The Philippines pushed ASEAN to form a united front over the disputed South China Sea Thursday, presenting a plan for turning the sea into ‘a zone of peace, freedom, friendship and cooperation’ – as long as China scales back its claims to maritime sovereignty.
The proposal, made by Vice President Jejomar Binay at a meeting of ASEAN maritime specialists in Manila, would divide the crowded sea into disputed and non-disputed areas, calling for the demilitarization and shared use of the disputed areas pending a solution. China, which has insisted on bilateral negotiations over the disputed areas, would be unlikely to recognize the agreement, but a united stance from ASEAN countries could make China appear more isolated and make it harder to win concessions. However, as Chinese officials like to remind ASEAN, only four of the regional organization’s ten members have claims to disputed territory (Taiwan has also made claims to the disputed area).
The Philippines would gain legitimacy for its territorial claims if ASEAN accepts the agreement in its current form – the South China Morning Post reports that the proposal recognizes only the Spratly and Paracel Islands as disputed areas, counting the Reed Bank, an oil-rich area over which China and the Philippines clashed in March, as an undisputed part of the Philippines. The area lies within the 200-mile economic zone limit of the Philippines, but is claimed by China as part of a historically sovereign maritime region.
If ASEAN manages to unite over the South China Sea, they will to a great extent have China to thank for their agreement. The nations have competing claims to many parts of the area, such as the Spratly Islands, which are claimed by all four ASEAN nations as well as China and Taiwan, but China’s rising power and increasingly aggressive stance toward territorial disputes has pushed other regional players to look for allies. In the last year, China has become involved in armed standoffs with Japan and Vietnam as well as the Philippines, driving a hunt for support among both regional neighbours and major powers. Japan has moved closer to the United States, with support rising for the US military presence there, while Vietnam announced yesterday an oil exploration agreement with India in disputed waters, which will bring Asia’s other giant into the conflict on Vietnam’s side.
Reddit
Digg
StumbleUpon
Delicious
Technorati
Yahoo
Google
Plurk
Drive by
Let’s cut the BS: forget ASEAN, nothing will be achieved through ASEAN. Instead, China, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, and Singapore should form a “South China Sea Resources Partnership” to coordinate the development of the area together.
yang zi
No, this is a bad idea. China should defend its claim unilaterally.
Tom Tran
Tell me how? easy to be bragging about what one (China) can do, but whether it could afford it is a totally different question. If you couldn’t afford it, better not to raise the bar too high, otherwise pulling back is shameful, which seems inevitable at the moment, given such a high momentum to build a coalition to prevent it from bs claim.
John Chan
@Tom Tran:
Are you sure you do not know that Philippines and Vietnam’s hysteria were caused by China’s enforcement of nine-dotted line in South China Sea lately? Cutting cables, expelling foreign surveying ships, patrolling with bigger law enforcement ships (3000 tons), long range air patrol with J-11 and H-6, etc. just some of the examples China are doing in SCS to enforce the nine-dotted line gradually.
It seems you are not aware any of those activities? Where have you been in the last 12 months?
yang zi
@Tran, why do you care? you think China’s claim is bs anyway.
nirvana
China is going to send, at last, law(?) enforcement ships to the South China Sea. It will be a very big ship, 3000 tons, dixit John Chan.
Please do not confuse the Yuzheng 311 (4450 tons) that participated in recent incidents as a law unforcement ship. From China’s view,
there was no law, anywhere in the 9-dotted line, in the last 12 months.
Bob
yang zi, your comment is indicative of China’s wicked policy of taking what it wants by force. Common sense and a small amount of brains reveals that China has no share of the disputed areas. Look at the map. The Spratly islands are very close to the Philippines and very far from China. You seem to be very confident in your agression. Be careful of stretching your hand out too far lest it be cut off.
Bob
yang zi, you would be a fool to think that we cannot see through China’s trickery and schemes. Pretend to have legitimacy, pretend to be defensive while all the time being offensive, use scare tactics, push forward and then pull back in order to test the opponent’s strength and resolve, and bide your time. By fraud of cheap junk merchandise you sell to the USA you gain much wealth with which you are building up your military. Do not think you will rule the world. You will be stopped.
Huy Duong
That is a great initiative by the Philippines. I hope it will be supported by the other ASEAN countries. I hope the US, India and Japan will support it too.
(I also hope China will support it, but that doesn’t have much of a chance).
