A recent multi think-tank publication entitled “Shared Goals, Converging Interests: A Plan for U.S.–Australia–India Cooperation in the Indo–Pacific,” has apparently been the source of an about-face by Australian Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd.
Co-published by Australia’s Lowy Institute, India’s Observer Research Foundation, and the U.S. Heritage Institute, the authors called for a tripartite defense pact between the United States, Australia, and India in a world where “the rise of China…is posing the first serious challenge to U.S. military preeminence in Asia in half a century.”
While there have been no official intergovernmental talks about this particular defense pact, on November 30, a spokesperson for Rudd’s office appeared receptive to the report, stating:
“The idea of trilateral co-operation between India, the U.S. and Australia is a thoughtful one that deserves further study. We are logical partners, and it’s in all three countries' interests to continue to expand consultation and co-operation.”
Furthermore, in an interview with the Australian Financial Review, Rudd was quoted as having said that India “has really been quite positive” to the possibility of a trilateral defense arrangement.
However, the very next day, India’s External Affairs Ministry published on its website a statement flatly denying Rudd’s characterization of New Delhi’s interest in the trilateral pact.
“We have seen media reports about the comments attributed to the Australian Foreign Minister Mr. Kevin Rudd on a possible three-way economic and security pact with the US and India. We are not aware of any such proposal.”
And, within a day, Canberra was quick to rectify what had become a public contradiction on a seemingly direct affront to Beijing. Australia’s High Commission released a statementthat the country “has not proposed such a trilateral arrangement,” and that “characterizing India’s views on a trilateral security dialogue between India, Australia and the U.S. are wrong.” Rudd also categorically denied that Canberra had any ambitions to create a multilateral security agreement within the region.
Whether this public gaffe was a mere misinterpretation of the foreign minister’s words or an internal Ministry miscommunication remains unclear. However, what this public slip does reflect is the increasing tendency of Australia and its other Asian partners to tread carefully over growing security issues resulting from China’s non-transparent military and economic rise in the region.
Australia’s “China Reality”
Australia-China relations are convoluted at best. On the one hand, trade growth between the two nations has grown exponentially in recent years. While most of the world suffered from the global financial crisis, because of China’s insatiable demand for energy resource, Australia actually experienced economic growth. Since 2009, China has become Australia’s largest trading partner, an exchange valued at $105 billion. Especially in the sector of energy, China is a major importer of Australia’s natural resources, which have prompted an economic boom for the western half of the country.
However, China’s growing trade clout in Australia has also been a source of uneven economic growth. The ever-increasing exports of natural resources has forced the Australian dollar to rise, increased the cost of labor as skilled workers enter the natural resource sector, and has left Australian manufacturing unable to compete. In the past two years, it’s estimated that nearly 100,000 manufacturing jobs have disappeared. And, while the resource and mining sector continues to grow, other areas of Australia’s economy, such as tourism, have been suffering.
In addition to the unbalanced economic relationship, Australia also faces growing security concerns over China’s increasingly aggressive stance regarding the territorial disputes in the South China Sea. Situated just north of Australia, Beijing hasn’t been shy in using implied military threats to assert its claims in these contested waters. And while the United States has reiterated its commitment to its military presence and allies in the region, constant threats by Congress on major military budget cuts have raised doubts in Asia about the sustainability of U.S. military strength in the region.
So, while Rudd may have flatly denied the prospect of a trilateral defense pact, it’s not difficult to imagine Canberra entertaining the idea behind closed doors.
Australia’s Measured Response
In an effort to strengthen its security vis-à-vis China, Canberra has begun a multibillion dollar defense modernization project that includes new helicopters, tanks, and high-range missile submarines.
In August, the government approved four major defense programs that included the purchase of over 950 new training vehicles, upgrades to its Standard Missle-2, upgrades to its Sea Sparrow Missiles, and the modernization of its military satellite capabilities. The cost of completing all these projects alone has been estimated to be around $3 billion.
In addition to upgrading its weapons systems, Australia has initiated military cooperation with its regional neighbors. In June of this year, the Japan-U.S. Security Consultative Committee adopted the strategic goal of strengthening U.S.-Japan-Australian defense cooperation. And by the following month, the three countries conducted their first-ever joint military exercises off the coast of Brunei.
Perhaps the most controversial move by Canberra occurred last month, when Barack Obama and Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard agreed to establish a U.S. base in northern Australia, which would station 2,500 marines. As expected, Beijing protested this move, accusing the United States of engaging in “cold war mentality.”
Despite all these measures, Australia, one of the United States’ closet allies in the region, is walking a fine line as it attempts to remain resolute against Chinese military aggression while not provoking its largest trading partner.
Broadening Multilateral Possibilities
As Canberra continues this balancing act, Washington may soon find itself sidelined as a bilateral, or even trilateral, regional partner in counterbalancing Beijing. Indeed, international organizations have increasingly become the preferred vehicle for confronting Beijing. This is especially true in the South China Sea, where ASEAN has taken the lead in representing many of the interested parties. Countries such as Vietnam and the Philippines have become some of the most vocal critics of China’s claims and have been pressuring ASEAN to take stronger steps against Beijing. Recently, the Philippines released its own plan for settling the dispute, pushing ASEAN to adopt it.
And while Rudd denounced any sort of anti-China military pact, in the same breath he suggested that any union should be a part of a larger multilateral venue:
“The Defense Ministry is also not keen on hopping onto any multilateral security constructs in the region excepting those under the UN flag or such broad-based arrangements as ASEAN Defense Ministers Meeting and the ASEAN Regional Forum.”
For now, the United States can afford to focus on bilateral agreements with regional partners, such as the deal over the deployment of marines in northern Australia. However, Washington should be aware that the ground is starting to shift, with multilateral venues and arrangements increasingly looking like the Asia-Pacific’s preferred approach to thorny issues.
John K. Yi is an Alfa Fellow currently living in Moscow, Russia. He received his M.A. in Eurasian, Russian, and Eastern European Studies at Georgetown University, focusing on Russian foreign policy in East Asia and in the Six Party Talks.
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ANSHUL
DEAR SIR..
AFTER A LONG TENURE IT IS GOOD THAT A MULTILATERAL CONSESUS IS FORMED THAT A GROWING CHINA IS GOOD, BUT THE HEGIMOSIM OF CHINA HAS BECAME A MAJOR CHALLENGE FOR THE CHINA ITSELF. ITS CRUSHING OF ITS OWN PEOPLES CIVIL RIGHTS,DEVALUATION OF YEN, FUNDING OF RADICALISM IS THE MAJOR CAUSE OF THE COLLAPSE OF THIS MILITARY APATHETIC REGIME . WHAT IS GOOD IS THAT THIS IS NOT BEING OVELOOKED BY WORLD LEADERS.
JohnX
Drop the upper text Anshul.
It just makes it seem like you are shouting and no one listens to a guy shouting at them no matter how intelligent the point is.
Drop the upper text Anshul.
Philip AC3
How is it good? Have you ever been to China? I have been both India and China. My, what a stark contrast it truly is! India is the world’s largest democracy, yet it is also one of the poorest nations. Its free ‘”democratic’ nation is bloating with corruption, and much needed funds are diverted towards self interest rather than for its people. It can only gain from ANY type of strategic alliance or security pact with ANY western nation. While China was determined to move forward as a unified nation following the rise of communism, it has prospered. The new leaders from the early era had a vision for the country’s future, and for its people. This is why China is growing from strength to strength while India is suffering from its own internal struggles which are defined through class, religion, and cultural differences. While China was to engage in partnerships with its neighbors within the region, countries like India are brainwashed by their former colonial rulers into thinking that for some reason, China poses a major security threat, even though history has shown otherwise. Was it not the West who plundered India and occupied it for centuries, only to turn its back on it and left no beneficial remnants of its past? Was it also not the West who tried so hard to penetrate China that they decided to use dirty tactics and introduce drugs as a means of weakening the ruling class and ultimately society as a whole (by the way they never succeeded). If it were not for the west and their imperialist ways then many, many nations in Asia would not have been colonized and used for the benefit of the West. And if you remember, there are many countries who peg their currency to the US, not just China. The lack of fiscal and monetary discipline in the US is the reason for its financial demise, which is fueled by greed. Yet they try to pin the current circumstances on a nation which has been busy doing the best it can for itself and its people, without the expense of damaging or causing permanent impact on other nations. While the US interferes in weak countries as part of their foreign policy to gain access to resources primarily through the tactic of regime change, China has been taking the apporach of direct investments in the development of these same nations to achieve the same goals. Much of te developing world have benefited from infrastructure, health programs, agriculture, and other projects that China has provided in order to gain access to its own resource and political interests. The process of Chinese foreign policy has always been one of mutual benefit. This is a concept that they have been practicing as a culture for thousands of years. Instead of believing in the Western story that China is a threat, the nations of the region should accept that there is a clear dominant state that is able to represent and protect the interests of the East, and that the nations of Asia will be much stronger together, rather than divided. how could anyone accept the stories we hear in the media about the so-called ‘threat’ relating to China’s rise. The fact remains that this is a tactic launched by the West to ensure Asia is not unified because it would be a disaster if Asia ever became more powerful than the West.
