David Cohen and Peter Martin speak with the Director of African Studies at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, He Wenping. This is the first part of an interview conducted on behalf of partner site the Lowy Interpreter.
Angelica asks: Aid from China to African countries has been generous and forthcoming ever since the founding of 'New China'. But China is often criticized by the world about paying for political benefits (such as support on the Taiwan issue) and resources in Africa. Since the very beginning, Sino-Africa relations took a strong ideological thrust. In 2011, democratic movements in Africa are quite active, so now, is “ideological trust” still strong?
I think it's normal strong. The first period of China-African relations were very rich in ideology, because Mao and Zhou at that time were more interested in third world theory. So they offered very generous support to African countries, without considering economic benefits. A typical example is the Tanzania-Zambia railway — it cost almost one tenth of China’s foreign reserves at that time.
Since early 1980s, because China has begun its economic drive, and we were also trying to lure foreign investment, all the focus has been on economic development, so ideology has gradually faded away since the 1980s. So now China has been labeled an economic animal by the Western media. Actually, it's not true. I think our relationship is very balanced: political, economic, and cultural. President Hu Jintao has made six visits to Africa – can you imagine the junior Bush going to Africa six times?
Steve asks: In real (2008 price) terms, China received almost $71 billion in net ODA (official development assistance) between 1979 and 2009. To what degree, if any, does Ms He believe that China's previous experiences as a major recipient of foreign aid influences its engagement as a donor to emerging countries today?
Definitely. As China, we now have a dual role we can play in the development system, and also a dual identity. On the one hand, we are a recipient country, and on the other we are becoming a donor. So we have accumulated tremendous experience about being a good recipient, and I think we can share this with African countries.
So in the (2005 Paris Declaration on Aid Effectiveness) they mention five principles for guiding aid, like mutual accountability, managing for results, and ownership. So on ownership, I think China has done extremely well. If USAID says “Oh, I will build a school over here!” but we have already developed our rural development policy in that province and we don't need a new school, we should get it into a different place. Normally our assistance to Africa is demand-driven. So we are not going and saying we are going to put a school here — they put their request first, so they say they want this school, hospital, and then we dispatch our team to do the feasibility study.
I can add another example: In China, we don't want foreign assistance if it comes with conditionality. For example, with the World Bank, there's no conditionality saying you must change your political system, you must set up an NGO, whatever. So when we offer our assistance it’s no strings attached.
Peter and David ask: How do you monitor aid to make sure it’s used properly?
China's aid to Africa is based on projects, not budget support. Traditional donors usually put their money into the recipient’s budget, so maybe it’s easier for corruption to happen. So if there’s a plan to build a hospital in a country, the money won’t go through that country’s financial system. It will be delivered directly to the company that’s building the project.
The original version of this article appeared here.
Reddit
Digg
StumbleUpon
Delicious
Technorati
Yahoo
Google
Plurk
Huang
Modern China or a “Rising China” as many have been noticing more and more in recent memory is actually a gigantic task if not a peerless(never before and never will be)undertaking in building and sustainably maintaining the decent living conditions for the largest population on Earth. While China is the World’s second largest economy from an outside observer’s point of view, China’s un-precedented undertakings are merely the beginning of a continuous span of catching ups to the tasks. Similar to Buddha’s reflections when he said,”I do not see what has been done; I only see what remains to be done.” not too many centuries ago.
Whether China’s Africa relations are viewed in positive or negative light,the true nature of the undertakings will ultimately be judged by the merits on the ground,not in the “thin air”. As we all know,and again as Buddha understood long ago,”In a controversy, the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth,and have begun striving for ourselves.”
In wrapping up, China and Africa will both enjoy the fruits of the endless hardworks done today and tomorrow since “It is better to travel well than to arrive.” again as Buddha reflected from his Worldly observations.
Reason
@Huang
Totally agree with you
Now, all we need is the CCP to get out of the way of the Chinese people and the dreams of a prosperous China will come even quicker.
Huang
@reason,
Indeed, what you have in mind are dreams and fantasies and whether your intended dreams are for the better or not make no difference.
Keep dreaming!
Reason
@Huang
Hmmmmmmm…. tell that to the likes of Mubarek, Gadaffi and Asad….
They all dreamt that the public loved them…. turns out the truth wasn’t so sweet.
All the time they were telling the public that they were protecting them from chaos… but in reality the bringer of chaos was the regimes itself and the public only needed protecting from the governments gangsters.
Just like the CCP…
The CCP says it is the only thing that holds China together and can guarantee China’s success… but in reality – it’s the CCP that keeps China hobbled under a hidden reign of terror and it would be the CCP that would unleash chaos on the Chinese People if it ever felt threatened again –
My friend…. you are dreaming if you think there is any future other than being put to the sword for the CCP…..