Yang zi
China will support it if the disputed area includes all the area claimed by China. Don’t lie about reed banks.
Cyrus
You are the one who should stop lying. Reed bank is Philippine Sovereign Territory and it has inalienable right and possession of it.
yang zi
@Cyrus, you have the full right to say that, and I have the full right to say the same thing, that China has inalienable right and possession of it. this makes it a dispute! hello?
Cyrus
No, since time immemorial those water has been a fishing ground for Filipino’s even before the Spaniards came. We are a maritime National as our Balangays have proved themselves.
That is why Reed Bank is is ours both historically and Legally. They are within our EEZ and they ours as Chinese wants to claim “historically”.
Bob
yang zi, China cannot claim what it does not own. Stay out of areas not yours.
nirvana
The keystone of China’s claims is the “9-dotted line”. If the other claimants do not understand the military value of the “9-dotted line” for China, then they are negotiating against the wind. The “historic rights”, natural resources dispute etc… are just diversions from the real motive. This is military art.
If this is clear, then we should understand also that, to give a clarification of the “9-dotted line” amounts to inviting a military “coup d’état”, for the China government. China military’s honour resides in keeping the ambiguity of the “9-dotted line”, until the time is ripe. Deng Xiaoping taught: “bide our time, conceal our capabilities, until we are ready to act”.
Sergie
Intelligent has reported that China’s navy is lacked of sea battle experience, like the US, Russia and Japan’s. Their space-air-sea commands coordination capability is absolutely weak to none. Mind you, China navy is excellent with killing or making threats to unarmed fisherman; a kind of sea piracy action.
John Chan
@Sergie:
Andrew S. Erickon and Lyle J. Goldstein will say if Pentagon is as ignorant as you are, USA is doomed.
John Chan
@Sergie:
Navy ships are not effective to deal illegal fishing boats and other civilian ships; you need different sizes maritime law enforcement ships to carry out law enforcement properly. That’s why China’s marine law enforcement ships vary from 3000 tons to few hundred tons, and they have a lot of them too. You need to learn from Japanese Coast Guard a lot.
nirvana
@Sergie,
Don’t make the mistake. The PLAN today is a formidable force, behind only the US Navy. It has a seemingly strange behavior in the South Chine Sea because the China government hasn’t yet decided to throw the mask. The problem for the China government is that its “undisputable” 9-dotted line has become today “undefendable”, diplomatically. Therefore, we start to read from Chinese press that “China has been peaceful for too long”! Understand it as, after cable cutting, fishermen killing, it is time for a Cheonan-like incident, or a limited conflict, perhaps via proxies, typically what Deng Xiaoping would say “touching the tiger’s tail”.
John Chan
@nirvana:
I don’t think you are correct about “touching the tiger’s tail,” because it is not practical to touch a moving target and at the same time it does not give you the real feel about the response. I believe the correct idiom is “touching the tiger’s bottom” to see whether the tiger is a paper tiger or not, and you would get the real feel about the response of the tiger, weak, strong, young, etc., then you can react properly.
It seems you got a long way to know about Chinese. Chinese are practical and gutsy.
nirvana
@John Chan,
Thanks for the lesson on Chinese military courage. Last time, the Tiger was turning its back to China and there is Gorilla sitting behind China. What is the situation this time?
John Chan
@nirvana:
I can’t recall China was in a situation you mentioned in the last 60 years, China only found out that USA and its lackeys were paper tigers, Vietnam was an overblown hot air bubble, India was a whining baby, and Japan was not harder than rare earth.
It seems Philippines is competing with Vietnam to be the tiger’s bottom this time, is it right?
yang tsup
china must reliaze that only peaceful cooperation is only way to resolve the dispute, used of military force can be a grave mistake despite the fact of its superior power..
Frank
Chinese people knew that.
That is why China has not used full force in South China Sea for 600 hundred years.
Admiral Zhen He spared all of those who are now laying claims the China’s islands.
I hope the wishes of peace will not be returned in kind.
yang zi
This is a gimmick that changes nothing. How could you reach any settlement without China in it? After all,China is a major party of the disputes.
Roland
It does change! Instead of falling into China trap “divide and conquer”, now, if succeed, it has to face a block.
yang zi
hide behind a block will not save you. just go hook up with US and build a base for US Navy, that will help more. actually not. but try it anyway. US might throw you a bone
Cyrus
You might just get your wish. There is a growing call for the return of the United States in the Philippines.