Girish
@Philip AC3
Your Idea about India is pretty flawed. It is obvious that “China is mush more developed and India is not when you look at the country while we visit”. But this is not significant point. Growth is not only infrastructure which we see. What about institutional development? freedom? open media? are they not part of development?. and if yes, then you can say that China developed Infrastructure first and is building institutions where as India developed institutions first and now building infrastructure. What is significant is if India is growing and learning or not? and the answer is “YES”. India is catching up fast and that is true in all means weather it terms of Infrastructure development, industries, defense, Space, Nuclear, Human skill development etc.
Agreed, India cannot match China and the reasons are simple.
1. We ofcoure stated late in economic development thus that 15 years or more gap is not possible to bridge untill China stops developing (which is not going to happen)
2. Indian way of working is totally different to the Chinese way. But anyone saying that Indian way of doing things is not good because Chinese way looks better doesn’t make any sense.
Just like India, China has massive problems too right from social unrest as well as corruption. Labeling India as corrupt doesn’t make sense as here in India, hiding high level corruption is very difficult which is still easy in China.
Anyhow I am fully convinced that growth while keeping democratic values is better for India and Chinese system can never be good for India. And if someone argue that democracy is the hindrance to India’s growth then just to remind that India grows at 8% growth rate and our exports are growing 20% growth rate(end of the story). Also India is already under progress of investing 1.5 trillion USD into infrastructure by 2017.
As far as curruption is concern, people must follow up the lokpal movement to understand how Indians are working day and night to get rid of the corruption and they will succeed too.
John Chan
@Girish,
Caste system and democracy are contradiction and not compatible. Election in India is only high caste elite’s pastime.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: India has a written cast system, while china has a non-written cast system.
John Chan
@a_Canadian_observer,
Every Chinese are equal, their social status depends on their own effort. But In Canada, the non-written caste system is similar to India; it is based on race and gender, the demarcation is called glass ceiling in Canada. The glass ceiling or barrier will limit how far or high one can go if he is non-white male.
The juridical system in Canada is also more likely to prosecute and to convict non-white.
Philip AC3
You obviously haven’t been to China. India is decades behind the rest of East Asia. It needs to engage with its neighbors before seeking global recognition such as entry into the UNSC. It is also a very much labor-intensive economy; with labor through the delivery of services for developed nations in the way of outsourcing. The only reason this is possible is due to cheap labor, and the fact that they speak English. India will soon take over many of the manufacturing needs of multinationals as China moves from a labor-intensive to a capital-intensive economy. When women are working by hand to lay tar for the cities’ roads and highways of India, it’s a clear sign that infrastructure resources is an issue, let alone the moral ignorance for using such workers for such tasks which that other countries use proper machinery for. I have witness these events with my own eyes. The Ganges also happens to be the dirtiest river on the planet, with parts of it containing the highest concentrations of feces-borne bacteria. At the same time, A lot of China’s rivers are heavily polluted through intensive and irresponsible industrial waste management (or lack of). These are all signs of developing nations that are working to increase the standards of living of it’s citizens. But sharing knowledge and expertise, mutual cooperation will promote better understanding and trust, and will lead to a safer and more united region, both economically and politically. The west wishes to contain such progress to a limit that they deem to be manageable. The Axis of the West should not be considered a friend. Make peace with Pakistan, and this may gain more leverage in strengthening ties with the supreme Asian power of the 21st century, but only if India wants to.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
“@a_Canadian_observer,
Every Chinese are equal, their social status depends on their own effort. But In Canada, the non-written caste system is similar to India; it is based on race and gender, the demarcation is called glass ceiling in Canada. The glass ceiling or barrier will limit how far or high one can go if he is non-white male.
The juridical system in Canada is also more likely to prosecute and to convict non-white.”
If that is your understanding of Canada then I feel sorry for you. However, I do not wish to educate you, as it will take some of my energy. It’s just ironic that people from china are drawn to such a bad place as Canada, away from the heaven called “china”. Either what you said is totally rubbish or chinese are attracted to Canada’s “brutalities”.
John Chan
@a_Canadian_observer,
Why do you feel so offended by the exposure of some dark spots in your beloved host nation? Meanwhile you are slandering China with baseless fabrication comfortably.
Nobody said China was heaven; only the West claims that it is the model of the world and it has the moral high ground; it is so arrogant about its way of life that it has been bombing and killing everybody to submit to its dominance.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: Don’t you think it’s ironic that people from china have been flocking to Canada (and other Westpac countries)?
Instead of saying that I’ve been slandering china, why don’t you disprove me, say, about the “milk” issue in china that I’ve been asking you to provide your “expert” opinion on?
John Chan
@a_canadian_observer,
Maybe you should let me know where do you come from, so I can apply your logic to criticize your original nation too. Are you a Vietnamese-Canadian, Indian-Canadian, or Japanese-Canadian? Besides there are a lot of Americans in Canada too, in according to your logic, USA and China are the same, is it right?
Japan is selling radiation poisoned tea leaves, rice, mushroom, baby formula, etc. in China. STEP has just recalled 400,000 can of them. So what is your point? How about you provide your “expert” opinion on too?
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
“@a_canadian_observer,
Maybe you should let me know where do you come from, so I can apply your logic to criticize your original nation too. Are you a Vietnamese-Canadian, Indian-Canadian, or Japanese-Canadian? Besides there are a lot of Americans in Canada too, in according to your logic, USA and China are the same, is it right?”
Why does it matter where I came from? I’m just a humble earth citizen residing in Canada. I simply see the lies and attrocities coming from china and feel I need to speak out.
“Japan is selling radiation poisoned tea leaves, rice, mushroom, baby formula, etc. in China. STEP has just recalled 400,000 can of them. So what is your point? How about you provide your “expert” opinion on too?”
You really live up to your reputaion for fabricating slanders against others. Without credible facts (i.e., non china’s) your statements are just garbage. Why don’t you andswer questions re. china instead of pulling Japanese into the mix?
Yang zi
This is kind of things China should stand up critizing it as dark and peace disturbing. Some will say China is xenophobic, but can you blame China?
China has no need to build alliances, let the game be played by one side. I know it is exciting to plot against others, but China has to deprive their fun. China will stay the course, focus on the ball and let them air boxing.
ANSHUL
GREAT ARTICLE SIR… AND WE ARE GOOD BOXERS…
John
China doesn’t need to build alliances with other countries in the Asia-Pacific region because of the countries enormous size and extreme proximity to the rest of the nations in that region. Let’s take the South China Sea for example. China could fairly easy drown any disputes to their authority in the region by any one nation, like The Philippines or Vietnam. However, with Organizations encompassing all the “little” countries, Japan, Australia, and the United States, China’s power can be kept in check. That way a balance can be made, with compromise, peace, and prosperity as a result.
JohnX
Yes, I can blame China for being xenophobic.
Listen if China is really willing to treat everyone equally and fairly then we have no issue.
Australia has no urge to contain China, but Australia is not a lesser state that China can boss around because they do business with them.
I no longer live in the 17th Century so I don’t care how China saw itself in the past, I care about the 21st Century and thats today. How China acts and what China claims today is relevant, not what was.