Huang
@reason,
If you feel agitated over my reminders(not to have too much day dreams) and started going wild, thats exactly what I would expect from someone like you.
You have a whole lot to learn. Mainly on how to accept what is true and fair instead of what you feel should be.
Listen to yourself once in a while. I am sure you will find your remarks are full of wishies and wackies.
Realities and truths are never pleasant especially for people who recognize their wishes and fantasies over everything else. In essence, what is real to everyone else is “CCP fakes” to them because they have already put themselves in a box called “fantasy-land”.
Huang
@reason,
Let me enlighten you a bit on Tunesia,Egypt,Libya,Syria,Yemen….. Obviously, you should be able to tell that NONE of these countries have a Communist style political syetem. In fact,these countries are or were friends or trading partners of the US and the EU until the protests and subsequent breakdowns of governments.
As expected,the US and EU were quick to distant themselves and even went so far as to hasten the end of their governments(Lybia in particular).
I am sure you have not a clue why the protests were manifesting and spreading quickly from one Arab country to the next. There must be some ligitamate reason behind the large numbers of people turning out and demanding the depost of their leaders and the reason is no different than what now exists in the West-its the economy(jobs,inflations,service cuts….).
There are other forces within these countries who saw an opportunity to advance their own cause in the midst of the chaos. By taking advantage of this golden opportunity,they hope they would be able to put themselve at the helm once the establisments were torn down. Of course,what will become of these countries once all the dusts are settled is anyone’s guess.
You will fall if you mis-step. You are un-able to stand up-right if you are weak or not confidant. You will slam your face to the ground if your legs are not coordianted with your mind. You will face the blade if you don’t know how to rule.
The people will turn against their rulers if the rulers are not up to task.
Now! Lets get back to China. Against all odds,the Chinese Communist Party defeated the KMT,went through the dark hours of the Cultural Revolution,Stood back up and launched the Reforms of 1979 under the guidance priciple of “Socialism with Chinese Characterics” initiated by Comrade Deng XiaoPing who was also a victimof the Cultural Revolution.
China does not boast about its political system as superior or effective than other structures. For that, its already proved to be superior merely on the merit of capable of tolerance of other systems without fears and ill-wishes.
In sobering you up, it is in your best interest to stop dreaming about the collapse of the Chinese political system because you will be under the blade/rusted sword when you least expected while fantasizing under the false impression of freedom.
Huang
@reason,
CCP’s greatness to continue to be a pain in your(you know what)for a long time to come. Be prepare to get frustrated and irritated because more will be coming like a rough chili-pepper whether you like it or not.
You see, its not up to you to decide. Its up to the CCP.
a_canadian_observer
@Huang: Only time will tell, buddy. I recall at one point in time people used to think the Soviet Union’s block was unbreakable.
Jimmy
If you have recently lived in Africa, you will find out how China is conducting its business there. The process is pretty simple actually.
1. Buying the government elites in those African countries.
2. Let the elites controlling and forcing of their people to do heavy labour jobs and low paying works for the Chinese.
3. No infrastructure or educational investments involved for local people.
4. Once all the local raw materials have been sucked dried and being shipped back to China, the Chinese leaves.
John Chan
@Jimmy,
You are regurgitating what the White colonists had done in Africa since industrial revolution, and you should add selling Africa locals as commodities in the list too.
Smearing others baselessly due to jealousy and resentment is a wrong thing to do, and it is against the teaching of Christianity.
Huang
@Jimmy,
I am very much doubt you ever been to Africa merely from the lack of information you put forward in your five sentence story. It sounds nearly identical to what the BBC recently broadcasted on China/Chinese investments in Africa. If the BBC and your version of the same narrow stories were to be told thirty years ago, some people might buy in to the stories. Today, these stories are more self-slapping remarks than news story due to the readily availability of informations spreading as fast as they can be via the World-Wide-Web(internet).
It would be more helpful if you can somehow come up with a story that is at least have some credibility. That way,you would be more than welcome to post them here and the Chinese would even appreciate your constructive contributions in exposing all the bad things so that good things can be created as a result.
typhoon
Your are simply distorted the facts and trying to discredit the good works that the Chinese are contributing to Africa economic development.
What you are saying remind me of past European colonists conduct in Africa.
For point No.2 you are contradicting to what the Western media were reporting.
For the past three years they had reported the Chinese investment in Africa infrastructure did not create sufficent jobs and benefits to the local people.
They claimed that it was mainly done by cheap Chinese import labourers.
