Epic battles on which China’s navy has never, never seen the likes of….
I have read a lot of Chinese history and I can find NO comparison to such battles as Iwo Jima… and this was just one island in a long list of all out war that the US and Japan fought.
I would bet my back teeth that in the same circumstances the Chinese army would have capitulated after a day of shelling on Iwo Jima.
So… you can’t dismiss these EPIC confrontations and HYPE up the new PLA-Navy (PLAN) that has NO experience in war. Even to this day the PLAN’s capitol ships, your Sovereign-class destroyers, have Russian advisors on… cus the PLAN has no direct experience dealing with an enemy at see. Saying that, neither do the Russians have much naval combat expereince, so they aint gonna help that much when the shit hits the fan… What I can guarantee you is, if the PLAN does get into a scrap with the US Navy the Russian advisors wont be on the ships… they’ll be safety on shore…
You might make me out as anti Chinese but I’m not…
I’m all for a Chinese Navy… I think China should be a strong country… but get real here… the PLAN is a new navy, with no experience of any kind of modern warfare. It has no strength in depth, either in man power or kit, it has fatal logistical problems, inherent compatibility problems… huge gaps in its strategy, ie, no mine sweeping, little air cover….
It’s a best a formidable coastal navy.. and it will remain that way until it over states its hand and gets sunk by the US navy
Frank
1895 Sino/japanese war, Chinese committed all warships at a navy battle.
Liu Gong Fort was defended. The commanding officer committed suicide for losing the port.
Johnny
@Frank I normally don’t like you because of your ‘Send terrorist and Guns’ stance but let me tell you that ‘Frank and Chan are one’ comment wasn’t written by me. I do think that you are a troll though
Frank
I am glad you think of me.
I never give a thought of you. You are nothing but a penny a dozen Indian.
Frank
Indians like to imitating their white masters.
Johnny:
You are not imitating Charlie Sheen. Are you?
Reason
Actually…….In the Sino/Japanese War the Chinese and Japanese fleets initially engaged… even though the fleets were fairly evenly matched… the J-fleet definitely got the best of the C-fleet, it’s a myth that the C-fleet was caught unawares as it was unloading troops… a number of Chinese capitol ships, which were on the flanks rather than is close formation fled to Port Arthur rather than engage… where they stayed for the remainder of the conflict and were scuttled and sunk by the Japanese once the entire port, town and barracks surrendered.
The entire world, couldn’t believe that the Qing gave up Port Arthur so quickly without a fight. An entire, brand new, modern military port fell in two just days as all the military commanders left the civilian population to be massacred by the Japanese…
Once again, the Chinese military saves itself and leaves vulnerable populations to the mercy of a foreign army…
It’s endemic…. rather than investing in new weapons, the PLA should invest in training that doesn’t encourage RUNNING AWAY as a thing to do.
It’s engrained in the entire military culture… even China’s premier War Story, the Long March, is basically a disorganized retreat.
Look at the cultural text – in Outlaws of the Marsh, the main protagonists routinely run away if they feel they can’t win the fight…
This concept of “Saving yourself for a fight you can win another day” may work in Chinese antiquity, but when it comes up against a committed, modern force, like the Japanese, that are going to WIN OR DIE on that same day it comes undone. This is an inherent problem, with examples in history too many too list.
I’ll bet you… in a full on engagement the PLAN’s five Sovereigny class destroyers wont even leave port… because some ass hole PLAN Admiral will be too scared to commit them to the fight in case they get sunk and he gets blamed….
Reason
Let me just qualify a bit more…
I don’t doubt the average Chinese soldiers ability to fight hard and die for his country once engaged…
The inherent problem is the commanders in the flanks that wont commit forces to the fight to defend those who are already engaged…
Time and time again, modern Chinese armies are let down by the their reserve troops and so lose any momentum they gain against highly motivated, smaller armies, such as the British or Japanese
Frank
PLA commanders never run.
They will fight to the death.
Chinese are not Indians.
John Chan
@Reason and Challenger, your ranting is losing reasoning, incoherent and not addressing the issues posted in the article. Your puffing even cannot make Pentagon share your ego; Pentagon is way more practical and cautious, that’s why the US navy rather enjoys their current prestige as long as possible and sees it advantage gradually eroded by China’s military buildup.