That issue is important, not what was. Therefore, stop focusing on issues that were and making enemies and start saying that Oz has no probs with China so long as you focus on trade and not control.
yang zi
JohnX, if you think China want to control Oz, you are xenophobic. what make you think that?
John Chan
@JohnX,
Nobody wants to live in the 17th century, but people do not study history bound to repeat history. Citing history as an explanation for one’s actions or decisions is not living the 17th century.
History is a reference, benchmark or baseline; from which we can gauge the good, the bad and the ugly of current activities. From history we can judge that USA has turned rogue, its bombings and killings since WWII have nothing to do with democracy and human right, it is pure predatory imperialist activities. From history we can judge that Australia’s push of tripartite defense pact is for the survival of Anglo-Saxon empire in an alien world. From history we can judge that India allying with the USA and Australia is for carrying out its British Empire extension ambition. From the history Chinese can judge that CCP government is the most qualified regime in the last few hundred years to protect Chinese and China.
Understanding history is to understand the background and rational of a decision or an action, it is not possible to judge the decision or action’s rational or reasonableness without knowing its background information. The only reason for people do not want to know the background information is that they are not open minded, and they have hidden agenda, so JohnX do you have anything to hide by insisting on focusing on now only?
Reason
@John Chan ….. you said,
“From the history Chinese can judge that CCP government is the most qualified regime in the last few hundred years to protect Chinese and China.”
Mate, you can’t throw in something like this and not back it up.
I’ll get ya started….
Here’s why the CCP was NEVER the right government to protect the Chinese
1) Revolutionary Opium – after all that China had suffered from opium the CCP had no compunction to sell it to Nationalist China to fund itself – despicable beyond belief!
2) Not fighting the Japanese – the CCP always shirked away from fighting the Japanese – despite what their rewrite of history tells ya.
3) Changchun – more than 250,000 innocent Chinese starved to death, as many people as were killed in Nanjing, so the Communist could take the city. Beyond disgusting!
4) Land Reform – Give the peasants back the land – as reward for fighting – then take it off them a year later in communization – which led to the….
5) GREAT LEAP FORWARD – the world’s biggest famine …. EVER! Wanna deny the figures… go read Tombstone – compiled by a Chinese person
6) The countless political movements that destroyed Chinese culture and society leading up to the….
7) CULTURAL REVOLUTION
8) By the late 1970s, China had been so ravaged by the CCP that the only possible way was up. Seriously, when someone stands on your neck for so long, when they remove the boot a little, it’s gonna feel better
9) June 4th 1989 – The PLA shoots Chinese citizens, workers and students across the country.
10) In its 70 year reign, the CCP is the biggest killer of human kind ever – great than the sum total of all the wars in human history.
so…. John Chan
Your turn… you were saying…
“From the history Chinese can judge that CCP government is the most qualified regime in the last few hundred years to protect Chinese and China.”
John Chan
@Reason,
If a Chinese cannot say “From the history Chinese can judge that CCP government is the most qualified regime in the last few hundred years to protect Chinese and China.” who else can? As a foreigner like you to tell me wrong to say that, are you a litter overbearing, a little too intrusive, and a little too imperialistic?
Don’t you agree you are practicing predatory imperialism? Those are China internal affairs, the major polices they carried out to make China catching up with the West in living standard and national strength, although some polices were detrimental and undesirable, but they were China’s internal affairs, what right do you as a foreigner to interfere?
The Westpac nations’ internal polices caused the world financial meltdown; the financial meltdown caused millions lost jobs, untold amount of social suffering, and they still have not figure ways to fix the problem, can China just barge in and take over the Westpac nations and do the job for them on some kind of self-righteous excuses as you suggested?
Or can China says Aussies are abusing their natives, and barges in to kick all the non-native out of Australia in the name of human rights and preserving endangered species?
Your rational is puzzling.
Philip AC3
@Reason… lol you do think you know a lot about the CCP. What factual evidence do you have that a shooting / massacre ever happened in 1989? The criticisms of the CCP are also used by the west, it’s called propaganda. Western journalists were onthe ground and did not witness mass killings. You say the Chinese are the biggest killers of humankind? Helloooooooo have you forgotten the million people killed by the “Coalition Of The Willing” over the last 10 years? Have you forgotten about whole cities being wiped out such as ummmmm Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Perhaps the reason China did not want to fight Japan was because the Chinese were being invaded by imperialist forces? Oh wait a minute, they fought along side the US during that war. And oh wait the US took their time too to decide whether they would engage the pacific. But they had to wait for a good excuse such as Pearl Harbor being bombed. Your thoughts through such comments confirm to me that you are a slave to western propoganda, from the same people who seek regime change from counties in the middle east. Geez so that’s why democracy is so handy. It can be used as an excuse to overthrow “dictators” (yesterday they were presidents and prime ministers, today they are dictators of regimes). It can also be used as a means to prop up other preferred candidates for leading nations that will best serve the interests of the west. Your ignorance doesn’t surprise me. There is no debate here but you may give a response if you wish. Do not speak in ignorance with unsubstantiated statements. Know your subject well before typing.
Bierstadt
Rather odd tone in this article – the US is a major proponent of multilateral solutions, and of an ASEAN solution if one can be worked out. The prominence of US bilateral alliances are reflections of the difficulty of developing strong multilateral partnerships in the Asia-Pacific region and US historical involvement, not a US attempt to cut out ASEAN.
In any case, the US is more pro-China than against it – witness US diplomatic, economic, and finally military defense of China during and leading up to WW2, not to mention deep US-China economic ties today. However, it is very natural for democracies to build up ties, and with the uncertainty over just what the CCP plans to do with China’s secretive military in the future, building military ties makes a great deal of sense for everyone in the region who might be a target for that military – in other words, everyone other than China.
EAM
“a tripartite defense pact between the United States, Australia, and India”. This is very unlikely to have many takers in Australia. While there is a clear need to upgrade relations with India (as exemplifed by the Labor parrty’s decision to sell uranium to India (a policy which the opposition has had for soem time)), there will be little support for joining some anti-China alliance. Undoubtedly, the events in the SCS and the belligerent rhetoric that we increasingly see coming out of China worries us, the only reason some kind of anti-China concert could emerge will be if China pushes along this path. The indications though are that the Chinese government undestands this and hopefully does not act in a reckless way. I do not think they will – and in this case, an anti-China concert is highly unlikely and will have little support here.
Grant
It’s rather premature to talk about anti-Chinese alliances, and I hate to wonder why it was called an ‘axis’. I can’t see it being accidental. In any case China is not the Soviet Union. Some rising military budgets and informal friendships to push back at China are to be expected but this is hardly a situation that demands a formal alliance.
samuel welsh
An anti china alliace is needed when it comes to trade and human rights.
the stupid greed must stop and the free trade with this country.
stupid business people and politicians grow up we do not
want to keep loosing jobs,resources and and human rights progress with
this evil government ,imagine if these fools said lets trade with north korea next and greed prospered again wake up people.
Grant
That hardly calls for an alliance, especially since we aren’t discussing human rights or trade but security. Incidentally it isn’t as though Singapore, Japan or South Korea have been living purely by the rules of free trade.
Huang
China repeatedly pro-claiming its “Non-interfering policies” and “Non-alignment principles” while others(particularly the US) are doing quite the opposite. Following the popagandist terms such as “China threats,assertive,bullying,aggressive,transparency,one-party,authoritarian,human-rights,freedoms…” and the recent plantings(into the minds of ?) of words like currency,price dumping,the return to Asia,trilateral and omni-lateral…..
In the case of China,as Bruce Lee understood years ago and said, “Obey the principles without being bound by them.” should be looked into while trying to maintain the proper course forward for both China and other Asian brothers and sisters. Keep in mind the only things matter here are issues concerning the peace and stability of the Asia-Pacific neighborhood and NOT neccessarily concerned the US or Australia. The US and Australia can always withdraw their hands when things become burning hot to them. It is Asia and Asian who will always be there to face the consequences.
What ever the US and others intentions are or will be should not be something new or un-expected any more. They should be viewed as natural phenomenons and thus should be handled according to the required steps in maintaining stability thus safeguarding the continued developnemtal progress of the whole Asia.