If China continues to be a bully then a US return of the Philippines would truly be a reality. No matter how strongly your Communist Ally in Congress might rant about it.
Frank
I thought you said you are independent.
Cyrus
We are Independent. Is Japan not? Is Germany not?
Cyrus
It is just one of the Political desiderata, it would address our National Security against any Nation that would try to take over our Sovereign Territory.
John W.
China has illegally claimed Spratly Islands which are thousands of miles from it mainland, especially almost the entire of South and East China sea.
It’s also planning to use its aggressive behavior to make threats to its neighbors, like a bully in the playing ground. This threatening behavior will only futher isolated China from the International community.
Being the best friend and a great supporter of regimes such as, North Korean, Iranian, Pakistanis, etc. this will only make the World would never trust China again; defintely, not now and not any time in the near future.
Yang zi
You are hard to reason with.
China’s SCS claim is legal, it happened 80 years ago. Nobody objected. Using distance as an argument is foolish. Because if it is a good reason, then british, French and US should all give up their remote islands. To come closer, India should give up nicobar, Japan should give up diaoyu islands and even Okinawa, if you are for all these, China will give up spratelies
vufan
The old kingdoms of VN had explored these archipelagos more than hundred years ago, and under the domination of French colonist, French also claimed for these 2 archipelagos. It’s clear that China was late so much than VN.
Yang zi
Vufan, I an happy to see you recognize the importance of historical records. You hit it on the head, Vietnam’s claim is based on French claims. But Vietnam doesn’t understand, french took Vietnam, it also took China’s sprately. When French was defeated with the help of China, These islands goes back to China again. When Japanese was defeated, these islands were recognized as Chinese by US and current Vietnam government. You guys have no integrity.
John Chan
@vufan:
From 1884 – 1954 there was no such nation called Vietnam, there was only a place called French Indochina. Before that the current Vietnam was part of China, any exploration of South China Sea would be done under China’s name.
Regardless how one counts it, Vietnam has never claimed anything in SCS, only French tried to claim China’s land in SCS as its colony in the last hundred years, and some ancient Chinese lived in current VN had explored those lands in SCS.
ozivan
John W. The British should give up the Falkland Islands to Argentina. The US should ask the Hawaiians whether they want their islands back in their hands.
Minh Tan
@ozivan,
The days of land/sea up for grasp were long over. Both Argentina and Falkland Island were claimed/grasped by the Europeans and still being run by the Europeans origin. Fighting between 2 different groups of Europeans after land grapping seems normal. Why should the UK have to return the Island to the other Spanish speaking group?
Hawaii was “claimed” by the British, US and later on became part of the US (21/08/1959) and currently, nobody from Hawaii wanted be separated from the USA. What do you mean by returning? Returning to whom? To what?
The bottom line is that land/sea grapping was history and we should move on to the modern days.
@John Chan,
My ancestors came from China, but after many generations living in Vietnam, and we have become Vietnamese. We don’t speak Mandarin any more. We’re speaking Vietnamese and English only. Vietnam is our homeland now, just as well as the US. We’ll die for Vietnam and the USA if the countries need us.
Please do not speak for the Chinese who came to live in Vietnam and the US like us or using as an excuse for taking land/seas from Vietnam. We’ve become the Vietnamese and/or the Vietnamese Americans now. We’ll fight and die for the countries have been taken care of us. (Do^` Ba Ta`u Co^.ng Sa?n!)
John Chan
@Minh Tran:
Sure you should do what you said for your adopted homeland. But the debate here is whether Vietnamese bloggers can deny history and fabricate lies to smear China. Vietnamese bloggers are not defending Vietnam, they are smearing China viciously, it is pure aggression, so please do not muddle the duties of a converted Vietnamese with the action of clearing smear painted on China.
Nobody should smear a nation with lies, be it a foreigner or its own citizen. A Chinese gone native in another country is just another foreign who has nothing to do with China anymore.
Indeed you should die for your adopted homeland, that’s what a Chinese American marine believed, but he died in the hands of his white colleagues in Afghanistan because he could not take their abuses and tortures anymore.
It’s a shame that you no longer can write your ancestor’s writing, such ugly Latin script is a sad reminder of European brutal colonisation, otherwise I could communicate with you better with your ancestor’s writing.
Huy Duong
China’s claim is illegal and that’s why it does not dare accept the Philippines’ challenge to go to court.