Adam T.
Hello Jimmy,
Hello Jimmy,
Though I don’t have any issue with Chinese (and really love Chinese foods), but I’m inclined to agree with your information regarding China’s resources searching related activities in Africa; especially on getting the natural resources out of this continent.
The major problem with Africa as the whole is corruption. In those mostly poor countries, money could easily buy anyone and anything. In spite of some of the African nationalist’s efforts to protect their countries’ resources, however, unfortunately, their countries’ leaders have already taken all the bribery money, so, basically very little anyone else could do.
For everyone else information, see the link below for a hint.
(Africa will not put up with a colonialist China):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/07/china-exploitation-africa-industry
Lung Sha Shou
You have it EXACTLY CORRECT.
It is neo-colonialism on steroids.
The list of horrific abuses is very long.
They are doing exactly what you say. Even the TYRANT Hu Jintao says “just business, no politics” – the “China is so wonderful and just wants to help” garbage avoids the fact that it is ruthless self interest, with the iron fist of other dictators. Many Many Many Africans have bemoaned and complained of the increase in repression and violence – facilitated by the AMORAL Chinese.
The apologists and protectors of China (Its no so much China as their fascist totalitarian leaders – plus the elites that benefit) have either NO VALUES, or selectively apply them – they cannot sustain any systematic argument based on principles because principles abd values mean nothing. They are doing what they are told, assisting China to bide its time until their strength is overwhelming.
You are UTTERLY CORRECT – you have a moral compass and decent human values – Do not let the unprinciples whines of the China lobby put you off – I am sure there has been an occasional benefit in Africa to the people, but it is offset, for example by the support of the GENOCIDAL JANAJAWEED, or the government that controlled them.
China has NO PRINCIPLES except self interest and are worse than any previous colonial regime. The usual suspects might cry out, but they would be demolished in any argument that was based on any value system because while they might use morality as an argument sometimes, they can never survive its application to China’s actions.
China seeks to become THE HEGEMON and enslave others, by locking down their resources for a paltry amount, they are already doing this to the Africans, who are badly Governed.
Lung Sha Shou
Jimmy is spot on, I would add the destruction of local business by the import of ultra cheap Chinese products made in a country where any form of protest results in beatings or disappearances. Know what “fried squid” is? – Its the way your face looks when the People’s Armed Police of their thugs beat you up when you complain of unpaid wages or annything else the apologists never care to admit. Hey Huang have a go at defending the Chinese Coal industry safety record. I suppose its fine to subject other people to the same thing is it?
Trying to make a virtue out of no conditionality is a disgusting moral obscenity.
What this mouthpiece doesn’t admit, like all the other Regime mouthpieces is the fact that China offers its UN veto almost to the highest bidder.
That this may involve the practical support of a genocidal regime or a disgusting tyrant like Robert Mugabe is of no consequence. No its absolutely fine by China if an 80+ year old man locks down the future wealth of his country and hangs on to power for which he has no legitimacy, and slaughters people in the process. Just as it was and is fine for China to do business with its fellow murderous regime in the Sudan and use its UN veto to block international action against it.
In this in most things China is surpassing the West in its neo-colonial disregard for the suffering or welfare of people and practices its own special China-style disregard for the environment.
The usual apologists do their job relying on a disengaged and dumbed down consumers whilst China builds its war machine.
Trying to present it all as mutual co-prosperity is about as meaningful as the Japanese saying the same about its behaviour in Asia.
People’s early lives affect their development and thinking – The Chinese people are struggling to think clearly about much at all because the thinking has been done for them by the party through editing all that they see and read. To their credit the really wise ones know they are being had by the party elites, many of the others (like the Regime cheer squad that add so much misinformation to these pages and could not cope with or stand a proper debate)just sell themselves for the benefits that have accrued to various groups. The Regime is a clever beast and buys the support of the immoral and the misguided, inciting hatred, which is deep in its veins.
John Chan
@Lung Sha Shou,
You have such talent that can regurgitate lengthy hated words without any substance. Did you ever read your own writing? Do you find your writing is rather stressful? If China suppresses reporting, where do you and all those anti-China writers and bloggers get their evidence, such accidents in coal mines, 2-year old child traffic accidents, etc. to bash China relentlessly? Do you agree distorting China’s openness to support your smearing of China is unfair? And such action will discredit yourself as ill faith bigots?
You are lashing out at China because China refuses to interfere African’s internal affairs like the predatory Westpac with their condescending arrogance, are you saying that Westpac’s bombing and killing are the only way to treat Africans? Do you agree those methods are cruel and uncivilized? What makes you think Africans do not deserve respect and equal treatment like all of us?