As Bruce Lee recognized, “If you always put limits on everything you do,physical or anything else,it will spread into your work and into your life. There no limits. There are only plateaus and you must not stay there,you must go beyond them.” China’s military budget increases should be done according to China’s national defense requirements and should no longer take into considerations anybody else’s suspicions,fake or real fears,jealousies…..”The hell with them”. China’s military(PLA) needs to increase the number of live-fire exercises(near-actual conflicts) on land, in the air,on the high seas everywhere possible(International waters). In doing so, China’s neighbors and friends will get to know China better while at the same time, minimizing many mis-perceptions and mis-understandings.
Besides, China’s intentions and developnmental path will be better understood when China no longer have to repeatedly trying to explain the nation’s peaceful intends. Again, Bruce Lee overcame this difficulty by stating that” I am not in this World to live up to your expectation and you are not in this World to live up to mine.”
As for those others still fail to comprehend this simple fact and continueing the wicked cries? Let them be since “A wise man can learn more from a foolish question
than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” In other words,” F..them”.
There were all the negative talks blowing around infecting some and not able to fool others. China’s path forward no longer have to be bound any more by any kinds of nonsense. Forget about the side shows. for China,the road ahead is still very long and bumpy and they are all expected and natural.
Consider it just another “Long March” however long it may be.
Reason
@Yang zi
Oh, the dream is so nice – but China isn’t half as united as you like to think it is.
Yeah, people are knee-jerk nationalist in China – but when push comes the shove, the CCP will be trying to unite a fractured society against the West, the propaganda machine will be working in overdrive but the fact is that most Chinese have no interest in fighting the CCPs dream of global domination and world supremacy.
Don’t forget the world’s biggest gangster group, the CCP, has a population of 80million – which is tiny
Leaving 1.25billion Chinese people who aint in the club
The CCP has EVERY need to build alliances, ESPECIALLY with the Chinese people, but unfortunately, their only way to stay in power is to lock these people down and keep them subjugated.
When push comes to shove, just like in every other war that has happened in China the majority of the populace will think, “This aint my war, I need to just concentrate on living.”
And the big idea will dissolve away.
The reason why the CCP struggles to make alliances with viable outside countries is because it hasn’t even made a trustworthy alliance with its own people yet.
yang zi
@Reason, why are you always convinced CCP want to fight a war?
Think, please Think. One thing to think about is why there are so many “wu maoers” defending China?
You have read some history of China, you know the sufferings, turmoils, dynastic collapses, revolutions and foreign invasions, you know the terrible deeds committed by Mao and his colleagues. What you don’t know is, How we Chinese has learned from all these. the answer is obvious,
we treasure stability and development!
we don’t have time to waste, not for the arrogant, suspicious or malicious, not for the past atrocities of CCP either. if blacks don’t blame whites for the slavery done by their ancestors, if we don’t hold you responsible for what British Empire did, we surely don’t blame current CCP leaders for Mao’s crimes. Sure, CCP still has many flaws, but we are not Egyptians, overthrow Mubarak only to be ruled by military and turmoil.
If CCP is not performing, we will get rid of it, but for now, it has China’s administrative elite and doing an OK job. if you think CCP will go to war, you dream on.
Remember, China doesn’t have time to waste.
shen liang
@Yang zi
Reason is correct. The obvious anxiety that underwrites all of the CCP’s “directives”, which are still posted on big red banners all over China’s cities, reveals that the CCP doesn’t trust its own people, and we have responded to this. We have become more cynical, less responsible for our nation, and less willing to believe in this project of supreme greatness the CCP would have us embark upon. It is still possible, of course, that we might get amped up enough for a fight, but the “heavenly kingdom” has now become a satirical phrase we use to show just how little we think of this inflated notion the CCP would have us support. Whether it is palatable or not, China is divided. Always has been. This is the problem with focusing on one’s empire rather than one’s nation.
As for why there are so many wu mao lashing out at people all over news sites, I think it is obvious from what you say:
“we don’t have time to waste, not for the arrogant, suspicious or malicious, not for the past atrocities of CCP either. if blacks don’t blame whites for the slavery done by their ancestors, if we don’t hold you responsible for what British Empire did, we surely don’t blame current CCP leaders for Mao’s crimes.”
Clearly they do have time to waste, especially for blaming everyone BUT the CCP and its past atrocities. Are you seriously suggesting wu mao don’t repeatedly bring up the “foreign invasions”, and even try to tie the Japanese invasion to “Western” invasions? How many wu mao have cited how important “face” is to them on this website? Haven’t you yourself claimed (I’m sorry if I mistake you for another person) that it is important enough to go to war over? The day they don’t have time for such nonsense is the day when rationality will return to some of these conversations.
We cannot “learn” from our history when we are only willing or able to interpret it one way. Mostly, we have simply tried to move on and believe what we want to believe.
John Chan
@shen liang,
What is wrong with hanging big red banner to remind and encourage? Which nation and company do not hang banner to encourage? Japanese use a lot of red banners in factories in case you do not know about it.
Different opinions are an expression of democracy in the West, yet they are a sign of division in China, what kind of funny logic you have.
Japanese has not shown remorse about its war crimes against Asian since Meiji, its occupation of Ryukyu is the proof of its Fascist core value. Japanese need to do better than surrogating a Chinese to escape its accountability for the atrocity it committed.
Yang zi
sheng Liang, the debat on this site is about China’s foreign relations, of course it is about foreign country and China, not about the good and bad of China’s government, why do they want to critizing CCP? Besides, when I put a quote on wu mao, means they are not wu mao. Also, when I say fight for face, I was talking about national prestige and respect for rules, which is to punish aggressors who act unilaterally on a dispute. People always say Chinese love face, in reality, westerners are too, even more in some cases.
We might be over protective, but we have good reasons and we want let people know.
Huang
@shen liang,
If you are afraid of RED or you are just cowing yourself to be accepted by the emotionally-anti-China flock, then what you are doing is just normal(but foolish and wrong). If you are convinced that by using a Chinese sounding user-name to speak against China and the Chinese would add crediblity to the mis-leading criticisms, you are dead wrong. You see, credible or not is decided by the readers(Chinese or Non-Chinese,For or against China)NOT you.
What ever grievances you might have against the Chinese government or people, deceptive and dis-honest allegations won’t do. People everywhere on the planet are the same; They only accept the truths; Not lies based on emotional tightnesses.
I am looking forward to see your reasonable criticisms; If you really have one.
Remember another thing, I still doubt if you ever been to China or your relatives are in China or if you are even a Chinese person.
Reason
@Shen liang
YOU ARE CHINA – Your voice is the voice I hear from Chinese people everyday – unfortunately, the voice the world hears from China is the voice of the CCP.
The disconnect that is going on in China at the moment is immense
Chinese people mean no one harm and certainly do not want to go to war with anyone – they want to improve their lives and see their children grow old.
Unfortunately, the will of the Chinese people is being hijacked by the dire, unscrupulous needs of a foreign influenced government that will pay any cost to stay in power.
The is the epic tragedy of our time.
The CCP will assault everything it means to be Chinese in order to maintain its power and control.
John Chan
@Reason,
It’s not worthy of you, putting words in China’s mouth then bashing those words as China’s own. Articles and anti-China bloggers on this site have been pumping out endless warmonger chants against China, meanwhile the Westpac has been bombing and killing elsewhere to substantiate their bellicose war chants, yet you accuse China wanting war, it is really unfair, and dishonest.
nirvana
@Shen Liang, Yang zi,
>>” …the CCP doesn’t trust its own people” (Shen Liang)
That’s the common trait of authoritarian regimes. Now, it is also true that in special circumstances a country may need an authoritarian governance, even a marshal law. I am referring to the stabilization periods after a violent civil war, a collapse after war defeat or brutal regime change. This type of governance should not last for ever. The problem is that many regimes continue to fuel the type of uncertainty and anxiety among their populace as a pretext to prolong their diminishing legitimacy.