In 1947, when a Chinese map maker first drew the U shaped line, international law only allowed countries to have territorial waters of 3 nautical miles. So if the U shaped line were a claim to the sea, it would have been illegal, null and void.
It is only until 2009 that China submitted that map to the UN as part of a claim to the sea. At that time it is also illegal with respect to the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.
Yangzi is deliberately confused between claims to islands and claims to the sea. Claims to islands, such as Shenkaku/Diaoyu, Nicobar, do not depend on distance, but claim to the sea depends on distance.
What that means for the South China Sea is the different claims to the Paracels and Spratlys do not depend on distance, but China’s U shaped line is illegal because it goes much closer to the coasts of other countries than to the disputed islands. Specifically, China’s claims to the Reed Bank and Vanguard Bank are illegal.
The logic for China’s claim to most of the South China Sea is simply economic wealth leading to military strength leading to expansionism. If Chinese do not like the West and Japan’s expansionism against it in the 19th and 20th century, it should not be expansionist against other countries.
John Chan
@Huy Duong:
Your argument is totally wrong, null and void. Your comment is a fallacy argument based on hearsay fact.
Philippines’s court challenge China’s claim in SCS is an hearsay event on the internet, using an hearsay event to denounce China’s right to defend its sovereignty in SCS, and China’s refusal to subject its sovereignty to third party scrutiny as a proof that China’s SCS claim illegal is a classic application of ad hominem fallacy to smear China.
Following your logic, can I say Vietnam’s control of South Vietnam is illegal because VN does not dare accept Cambodia’s challenge to go to court for the ownership dispute of Khamr Land? If Philippines and VN are happy to subject their territories to third party scrutiny, China will be happy to act as an arbitrator.
UN is an international discussion forum, it does not have jurisdiction over any nation’s sovereignty. It is laughable and ignorant to say UN is a legal authority while it is not. Vietnamese must be desperate to make up anything to justify their illegal occupied islands within the nine-dotted line in SCS. Particular pity when Huy Duong tried to claim an existing fact illegal using new rules after the fact, it seems he has no knowledge of legal principle that laws are NOT retroactive. Maybe there is no law in Vietnam therefore Vietnamese bloggers’ arguments are so weird and funny.
Huy Duong
@John Chan
Perhaps in your world Cambodia challenges Vietnam to go to international court, but not in this world. If you think otherwise, please provides evidence (from this world) that Cambodia challenges Vietnam to go to international court.
Tom Tran
Who cares? the Viet can claim the same things like China, so does any other claimant. Who have the right to judge my claim is valid and yours is invalid? If you or anyone think that because China is big, China is powerful, so its claim is more trustful than others then you better not to be arguing here. Fortunately, we live in a civilized world where armed conflict is pretty much a loss cause, even for a superpower. There comes the UNCLOS to be instrumental in solving territorial dispute without resorting to the rule of jungle. In fact, the whole area is a zero-sum game. One could always make a big claim at the expense of all others. It’s foolish to think that one could manage to take over the whole area including the surface and the undersea resources. The starting point of this dispute doesn’t lead to a harmonic solution since it hinges on vague historical evidence intertwined with hyper-nationalism regarding the sea from many countries, especially China and Vietnam. Furthermore, one could claim the islands and the sea de jure without control de facto. So be patient, nothing will change in the next few decades. Big talk but in the absence of credible actions proves nothing.
Tony Yip
I agreed with Minh Tan’s view. Given a chance to ask Gary Locke (current US Embassador to China), see if he’d say he’s a Chinese or an American; one will find out.
Like Minh, my ancestors came to the US a long time ago. I’m an American and I’ll be ready to die for the US, since it is my home country and the only one. China is just another country.
The truth is, now, I know how the Taiwanese feel when they are being forced/pressurised by the China Mailand to be called Chinese. My Taiwanese friends always say, they don’t want anything to do with China Mainland. With the support fro the US and the World, they’d fight the Chinese invaders to their last drop of bloods.