Indeed “People’s early lives affect their development and thinking”, what has happened to you? You are full of hatred toward humanity, your hatred like outburst volcano out to destroy everything in your path.
Watcher
I don’t know how you read this, but to me this seems like a criticism of CCP rule of China and not China itself. Why do you CCP appologists always equate the two? Is that what CCP tells you to do? (of course we know the answer is “Yes”)
Huang
If you have a problem with the CCP, thats too bad. The reality is that the CCP will be around and will continue to be a pain in your….. for a long time to come.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: I guess this is your debate “with chinese characteristic” style!
Lung Sha Shou
THAT is their attitude to most things.
That is why the “peaceful rise” talk is a lie.
They actively encourage their so-o-o well informed population to nurse grievances and hatreds.
Its always a question of in your face and “f- you if you don’t like it.”
Always wanting to “teach you a lesson” for disagreeing & never respecting others.
Sadly, most are blind to the evil inherent in their position on most things.
I am afraid evil is not too strong a word.
Lung Sha Shou
China does not hesitate to interfere, arm repressive regimes, offer them its UN veto for protection, or train them in crushing profession.
Your depiction of China as some kind of goody-two-shoes is a lie.
By your absent value system you would doubtless describe the genocide of the jews is gentle, lovely, sweet language – It was a repulsive crime.
China’s actions and behaviour also constitute a repulsive crime.
I am better informed than most, and read a great deal more and have done for over thirty years. I know what the Chinese government does and how it behaves, so it is not the case for me that I am talking about a country which is in any way normal or decent.
If someone broke into your female relative’s house and aborted her 8 month old fetus because it was against the rules – even if she had agreed to pay the fine (under the rules) would you think that is fine and OK? If you would because your beloved regime does it then there is no point discussing anything, if you think that is a problem, then multiply it by several million across China, and include many many many other wicked and disgusting acts.
What language should one use? “Oh its not very nice” – Sorry not good enough.
You don’t get it, OR you are blind to it – The Actions of the Regime and the CCP are extreme, despite their trying to mask them.
Moral Clarity is something you develop, like humility and knowing there are things you don’t know, and even that your opponent may have some foundation for their point of view – that comes from respect of others – not something the Regime or its supporters ever demonstrate.
A corruptly built school kills many children, corrupt officials practices cover up AIDS deaths and then imprison the parents who protest, thousands of Chinese coal miners die when a little more care would save at least half of them – YOU might say this is OK and should be talked about nicely – IT ISN”T IT IS WICKED like the government in Beijing that is complicit in it all.
lungshashou
Regurgitate?
Thats HILARIOUS coming from a person whose regime has a Minsitry of Propaganda and whose senior officials even say he who controls the past controls the future.
If you don’t have free and independent thought, thats what you get.
Heck, I’ll bet you can rattle off the slogans of the little red book just fine.
If the Cutural revolution was a national catastrophe (Wne Jiaobao & Hu Jintao describes it as such, how come people get shot or sent to Lao Gai Work Camp for resisting it – or are killed?
Of course your people are infallible and should have the power of life and death over their own and other/s right.
Huang
@lss,
“The only real failure in life is NOT to be true to the best one knows.” Said,Buddha…. Also, “The mind is everything. What you think, you become.” Said, Buddha.
Huang
@LSS,
Why should I defend the Chinese coal industry ? The coal industry in China is NOT perfect or not as safe as they should be. Thats totally true.
If you want to criticize China’s government,its political party,its industries,even it people, I am sure you or anyone in this World can find something to complain about all day long. Likewise, if you can’t find anything to criticize, you can always fabricate one and start the same thing all over again.
At the end of the day,its NOT you who decide;its the CCP and the people of China.
May be,it would be of great benifit to you to see China for yourself.
JUSTSAYNO
The economist has a balanced article on Chinese developments in Africa
http://www.economist.com/node/18586448
I think this sentence sums up the relationship between China and Africa well: “China is not a conventional aid donor, but nor is it a colonialist interested only in looting the land.” The difference between the Western colonizers and Chinese expats is that the Western colonizers want to be directly involved with running the local government and rule over the population. The Chinese on the other hand simply want to do business, that’s all.
I think it’s easy to argue that more business in general is better for everyone. There are more choices for consumers and more profits for companies. The lives of the average Chinese improved dramatically due to more business activities. The downside to blind capitalism is exploitation and inequality. However this is the job of the African nations governments.
Aurelius 7
It looks like “John Chan” is one of those political blog watchers who get paid to make comments that soften hardline viewpoints opposing China’s corruption. He’s full of insults and really hasn’t made a point.