@Yang zi, when you advocate that China needs thousands of nuclear heads for its security, you are either a victim or an active relay of suchs state propaganda.
nirvana
My bad. Martial law, of course
Huang
@reason,
There’s practically NOT a speck of “reason” or convincing arguments from any of your “emotional outbursts” on this site. As always, its all about the wicked CCP while grossly failed all-the-time to have some minute dignity to criticize the CCP with something “real and true and not self-deceptive”.
You can cry or roll on the dirt all day long or even cry to heart out,the CCP will remain to be a pain in your…. and there’s nothing you or anybody else “like you of course” can do a thing about it. The tighter you get on your emotions,the more pain in your…. it will be. So ! Go ahead and make my day.
The CCP is no “piece of crap like you”; They don’t hold any wicked and emotional entanglements that ultimately lead to your own inner-breakdowns. Who’s to blaimed ? Yourself-of course.
As for the normal and good-minded people,China will gradually making political reforms and will eventually renaming the country’s ruling party’s name or names. After all,political reforms and restructurings are indispensable components in “seeking truth from facts” and “adapting to changes in the new era”.
Stay tuned and watch China(CCP) advance to a new level of practical governance and no nonsense. There will be a new and revolutionary term describing China’s natural and innovative political characteristic and the name will be as simple to understand as AB and C.
Reason
Oh Huang,
Is it too close to the bone for you when I highlight the CCP?
Does it make it too difficult for you to protect yourself with the “China Bashing” cushion
Oh, Huang, I do love you personal insults – they make my day worthwhile
here’s a thought… why don’t you merge the personal insults with debunking these very clear points why the CCP was NEVER the right government to protect the Chinese – never was – never will be!
1) Revolutionary Opium – after all that China had suffered from opium the CCP had no compunction to sell it to Nationalist China to fund itself – despicable beyond belief!
and Huang says: ?
2) Not fighting the Japanese – the CCP always shirked away from fighting the Japanese – despite what their rewrite of history tells ya.
and Huang says: ?
3) Changchun – more than 250,000 innocent Chinese starved to death, as many people as were killed in Nanjing, so the Communist could take the city. Beyond disgusting!
and Huang says: ?
4) Land Reform – Give the peasants back the land – as reward for fighting – then take it off them a year later in communization – which led to the….
and Huang says: ?
5) GREAT LEAP FORWARD – the world’s biggest famine …. EVER! Wanna deny the figures… go read Tombstone – compiled by a Chinese person
and Huang says: ?
6) The countless political movements that destroyed Chinese culture and society leading up to the….
7) CULTURAL REVOLUTION
and Huang says: ?
8) By the late 1970s, China had been so ravaged by the CCP that the only possible way was up. Seriously, when someone stands on your neck for so long, when they remove the boot a little, it’s gonna feel better
and Huang says: ?
9) June 4th 1989 – The PLA shoots Chinese citizens, workers and students across the country.
10) In its 70 year reign, the CCP is the biggest killer of human kind ever – great than the sum total of all the wars in human history.
and Huang says: ?
Huang
@reason,
As always and as I have stated. Thanks for clarifying all that I have described regarding your emotional tightness.
It should be no hassles in what a clown you are NOW.
You see, I don’t give the crap who or what you are. If you can come up with something or anything at all that truely reflect the bad things,good things,the evil things you deeply believe the CCP commited, I would not ONLY thank you for it,I would be speaking highly of you too.
Unfortunately, remarks driven by hates,jealousies,emotional tightnesses,or just plain stupid will be hammered mercilessly by the good people reading comments on this site.
Furthermore, in case you are too pre=occupied or overwhelmed with hates and jealousies,the CCP never express hates toward any other political idealogies. Now,thats a clear indication of who’s the normal guy and who’s a nut case.
Salvations are within oneself. If you are have been shunk too deeply under, it would required a CCP still of treatments to bring you back from the brink.
Reason
Play the ball… not the man Huang
Seriously, when I read your comments I think I’m in a Cultural Revolution Struggle session
a_canadian_observer
@Reason: This is a technique similar to the technique Communist “political officers” were trained for. It’s a way to brainwashed and keep people reminded of their doctrine. The will never care about facts like we do in the free world. This technique works in a repressive environment like communisim but not in a free society.
Straight Talker
China today is totally different than China 1950. First, China-Pla is the largest number in the world. Second, China has thousands of nuclear weapons (short and long range) they could wipe out of a large number of militaries and major cities. Third, China has the spy’s satellites flying around the globe. So, I believed that it’s hard for the bad guy who intends to drop atomic bombs, or lunches the nuclear missiles to China like the U.S. did to Japan in the world war 2.
Rajeev Aravkar
Thing is that in democracies people are allowed to think on both sides of the wall, eg people can have an opinion against their own country. So these non democracies do not know how their govt messes it up.
Nuclear proliferation to a neighbouring country ???
territorial claims over almost 10 neighbouring states.
2 internal independence seeking countries???
Well, judge a person from how their friends are ?
Well, lets look their international allies ? one is epicentre of terrorism and other is a rogue state. guess who is their best friend ?
Are all your neighbouring countries are suppossed to be evil ?
Yeah baby, one person (who gets sympathy just because it is cornered) and other 10 neighbours are the evil.
One person is correct and others are wrong.
Laughable!!
John Chan
@Rajeev Aravkar,
India wants to be liked, and in the crowd, it is a trait of well-trained lackey of British colonial master; so it will sell its integrity to be liked and in the crowd regardless how unscrupulous that crowd is.
India a nation maintains an inhumane caste system society that abuse s people by birth yet erect an election system to cover its ugliness of discrimination, injustice, and human right violations is indeed laughable.
BTW there are tens of insurgencies in India seeking independence in case you do not know about it.
Rajeev Aravkar
@john Chan
You are correct. Probably, there 100 more things i could add to this. so what?
What does it prove ? Internal problems ?
Unemploymemt, Corruption, Politics, Health hazards are big problems but they are, after all INTERNAL PROBLEMS, and they are not a threat to other country.
Transfer of nukes here and there, claims over other territories are what ?
Becoming a pain to yourself and becoming a pain to others is a totally different.
Take, internal radicalisation of pakistan will never be a problem to india as long as it never spills to india. do you get it ?
Well, West understands this better. It was ok with the terrorism problem in kashmir, but once it became a threat to them, the perceptions took a 360 degree change.
The_Observer
The Chinese will continue to do what they have been doing for the last 30 years which is first and foremost to grow the economy to raise the standard of living for all her population. The CCP stakes here legitimacy and reputation on the ability to carry this through. It won’t matter if there is only one political party for the country but if individual representatives in the future can be elected for a party that has legitimacy that would be fine. After all most political parties in the so-called democracies are just two sides of the same coin in actuality. Secondly, the other duties of the Chinese state would include the feeding, clothing, education and the provision of a minimum health service and pension for all her people. China has to provide deterrance to any hostile power attempting to undermine the country has limits on her military expenditure for the size of her economy, landmass and population. This actually shows prudence which is good for the long-term development of the country.
Matthew Hall
It horrible, but the west only came together to overcome the depression through the goal of defeating germany and japan. We need a common enemy. This time it will be the democracies against the non-democracies. It is a sign of the arrogance of the global elite today that they ever though their skills, knowledge and powers of persuasion and manipulation could be any match for the raw unprincipled quest for power at all costs of the chinese commmunist party. They will be pushed aside in the West as more realistic and battle tested leaders take the reins in the West in this anti-chinese confrontation. This new more democratic and representative elite in western countries will use the power they gain through their success at battling china to push aside the current western elites for a more globally balanced, though still lacking chinese, political and economic system. Some truths are ugly, and the ccp’s intentions and desires are about as ugly as anything the world has seen. It is only nuclear weapons and America’s absurdly large and sophisticated military that will keep this from becoming WWIII.
yang zi
Reads like gibberish to me. Remember, China is a nuclear power, some say 3000 warheads (unlikely, but I hope it does).
lws
Asians must be reminded that Australia is an illegitimate land stolen from Asians (Aussie Aborigines are Asians too) by their colonial forebears. It represents a sore thumb tucked in the midst of the Great Asian Continent. While the rest of Asia is over crowded with humanity, Australia is allowed to pick & choose all the brainy & wealthy Asians to be their citizens. Let Asians not fight among ourselves but take back Australia & divide it among ourselves. The whites can come live in Asia only as guests but never allowed to “possess” any piece of real estate. They should be bought out & shipped back to Europe. There is no such thing as a white Asian country. Would Europeans allow a piece of Asia tucked in the midst of Europe?
yang zi
I think open society, free flow of info, commerce and people are the future, beats your vision.