Do NOT call us Chinese any more, even if we have the same last Surename. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Sinodefender
As an overseas Chinese of mainland and Taiwanese descent,Taiwan may have to name some things ie China airlines but does it really matter,Taiwanese know they are Taiwanese and a label won’t change the facts,depends on who your friends are if they are DPP or KMT,what I find amusing is that some Taiwanese forgot that their ancestors came from Guangdong and Fujian which is in China,I doubt the U.S. would risk angering China or even fight for Taiwanese they are losing clout,only countries that seem to acknowledge Taiwan are Japan,U.S. and some African countries… Overseas Taiwanese or Taiwanese in Taiwan still call themselves Hua or Han no different from mainlanders…
John Chan
@Tony Yip:
Everybody should loyal to his country be it adopted or native, but there are some facts one must be aware, so that one can love his country rationally and unwaveringly.
Here is a short history, so when the similar things happen to you and your family, you are prepared, and won’t feel betrayed.
In WWII, both USA and Canada sent their Japanese citizens to concentration camps regardless how long they have been in both countries, their wealth were confiscated; no accusation and no trail, it was all legal by new laws. Majority of the Japanese had been in both countries for generations, and most of them probably even couldn’t speak Japanese.
But USA and Canada did not send their German and Italian citizens to concentration camps. They were treated just like normal citizens.
If the unfortunate happens, USA starts war against China, and USA treats you like the Japanese were treated in North America in WWII, just don’t be resentful; it is a price worthwhile to pay to be a loyal American.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: Go to this link and educate yourself about German and Italian Canadians during the WW2 before spouting out your nonsense…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps
Tony Yip
@John Chan and alike,
The modern US has a black president and many Asian senators, Congressmen, etc. Unlike China, the CCP, PLAN and PLA are ready to slaughter its own citizens at any time. China’s love and support for the muderer regime in North Korea has always shown the World the truth nature of China CCP and its intention in SCS, ECS.
Andy Hsu
I am Taiwanese and like most other Taiwanese we’ve servered in the army. We will fight along with our allied to agaisnt the invaders from China. We are deeply regretted that the US did not sale all the weaponry we wanted to buy. We fight the invaders to our last drop of blood. Visit China mainland, then you will find out how poor the people are and how bad the regime is.
John Chan
@Tony Yip:
You sound more like a surrogated Chinese to bash China on the internet.
@Andy Hsu:
Japanese wannabe can yell and shout, but they will not be able to separate Taiwan from China. Bashing China while you have no clue about China is pitiful.
Taiwan is an integral part of China; it will be reunited with China within a decade. Taiwanese will not fight to the last drop of blood, because the first thing on the Taiwan youth’s mind is to go to the USA, and overly dependence to the Rubin Goldberg weapons from a sneak oil salesman.
ozivan
@Andy Hsu. You suggested : Visit China mainland, then you will find out how poor the people are and how bad the regime is.
Have you, Andy Hsu, yourself visited China ?
I have visited various parts of China at least 15 times in the last 18 years. The people there are rich, well fed, well dressed, live in good dwellings and the roads filled with automobiles. They are still doing their level best to uplift millions more in the rural areas from poverty to middle-class.
A bad regime will not be able to achieve such amazing development, become the world’s 2nd largest economy and have 3 trillions in foreign reserve.
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: You wrote:
”
John ChanSeptember 26, 2011 at 6:41 pm
@Minh Tran:
Sure you should do what you said for your adopted homeland. But the debate here is whether Vietnamese bloggers can deny history and fabricate lies to smear China. Vietnamese bloggers are not defending Vietnam, they are smearing China viciously, it is pure aggression, so please do not muddle the duties of a converted Vietnamese with the action of clearing smear painted on China.”
Just swap the names around and you will have the correct assessment :).
“Indeed you should die for your adopted homeland, that’s what a Chinese American marine believed, but he died in the hands of his white colleagues in Afghanistan because he could not take their abuses and tortures anymore.” The CCP propaganda has infected you deeply. Time to get some mental treatment :).
“It’s a shame that you no longer can write your ancestor’s writing, such ugly Latin script is a sad reminder of European brutal colonisation, otherwise I could communicate with you better with your ancestor’s writing.” Chinese stole the old writing from the Viet, as you’ve said (your ancestor’s writing). Why don’t you go back to sketching as a way to communicate? The Viet adopted the Latin alphabets because of many advantages that you would not understand. They’ve shown how practical they are. BTW, Why do people from china all dress in western clothes? They could not shake off the “European brutal colonisation”? :)
Son
” while Vietnam announced yesterday an oil exploration agreement with India in disputed waters, which will bring Asia’s other giant into the conflict on Vietnam’s side.”
Please clear this up:
These areas lie within the 200-mile economic zone limit of Vietnam
yang zi
that doesn’t make it legal though, do you have any reasoning ability?