Reason and Challenger, as I said you were making the same fatal mistake that WWII US generalissimo made in Korean War, that is assuming “past success guarantees future result.” Arrogance inevitably leads to defeat, that was the cause that generalissimo brought biggest disgrace to the US, a longest and saddest retreat in the US military history.
Reason and Challenger, your thinking is rather out of date and lack of imagination, because your mental capacity remains in the era of WWII warfare, and unfit to deal the complex situation in South China Sea as well as in East China Sea.
China takes the military might possessed by the US and its lackeys very seriously, that’s why China adopts asymmetric strategy to neutralize USA’s might, so China can contain the US and its lackeys in a way you cannot image. As the article said China’s objective is to get its way in the near seas, and make the US, Japan and SK appear to acquiesce in Chinese primacy in these waters.
Reason
@John Chan
Funny how you can totally disregard ‘other countries credible histories’ as inconsequential and irrelevant but as a Chinese person see you own history as ultimately significant.
Over the past two hundred years the Chinese army/navy has no pedigree in modern warfare, for all the reasons I have stated…. ignore them if you will.
As far a asymmetric warfare goes… again, you should go and read your history books… asymmetric warfare is not sure way to win and often leads to disaster as the protagonists over estimate their abilities.
Look at the most recent asymmetric wars.
China vs Japan 1895 – China was seen as favourite, Japan won an asymmetric war
Russia vs Japan 1904 – Russia was seen as favourite, Japan won an asymmetric war
US vs Japan 1941- US was favourite, US won
Israel vs Egypt 1972- Israel seen as favourite, Egypt secured limited aims
UK vs Argentina, 1982 UK favourite, UK Won
First Gulf War 1991 – US was favourite, US won
Kosovo 1999 – US was favourite, US won
Second Gulf War 2003 – US was favourite, US won
So, looking at history… unless you’re Japanese, I wouldn’t consider an asymmetric war and even then they lost to the US.
This Asymmetric Warfare nonsense cooked up by the PLA generals is China’s biggest liability in its ‘peaceful rise’
Reason
oh… I forgot China vs Vietnam
China seen as favourite, Vietnam won….
Reason
DuH… I forgot China vs the UN in Korea.
UN was favourite, China achieved limited aims. UN Achieved limited aims, as can be seen by the two Koreas.
But the PLA achieved the redoubtable reputation of being the only national army to fight UN mandated troops… NICE… there’s something to be proud of.
Plus, if you go read your world history you’ll find that the ‘human wave’ strategy in Korea led to an utterly catastrophic loss of life of young Chinese men. literally the UN troops couldn’t drop enough bombs on them….. Only an Authoritarian government with no respect for its young people could have put up with such reckless wasting of their military man power for such limited aims – that’s another thing you can be proud of.
Reason
ok… one more point … hahaha
John Chan Said ” Pentagon is way more practical and cautious”
So, putting the 7th Fleet in the Yellow Sea” is you idea of the Pentagon being cautious… cus from where I’m standing, the Pentagon deliberately goes out of its way to show China that it does not take its sovereignty claims of EEZ seriously and will routinely and consistently demonstrate this.
John Chan
Reason, as I said you were making the same fatal mistake that WWII US generalissimo made in Korean War, that is assuming “past success guarantees future result.” Arrogance inevitably leads to defeat, that was the cause that generalissimo brought biggest disgrace to the US, a longest and saddest retreat in the US military history.
Reason
@John Chan
Imperial thinking, WW2 thinking, Cold War Thinking… call it what you will… they all triumphed over a corrupt, authoritarian China….
In any comparison of strengths, form is EVERYTHING… past successes or failures count
Whether it’s horse racing, boxing, football… or even military… form is everything. If you have no form, then your chance of success is minimal.
The Chinese army has no form due to the corrupt, identical way in which China has been run, whether under the Qing, The KMT or the CCP it means that incompetent people are not replaced because they wield too much power. Add onto this the age old habit, in China, of everyone feeling entitled to a little piece of the pie as it passes through their hands means that in combat, Chinese forces are continually let down by those in the rear or in power.