EAM
Does you argument also extend to Russia, the most powerful European country in Asia. If your logic means pushing them back accross the Urals, you might fnd that a challenge….:)
Reason
NICE… this is the first actual post I’ve seen for Asians laying claim to Australia…
For sure, I’ve been expecting them and there will no doubt be more as the geopolitical soup heats up in the coming years
No doubt, Gavin Menzies will become the Go To Guy for historical fact sooner or later….
EAM
I would not take this kind of nonesense too seriously. There is quite a bit of it on Chinese websites and blogs ranging from proposals to occupy Australia and take the mines and farms, colonise the Ganges valley and throw the Russians out of Siberia. It is however unusual to see it on an English language websites. Some of it is quite racially loaded. Still, looking at it positively, it means that issues like this are debate vigorously among Chinese and they do not just follow the party line – and they have their crazies just like we do.
ari
Beijing has not gone around signing defense treties or alliances. Why is Washington going around do as such? How can it has the temerity to talk about peace when it is going around iniating aggression and threats at the same time. Hypocritical doesn’t even begin to describe Washington.
Canberra and New Delhi is going to be sucked in to another Washington’s “Korea war” or “Vietnam”. Beijing has shown no aggression and seeks peace. Why do you, like Peter, deny “Jesus” when accused by bystanders to the the Roman soldiers of being a friend of “Jesus”? You have no spine nor courage to confront a bully Washington seeking a fight against a peaceful China by demanding to know where you stand.
I never thought I’d see the day when Anglo-Saxons like Australia become cowards and cannot no longer tell right from wrong. I begin to doubt now their claim that they are neither racist nor tribal stands.
Honestly, on grounds of principles, they should cease sending trade delegations to China nor ask their Embassy officials to promote sales of Australian commodities, goods and services.
yang zi
Australians are of course pushed into this, with willingness in some. I think it is a move may isolate Australia in Asia.
Even though China should refuse to play the game, it should respond by increasing defense spending dramatically. after all, China’s security environment has deteriorated.
China need to build a nuclear arsenal on the same level as Russia.
samuel welsh
interesting yet long winded, china must be stoped boost aussie ,usa ,india
and jobs in other countries too,cut china off its a needless bloodsucker
tourism and students studying english is our only real benifit.
capatal windbags wasting national money with china and selling our jobs
are top terrible criminals who should be in prision.
John Chan
The article revealed disturbing trend in the last paragraph, “Washington should be aware that the ground is starting to shift, with multilateral venues and arrangements increasingly looking like the Asia-Pacific’s preferred approach to thorny issues.” Does it mean the USA is no longer a reliable back stopper? And all those nations in Asia-Pacific have to figure out a way to band together to survive the pressure from a rising China? It is really telling, indeed appearance is deceiving.
It is natural for Australia to push such hostile alliance against China, as an outpost of Anglo-Saxon empire in a sea of not-my-kind; Australia has to take actions for self preservation. Making India, Philippines and Vietnam as its shield is just logical steps to take based on geopolitics.
For the nations that are duped into such alliance as cannon fodders or shield should look after their owner interests too, they should not become the victims of snake-oil salesman. In this tripartite defense pact, India is obviously the fall guy; India should ask the USA and Australia what is in it for India. India should ask for F-22, F-35, Uranium, etc. for free to join such pack.
Zulu
When are they going to give freedom to Tibet!!!
Liang1a
Quote from the article:
Perhaps the most controversial move by Canberra occurred last month, when Barack Obama and Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard agreed to establish a U.S. base in northern Australia, which would station 2,500 marines. As expected, Beijing protested this move, accusing the United States of engaging in “cold war mentality.”
————————————-
The establishment of a US marine base in Australia has promted Indonesia and Malaysia to move closer to China. Indonesia fears Australia the most. So as Australia forms an alliance with the US and India, Indonesia feels it has to counter this with closer relations with China. India is also an anti-Muslim country. As such an alliance amongst US-Australia-India strkes fear into the two Muslim countries in the region. If the US is trying to contain China, then it is obvious that this silly move has backfired on it. Rather than creating a solid alliance against China, the US is now breaking up such an ASEAN NATO against the Chinese USSR. As China increases its relationship with Laos and Cambodia in addition to closer ties with Indonesia and Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand will start to edge away from an anti-Chinese alliance. So essentially the ASEAN has fallen apart. And with Malaysia and Indonesia on China’s side the Malacca St. will be secured for China. Then China can move against Philippines and Vietnam and even take on the US without fear of being shut out of the Malacca St.
And even if the US naval vessels can shut Chinese ships out of the Malacca St., China can use the Sunda St. between Java and Sumatra so long as Indonesia is friendly to China. Of course, China can always use its growing naval power to force its passage through either the Malacca St. or the Sunda St. But with the alliance with Indonesia and Malaysia it would be much easier. So it seems the US has made a very bad move which ended up helping China.
dopey
It’s understandeable a recent ex-military leadership nation like Indonesia would increase it’s military, it’s in shambles for starters and the military leadership still has alot of influence. (don’t forget the $$$)
But the idea that it’s response to a threat from Australia or even the U.S, is laughable. Australia has gone out of it’s way to accommodate Indonesia and their relationship has never been stronger. U.S investment in Indonesia is high. So Indonesia becoming an ally of China is excessive, their persecution of Chinese Indonesians reveals their hatred of chinese hegemony over them. I don’t know why this is the case, but it’s there and chinese bribes to government officials will only stir the pot.
This will also not be a military alliance, India won’t be sticking her neck out for anybody It’s an attempt to create greater diplomatic ties, so India’s softpower ranking is increased. They need to exit their isolationist bubble.
Girish
@John Chan
Caste System is a problem in India (acknowledged) but you (the one with little knowledge about India) must understand that the problem is getting eradicated with growing education, awareness etc and openness into politics.
Today in India, under privileged people are sitting on top political seats and upper caste people vote for them.
Also with the help of reservations into educations and jobs, level playing has already been created for underprivileged people.
So highlighting this point every time by you when you get out of arguments don’t make sense just for the sake of your Anti India interests.
shen liang
Wow. I hit the trifecta: bad cop, good cop, and cop whose hat fits loosely.
@John Chan
“What is wrong with hanging big red banner to remind and encourage? Which nation and company do not hang banner to encourage?”
With these questions, you merely show how limited your understanding is. While in other countries red banners may very occasionally be employed to announce some events, in China they are posted everywhere, on the median along thoroughfares, covering university campuses, in communities, on military bases, all telling people what to believe and how to act. It’s ridiculous! Of course, it is a shameless practice of paternalism, giving orders to the rabble and directing them like they are sheep, but it is “the norm” in China, and that’s why you are only left to ask the question, “Where doesn’t this happen?” You really don’t know, do you? My best friend’s father is a high ranking officer in the PLA, and once he was invited to West Point to observe the academy’s method of education. When they arrived, the first thing his colleague marveled at…was the absence of red banners telling everyone what to do.
@Yangzi
“sheng Liang, the debat on this site is about China’s foreign relations, of course it is about foreign country and China, not about the good and bad of China’s government, why do they want to critizing CCP?”
Yangzi, there are times when you really seem to miss the point so badly that it must be intentional, when you really seem to make yourself blind. Here you fall into the China/Waiguo divide. China is a foreign country, too. Debates on this site are not only about China’s relationships to “foreign countries”, but about China’s policies and actions. There is no reason why the CCP should be left out of the conversation, particularly not when it plays a key role in forming the relationships about which you intend to speak.
So if they are not wu mao and just “hard working” Chinese, according to your theory, where do they find all this time?
@Huang
There’s a simple way to answer the meaningless tripe you’ve just written: tell me what I’ve said that involves “deceptive and dishonest allegations”? You guys never answer the key questions. If you can’t tell me what those deceptive and dishonest allegations are, clearly you are the one practicing them.