John Chan
India always wants somebody to fight its war, how can this time India was fooled into fighting Vietnam’s war? Are the India’s negotiators of this oil exploration agreement on the take? And they have all sneaked into USA as aliens?
India’s oil exploration company should insure their exploration equipment heavily, so that they won’t lose shirt due to excessive disappearance of exploration equipment.
nirvana
@Yang zi,
What Blogger Son meant is that VN conducts exploration for oil & gas within its 200nm EEZ as per UN regime. He should add indeed that this is legal, UNLESS these waters encroach into another country equally legal claims (=Disputed waters).
If this country contests the legality of the economic activities of VN (or PH) in its EEZ, it is up to this country to give the legal regime under which it opposes a UN-based claim. China unilaterally drew a line in 1947 without revealing its true meaning, not even giving the coordinates of the dots, nor even giving a name to designate such a line. So the “historic right” of China is to have a “dot dot dot… line”, ROUGHLY as shown on a map, in 1947.
John Chan
@nirvana:
UN is an international forum, it is not a regime.
nirvana
China is a big country and ASEAN is an association of small countries. This is a fact.
The South China Sea is a multilateral issue is also a fact. The claimants in ASEAN are solving, step-by-step, their differences in this issue. They are doing this through “respect for justice and the rule of law in the relationship among countries of the region and adherence to the principles of the United Nations Charter”, is a fact. Very soon, the responsibility for a peaceful, lawful and fair resolution of this long lasting dispute will rest only on China. This is going to be another fact.
Now, the big unknown is whether China considers these facts as an attack to its national honor (and especially its army’s honor).
ozivan
@Nirvana. I read somewhere that you’re Filipino. Are you ? There’s an item that just came to my mind, that I should ask for your views.
Sabah is currently a state within Malaysia, which was once a part of Sulu Kingdom of Philippines, leased to the British for 99 years which expired in 1935. If I am not mistaken, Philippines has not dropped her claims for its return, and in the past up to until President Fidel Ramos era, Philippines was in fact still actively demanding that the matter be adjudicated by the International Court of Justice.
Co-incidentally, I saw in a few Filipino’s newspaper that when Filipinos were recently noisily protesting against China over Reed Bank, they were also many placards demanding the return of Sabah.
Bloggers might want to know that Sabah has 73,631 km2 landmass , rich in timber resources and untapped oil and gas deposits.
Could you enlighten us on history and your stand ?
John Chan
@nirvana:
For the united front of ASENA, sacrifice must be made; Sabah is small price to pay for the unity of ASENA, even if Vietnam occupies all Spratly Islands, be it Reed Bank or not, Philippines will not protest for the sake of ASENA unity. Philippines will do anything for the unity of ASENA, is that right, nirvana?
nirvana
@Ozivan, John Chan
Aha! So it is such a big threat to China that people realize that the crux of the SCS dispute with China is not about the fuzzy sovereignty assertions, nor the speculative natural resources. It is such a threat to China that ASEAN realize that they can peacefully solve their differences. This is why you try to divert away from the military and security issue in the SCS, am I right?
ozivan
@Nirvana (If you’re only Filipino). Nope. You’re wrong. I brought up the issue of Sabah for you to comment, with the intention of hoping you’ll see the difference between your claims to Reed Bank and Sabah.
There is the ” Gold ” (Sabah) before you, yet you fight for the ” Bronze ” (Reed Bank).
Nirvana. Squabbles aside, and with no sarcasm or mischief from me, I actually like to hear from you, if you’re a Filipino, why Philippines dormant her claim to Sabah ? Do you think it’s worthwhile to revive the claim ? If not, Why not ?
Like I said, I meant no mischief. Just want to know the facts.
Cyrus
That is because there is no provocation from Malaysia that is why we are trying to retrieve it via diplomacy and the UN. Spratly is a different issue with the platform that China is building well within our EEZ and near the islands that we occupy. If that is not considered as provocation I do not know what is.