China is as corrupt today as it was during the days of the KMT or the Qing… I know, I live here…..!!!!!! You can’t hide the fact that the entire system is rotten to the core…. and the PLA is at the head of the pack in corruption and self-serving powerful people…
So, no matter how well trained, or motivated the frontline troops are… some fat, over bloated general in the rear, who should have lost his job years ago will help himself as usual and leave those in need high and dry at the critical moment…. it’s happened in EVERY war China has ever fought.. no matter who was in charge..
It happens a million times a day in China to good honest people…. and War amplifies everything
How to over come this problem…?
Get a government that truly does serve the people instead of itself… until China does this, you will go round and round in circles from one corrupt group of thieving cronies to the next…. China’s been doing it for thousands of years…. just cus you’ve got the internet and a few fancy weapons wont cure this fatal problem and make the PLA into a force able to take on the US
Only accountable government, where power bases can’t be consolidated can achieve it – And let’s face it… in your thousands of years of history it’s never been tried, just the same old, tired dynastic authoritarian rule over and over and over and over and over again…
China has had nearly as many internal wars as it has had years – maybe there’s a message there… don’t you think…? maybe the crap China’s leaders spew out about individual Human Rights are not wanted by Chinese is just self-serving shite to keep another corrupt dynasty in power for as long as possible…
I would love to see a powerful, democratic China where every citizen feels happy and safe and doesn’t fear those in power….. where officials are held accountable and don’t feel like its their right to rob from the masses… cus this IS THE REAL China, behind all the headlines about Military spending, GDP J20s and G20s… the average Chinese citizen lives in fear of falling foul of someone who is more powerful than them and losing everything…
Go figure…
No one on this site is anti Chinese – but anti authoritarian government, that steals, robs and kills their people in the name of the people – yah, there’s plenty of those people around…
John Chan
I just wondered who actually is going round and round the circle doing the jobs of killing and bombing you so despised in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia, Serbia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and now in Libya in the name of democracy and human rights. Who is making regime changes for the greasy money for their big corporations in Nicaragua, Colombia, Panama, etc.?
I just wondered whose citizens are so mindless greedy and their ruthless and reckless gambling brought the whole world into financial meltdown which caused millions upon millions of people lost jobs, and their families got destroyed, the destruction can match WWII; and yet they carried out the destruction in the name of free trade, open market, globalization, democracy and human rights.
It is simple disgusting.
Leonard R
Reason makes some interesting and correct points about the US and UK relations. The US in it’s early days was much closer to France. Andrew Jackson had a fierce hatred of the British.
China was a naval power in the past though, most recently in the late-Yuan and early Ming dynasties. But then as now, its fleet was largely commercial. The military part was secondary.
I personally don’t know what it’s naval abilities are today. But I have serious doubts about its c of c discipline.
Frank
Don’t worry. You will see a powerful Chinese Navy in 2020.
I hope you will live to that day.
George Wong
So Leonard says the US should flatten bothe NK and China if attacked. He ,of course,knows these two countries aint naive and mad to attack the US .I know the US will prevail in any war with China. The problem is the price.
During the 50s up to the early 21 st century,the US could have flatten both countries with only a flea bite.I am afraid although the US will prevail this time ,the price will be unacceptable to the US. That’s why during the 1996 Taiwan crisis the US could have egged Chen Su bian to declare independence.
Fortunately saner counsel prevail.The price for any US victory over China will be going up until the US will realize it ’s better to be friends than enemies. The PLA aint taking things for granted and will ensure the Chinese have enough power to make sure the US thinks twice before attacking China.
Stefan Stackhouse
Something I don’t see US diplomats doing in public pronouncements, but should, is emphasizing more clearly that the US naval presence in the East & South China seas is not about China, it is about our assertion of the freedom of the seas – something that has been fundamental US policy for two centuries, and is not restricted to any one place.
John
Thats a good point Stefan, and its not just the US who benefits from the international laws of the sea. Many small countries actually benefit from having set rules and expectations that they can understand and follow.