“Remember another thing, I still doubt if you ever been to China or your relatives are in China or if you are even a Chinese person.”
There’s only one way to find out: test me. I’m certain I’ll be more of a problem for you when you find out that I am Chinese, than I am now.
a_canadian_observer
@shen liang: It’s chinese like you that china needs, to gain a bright future and respect from the world. china is big and has all the potential to be a “big, moral brother” in the region, but the path doesn’t indicate so. Although, I still have hope because of people like you.
BTW, I bet you John Chan has never been to china other than HongKong. And Huang, he just dances around the issue(s). His next move is to quote Sun Tzu, and his last move is low-class words.
All those 3 a war mongers. They badly represent china.
John Chan
@a_Canadian_observer,
For a bright future the world needs people like you to stop from spreading toxic baseless fabricated stories on the Internet. Jealousy, resentment and bad mouthing will not get ill wisher anywhere.
Making meaningful contribution is way more useful to promote peace and prosperity for the world, on the hand making meaningless cheap shot is detrimental to the name of Canada as well as the world peace.
Reason
John Chan is not in Asia
Maybe Europe or US …. unless he only posts at night after work
John Chan
@Reason,
To defend China from unfair character sabotage, sacrificing after office hours and midnight oil is worthwhile.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: We need your expert/insider’s inputs at the following topic…
http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2011/12/03/return-of-chinas-milk-issue/#respond
John Chan
@a_canadian_observer,
Japan is selling radiation poisoned tea leaves, rice, mushroom, baby formula, etc. in China. STEP has just recalled 400,000 can of them. We need your “expert” opinion on this unscrupulous deed.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan:
“@a_canadian_observer,
Japan is selling radiation poisoned tea leaves, rice, mushroom, baby formula, etc. in China. STEP has just recalled 400,000 can of them. We need your “expert” opinion on this unscrupulous deed.”
I have 2 issues with you:
1. This is focusing on china, why mention Japanese?
2. I need you to provide credible info before I can provide you “expert” opinion.
Huang
@shen liang,
There are a lot of pretenders(fail to speak from a clear perspective)on this site. All lack the basic courage and dignity to criticize China as a nation,the CCP as China’s only political party,and the Chinese people on occasions brought about by mis-leading articles and un-journalistic news reportings paved the way(they often have no idea what to criticize until those stories were published-directing opinions away from one thing and straight at China) for the kind of trash written against the Chinese(government,the party,and some elements in society).
Test you ? Now, that is self-explainatory isn’t it ? I would love to hear more from you and I am still very much doubt you could be of any problem for me. How can you be a problem for me besides putting out contradicting viewpionts against what I have written. You see, there bloggers on this site thinking they can win a debate or an argument base on their own words or just providing a link(again,if you believe everything you see on the internet,someone has made a sucker out of you.)I prefer not to engage in that sort of things. I am NOT participating in the discussions to win or to lose and winning and losing doesn’y mean a thing.
Finally, I would be very interested in hearing much from you regarding all the wrong,bad,not-so-good,not-so-bad things that you feel that China’s Communist party is responsible for provided you should be honest and not under any emotional hatreds toward the only party China ever has that is NOT PERFECT but not so bad at running one large,complicated(I know,it means trouble),and unique in the entire World.
So many negatives remarks made against the CCP and barely a few were with substance and truths.
Reason
@Huang
Engage the points dude….
The CCP is an evil, foreign, government that has consistently trashed Chinese culture in its tenure at the top of China It is self serving and keeps the greater population of China hobbled in order to further its agenda of self rule. It has no moral base and it’s the principle reason the the break down in any moral culture in China. After generations of merciless campaigns led by sadistic sycophantic leaders the CCP to this day continues to wreak havoc on them minds of ordinary, law abiding, honest Chinese people, who just want to do an honest days work and see their family prospser and be happy
It is the biggest, murderous gang that has ever existed, killing more than 80million human beings in its time at the top.
These aren’t baseless slants – these are FACTS.
Time to seek truth from facts Huang… if you look at the facts then you will see the truth of the CCP
John Chan
@shen liang,
It seems any Chinese way does not conform your adored Westpac’s way of doing business is evil and shameless practice of paternalism. I guess to you everything Chinese do must submit to the Westpac for approval otherwise it is giving orders to the rabble and directing them like they are sheep.
If what you have said is truth, how can China has a growth unprecedented in the history, meanwhile your adored perfect Westpac is in such mess and on the decline?
Millions of Chinese died to fight against the imperialism yoke imposed on China by the Westpac, hundred some years struggle to return China’s dignity and independence, yet you want China to give up those hard earned dignity and independence, and return to the shackles and yoke the predatory imperialist Westpac waiting for China? Only Wang Jingwei, Yuan Shikai and Wu Sangui would say you are criticizing China constructively.
The techniques the Westpac used for brain washing are way superior; China’s red banner to them is amateurish.
shen liang
@John Chan
“It seems any Chinese way does not conform your adored Westpac’s way of doing business is evil and shameless practice of paternalism.”
As I said to Huang, John Chan: it’s obvious who is practicing “deceptive and dishonest allegations” on this thread. Reread the paragraph I wrote to you and see that *hanging banners everwhere telling people how they should act, think, and CONFORM* is precisely the practice of paternalism. I did not instruct you how to think or how to act, I merely stated that if you find big red banners giving you daily orders “normal” and something that every country does, it’s clear you really don’t understand much about the wider world. Moreover, your use of the world evil reveals once again that you are merely reactionary.
“If what you have said is truth, how can China has a growth unprecedented in the history, meanwhile your adored perfect Westpac is in such mess and on the decline?”
I don’t adore “The West” (you should really realize you are talking about different nations with different histories). I simply don’t have association disease. I don’t believe having respect for people as thinking beings, ones who may feel it is insulting to constantly be given directives of what to do, how to act, what to believe, is something that should be exclusively associated with “the West”. Nor do I think it contributes either favorably or unfavorably to economic decisions. It is a matter of ethics. China’s growth is a positive, but that doesn’t mean anything the government does contributes to it, and it doesn’t mean all things are acceptable so long as China continues to see growth economically. You speak as though herding people with red banners must be associated with China’s growth. Nonsense.
“Millions of Chinese died to fight against the imperialism yoke imposed on China by the Westpac, hundred some years struggle to return China’s dignity and independence, yet you want China to give up those hard earned dignity and independence, and return to the shackles and yoke the predatory imperialist Westpac waiting for China? Only Wang Jingwei, Yuan Shikai and Wu Sangui would say you are criticizing China constructively.”
Again, total reactionary nonsense, as though you are still living at the end of the Qing dynasty! Come into the present! That said, Wu Sangui really is a problem for Chinese history. Chinese see him as a traitor who switched sides (twice, actually), but we can only do this by 1) regarding China as an ethnic nation defined by the Ming, and 2) recognizing the Qing as a foreign power, which is difficult because Qing conquests are the basis of China’s claims on many territories. So was Wu Sangui a traitor, or did he help “China” capture Xinjiang and Tibet by helping the Qing?
Actually, I view my constructive criticism in the manner of WeiJingsheng. China needs a fifth modernization in the sphere of politics, and it should be noted that China’s growth conincides with the continued expression of this concern. Chinese people work hard only because we have this lingering hope, we know this change has to come parallel to economic growth. If the government wants to harness their work to make China powerful, they should ask the people what kind of power we wish to be in the world in which we have to live. What anxieties do we have and how can we recognize the anxieties of those around us. Take a look at the way your words harm China’s relationships with people from other countries. Ask yourself how you are benefiting China.
“The techniques the Westpac used for brain washing are way superior; China’s red banner to them is amateurish.”
It’s not a question of techniques; it’s a question of attitude toward governance and the imposition of political will. China’s red banners show that the government believes it is right to tell everyone what to do, and it is willing to saturate all public life with images of control and “guidance”. I recognize you are embarrassed by this, as we all are.
@Huang
So, you still haven’t told me, where have I uttered those “deceptive and dishonest allegations” of which you speak? What were they, exactly? By not answering these questions, you prove you are the one uttering deceptive and dishonest allegations. I can’t imagine why you think I’d respond to you until you answer my earnest question with valid proof.