If the world reverts to a militaristic might makes right environment, there would be many more problems for all. The fact that the use of military might by the US doesn’t win it any favors shows that most nations dont consider it a viable system for global relations.
Its suprising that the Chinese military seems to be pushing that issue in the South China Sea, considering that if the US really used its might in the region, then China would find itself in a problematic position.
Leonard R.
The Monroe Doctrine analogy is not completely accurate. James Monroe did not want European powers to COLONIZE the Western Hemisphere. He did not tell them their navies must ask for permission before sailing there. He was not that stupid or that arrogant.
But that is what the PRC is doing. It is telling the US Seventh Fleet the South China Sea belongs to China and the United States can’t sail there without Chinese permission.
That is stupid. It is arrogant. It demonstrates an astonishing ignorance of both geography and history. And it will start a war.
And you can put that in your China Construction Bank Account, baby.
Reason
here, here…
Johnny
@Leonard Good point. Another good point is from @Gustav who mentions that World Wars were a major and unique factor in USA dominance and @John that China shall not make south-china sea a battlefield for landgrab.
I agree we need to tackle Chinese threat and a better way is to have a responsible govt in China and its allies. We achieved a major milestone today with removal of military rule from China’s all weather friend “Burma” (aka Myanmar). Remember Burma became China’s friend only after military coupe’ and now with military junta (mostly) out of equation we can restore Burma to become a democratic country. We don’t necessarily need to trade pieces if we can simply isolate and checkmate.
John Chan
China only stated the facts, without stating the facts; those squatters can steal those islands and can rob those resources in South China Sea with the misconception that it is OK.
USA is thousands miles away from South China Sea, on the side of the Pacific Ocean. USA is not a nation of Asia, why is USA making Asia a pig’s breakfast, and destroying Asia’s peace and prosperity.
Monroe did not let other European share USA’s ill-gotten land from the native American, why does the US think it is OK to break Monroe principle itself on other peoples’ turf? What a screwed up mind.
Johnny
@John Chan Dear Chan, Don’t you think calling nations bordering south-China sea thief and robbers is a bit extreme? Who gave China the authority to declare boundaries of other nations null and void? SIf thats OK then shouldn’t other nations declare China’s boundary null and void too? Would you like if USA claimed Beijing? Would you gladly accept it just like you routinely ask other nations to accept China’s landgrab?
John Chan
@Johnny, China only claims what belongs to her. The West and its imperial lackeys tried many times to do exactly what you are suggesting, but they have failed and got kicked out. I guarantee those aggressors will try again if they can.
Squatters either can leave peacefully by themselves, or be evicted by law enforcer. Brits are an example of squatter leaving America peacefully after taking Monroe’s not so polite advice. Brits must be very dismayed by the lack of gentleman manner of the uneducated Irish colonist.
Johnny, if you cannot look from China point view, and insist on your specious imperialistic rhetoric, you better just state your rhetoric, then move on. Because none of us have any mean to affect what those governments are going to do. This is a site for people to present different opinions due to their different background and experience, not a battleground to win ideology war.
Your disruptive behave is turning people off, and make you imperialistic rhetoric less effective.
Johnny
@JohnChan Ofcourse buddy I am the one who is trying to grab land of countries in South-China sea, I am the one who posts shit about those countries who border China and unilaterally call their borders ‘illegal’ and I am the one who call them squatter, bullies, thief, robber etc. Oh wait I am not the one who said that You are the one who posted that stuff. Very well, Go ahead and blame me anyways.
Frank
You are the ones regards the human garbage Subhas Chandra Bose as your hero.
You kiss up to your white masters and mean to the people who you think are lesser powerful. That includes your poor Indian countrymen.
You wiggle your tail for a piece of bone everyday for living.
Am I not right about that? Johnny ???
JD
China seems to be claiming everything around it as if the neighbouring countries never existed in the past.
Johnny
@Frank So I ‘wiggle tail for bone everyday for living’?
That’s how Chinese debate?
Your comments reveal a lot about your country and culture.
Don’t worry I won’t stoop to your low level. Go ahead and post whatever you want. This is an democratic site and you are free to say what you want. Even though you always are against free press and you claim that this site and its editors are Anti-China…..