John Chan
@shen liang,
Denying what you said is really poor manner in debate, from the start you keep on telling what China should do in order to submit to the predatory imperialist Westpac’s dominance. Even using red banners in China has caused you such wrath. Did I tell Japan they cannot use red banners?
The word “evil” is from your comment, in case you have forgotten, it seems you constantly forget what you have said and make up accusations on the go. Labeling others do not agree with your as reactionary is another no no in debate, it is a standard technique from Dick Cheney School of Darth Vader.
Denying what you are, a Westpac lackey, is yellow and lack of integrity. Half hearted lackey will not win approval from his masters.
Rewriting history is the expertise of Japanese who are using creative revisionist history writing to white wash their sins and war crimes since Meiji. You can twist and turn, but the Japanese ugly past will not be covered by your fancy twisted stories.
Of course you agree with Wang Jingwei, because you are the same kind. You better ask Japanese to repent their war crimes and rid of its Fascist nature, so that it could co-exist with its neighbors peacefully like Germany. Let RyuKyu free and get out of Daioyu Island.
Legitimize Westpac’s predatory imperialistic techniques under the cover of governance and political will, yet shamelessly interfere China’s internal affairs because you do not like the color red, indeed I am embarrassed by such shameless behavior of a blogger surrogating a Chinese screen name.
shen liang
@ John Chan
“Denying what you said is really poor manner in debate, from the start you keep on telling what China should do in order to submit to the predatory imperialist Westpac’s dominance. Even using red banners in China has caused you such wrath.”
Wow. Clearly suggesting the CCP should no longer use red banners has caused you such wrath! Whereas I said it was ridiculous–you know, to be laughed at.
So stating that the CCP’s should no long use red banners everywhere as a reminder that big daddy wants you to do this and think this, you believe this=”submit to the predatory imperialist Westpac’s dominance”? Are you that far gone?
“The word “evil” is from your comment, in case you have forgotten, it seems you constantly forget what you have said and make up accusations on the go.”
Actually, I’ve looked above and I can’t find where I’ve used the word “evil”. I can’t fathom why I would in this context, for we are not talking about Changchun. Will you point where I used the word evil in this debate? Are you just making up accusations on the go?
“Denying what you are, a Westpac lackey, is yellow and lack of integrity. Half hearted lackey will not win approval from his masters.
Rewriting history is the expertise of Japanese who are using creative revisionist history writing to white wash their sins and war crimes since Meiji. You can twist and turn, but the Japanese ugly past will not be covered by your fancy twisted stories.
Of course you agree with Wang Jingwei, because you are the same kind. You better ask Japanese to repent their war crimes and rid of its Fascist nature, so that it could co-exist with its neighbors peacefully like Germany. Let RyuKyu free and get out of Daioyu Island.”
John Chan, this is simply foolish abuse. Dreadful, completely unfounded, off-on-a-tangent abuse. This is what you excel at. You clearly agree with me that the CCP throws up ridiculous red banners everywhere to “guide” the people, but for some reason that makes you so angry you have to go and attack Japanese, who have no relation to our debate. Apparently, you don’t even know who Wei Jingsheng is. Now clean off your monitor, please.
John Chan
@shen liang,
What does Wei Jingsheng got to do with the rebutting and rebuffing the smearing and slandering dashed out by the anti-China clique to undermine China? Because you believe Wei Jingsheng so I have to let the anti-China clique to smear and slander China baselessly? You sure have huge hubris, and you are more dictatorial than CCP.
You are confused, you can’t tell the difference between real democracy and imperialism. The Westpac is practicing elected imperialism under the cover of democracy and human rights. Their aim is to cripple China and return China back the era of unequal treaties, so they can suppress and exploit Chinese again.
shen liang
@John Chan
Ah…you are really too far gone for help. You went off on a tangent about Japanese and sounded like you thought Wei Jingsheng and Wang Jingwei were the same person.
So you and Huang cannot point to where I called this situation “evil” or where precisely I uttered “deceptive and dishonest allegations”, despite being asked repeatedly to substantiate your claims? You can’t tell me precisely what I’ve said is “smearing” and “fabricated”? You’ve been challenged to do so. If you can’t, you simply out yourselves as bladders of hot air.
Reason
*******************
VERY INTERESTING
*******************
There’s a great dynamic going on here… which plays right into the CCP handbook on shaping thought on the internet….
Firstly, the likes of Huang and JC are here to offer the CCP version of things… but they will NEVER engage in specific arguments with westerners…. only offer CCP alternatives… NEVER engage directly in refuting or rebuffing figures or points of view. This is an official directive and is guidance from CCP
The points offered by the likes of JC and Huang aim only to temper, not refute the rants of “know it all” westerners
Cus, at the end of the day, the CCP doesn’t give a hoot what a bunch of foreigners think about them.
HOWEVER —- We also have the likes Shen Liang – now, according to CCP directives, this is a very different animal indeed to deal with and is a much more serious case. You saw, that the CCPers were buzzing on him like a flash and the tact was very different. First, question that he is authentic Chinese, secondly, question his loyalties to the Party and the country. If he still persists with his objectionable opinions, which Shen Liang clearly did, adopt a more friendly but firm approach, try to bring him in so he can be eventually co-opted or at least uncovered.
John Chan
@Reason,
Shen liang and you are the same kind, both smear and slander with fabricated stories, put words in others mouths and character sabotage relentlessly, all those are the standard techniques used by the CIA and MI6 to undermine others and the prelude to bombing and killing the hapless nations into total destruction in the name of democracy and human rights.
a_canadian_observer
@Reason: “VERY INTERESTING” in deed! Have you also noticed that the “low powered” Frank, Sinodefender etc… all disappeared at once? And now there appeared some ultra-nationalists as well?
John Chan
@Girish,
You need to be honest to yourself; otherwise India is never going eradicate the caste discrimination. Dalits are restricted to dirty jobs and limited education, Indians refused to reveal their castes to the censors, lower castes got raped and burnt because they overstepped their caste boundaries while perpetrators got off free, even outside of India the way the higher caste treats their lower caste is scary. Have you ever shake Dalits’ hand?
I just remind bloggers to look into the mirror first before they smear China with fabricated stories.
LIM
INSPITE of China helping the australian economy by buying their natural resources,they turn around and invite the indians and usa to join an alliance against China,this proves that a white racist ungrateful australian cannot be trusted and do business with. CHINA should immediately punish the aussies by stop buying any raw material and resources from australia.
THIS is a hard lesson to learn for the Chinese that all white european does not play a fair game,and are still racist in their hearts and now they are inviting the indians and ofcourse the evil jap on their side. AND to those chinese ladies who marry a white guy do not forget,you become a waste by marrying the white people,because do not be a fool,they hate your race in their hearts and wish ill to your motherland.
a_canadian_observer
@LIM: Congratulations on speaking your mind! You represent china very well.
Cyanfield
The United States is uklikely to be sidelined in the Asian multilateral processes, unless Washington itself chooses to be so. East Asian security order cannot do without US strategic presence and diplomatic engagement. ASEAN-centred regional security arrangement is underpinned by US-led security and strategic network in the region; it cannot replace the latter. When China’s strategic power grows further, the United States will become more indispensable. On the diplomatic side, Washington and ASEAN capitals have to work in partnership; neither side can constrain Beijing diplomatically in regional security without the other.
Beijing must stabilise its relations with Delhi. It’s not impossible India will forge a closer defence partnership with America and Australia on a trilateral basis. It all depends on how Beijing will chart its course on the next stage. The Chinese leadership has certainly heeded the lessen of the recent diplomatic defeat; but it is unlikely to return to its pre-2008 strategic posture.
Dopey-
“U.S led security” is a problem nowadays. After the Iraq and Afghanistan debacle (and let’s not forget Vietnam) I doubt any asian nations will be trusting the U.S with leading their security against chinese military aggression. The U.S seems to have only one setting and that’s fully automatic, not semi auto.
Instead it will be wiser to allow Australia to do the leading, while the U.S and other asian allies will provide the muscle.