Thus the reason why we are being aggressive in pushing for our claim in the Spratly’s and building our humble defenses. Malaysia is a good neighbor it is even an arbiter for the MILF (Moro Islamic Liberation Front) and the GRP (Government of the Philippines).
ozivan
@Nirvana & Cyrus. The truth is Philippines is not active at all in retrieving back Sabah, since President Fidel Ramos. When President Macapagal was very active in claiming for the return of Sabah, Malaysia countered by training, arming and funding the Islamic rebels, which is today your Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) & Abu Sayaf rebels. Their families were given safe havens in Sabah, while during that time their menfolks shuffled back and forth in high speed boats between Sabah & Mindanao causing much attrition and guerrilla war in Mindanao. When the pressure from large scale Filipino army operation were on, they just scoot off to Sabah for rest and recreation, then return to attrite after your anti-rebels operation ends.
After President Ramos dormant Philippines’s claim by re-establishing diplomatic relations with Malaysia for the sake of ASEAN unity, Malaysia scaled back but have not entirely extinguish her counter-insurgency in Mindanao. These older Islamic rebels and families were given citizenship in Sabah much to the chagrin of native Sabahans. These “foreigners” given citizenship now outnumber local natives. If ever, Philippines revives her claim, these ex-rebels will be called back to serve in Mindanao. Besides, Malaysia has just built a naval base in Sabah.
In short, Philippines is actually helpless and can’t cry out foul, for whatever reason only the Filipino leadership knows.
Malaysia is the only interlocutor you can have with the Mindanao muslim rebels, since these rebels are under their control, by way of their family connections and residence in Sabah. When it comes to counter-insurgency and covert operations, few in the world know that the Malaysian Security Forces are one of the best in the world. They are quiet achievers, unlike the US army who will boast and trumpet loudly to the whole world, on whatever successes they had with covert operations.
Even when handling public protests and riots control, very few in the world notice that the Malaysian Police is one of the best in prior preparation, intelligence gathering, command and control of such incidents and on organisers of protests.
Best wishes
ozivan
@Nirvana & Cyrus. In addition, in case you’re not aware, Malaysia is not in any least giving in to China over the SCS disputes. The Malaysian leadership are quiet achievers using quiet diplomacy, unlike President Benigno Aquino. The Malaysians have a penchant to act intelligently, calmly and coolly even in the most difficult situations.
I believe Malaysia has no objection with Philippines yelling their heads off at China, because they see as you doing the dirty job for them. So is Vietnam now giggling inside their hearts that they manage to agitate Spoilt brat Nonnoy Aquino to carry the banner and make the trumpet call at the frontline.
The Chinese have a saying : The clever boys use words to prod, while the stupid ones get agitated and rush into the fight.
nirvana
@Ozivan,
The fact is that you are trying to exploit any disputes you can find between ASEAN countries. It doesn’t matter really to you whether I am Filipino, Vietnamese, Cambodian or Malay…
Ozivan, because the “dot dot dot…” line is related to Chinese ballistic missile submarines, it is a de-facto an international security and stability issue. If the SCS dispute with China was purely a territorial dispute, your desperate trick would make Filipinos re-think. If it was, ASEAN countries who are not party to the territory disputes would not concur with the four ASEAN claimants that there is a grave danger looming.
ozivan
@Nirvana. You wrote : It doesn’t matter really to you whether I am Filipino, Vietnamese, Cambodian or Malay… Unquote… and you also said :….your desperate trick would make Filipinos re-think.
All along I suspected that you’re not Filipino, but most likely a Vietnamese, because of the English and style that you employ. In addition, you do not appear to be well-versed in Filipino politics and history, unlike Cyrus. You often stumbled or avoided answering questions on Filipino’s issues that are closest to their hearts.
I deliberately posed the Sabah question to you, which you shied, to draw you out on your origins. At times, you masquerade as a Filipino but in actual fact, you excel best speaking from the Vietnamese point of view.
There is nothing wrong though on who you are, but you shouldn’t speak like you represent the Filipinos if you’re not one of them.
Whatever…I will continue to respect you, because…
Nirvana,… whether you stood as a friend or opponent,…. you have been a worthy, mostly tactful, diligent, sensible and good at details blogger, in our debates in the Diplomat.
You deserve my salute.
Cyrus
That is also one of the reasons Ozivan, we are tired of the war in Mindanao. My Grandfather was a soldier assigned in Mindanao and for years my mother and their family keeps on getting evacuated every time there’s an escalation.
The War in Mindanao has been going on since the Spaniards, to the Japanese, then Americans, and now Filipino’s fighting fellow Filipino’s. It is a very tiring war and we are trying to just achieve peace in Mindanao. Yes if indeed Malaysia has been influencing the MILF then they have been very effective in disallowing the Philippines to push for Sabah since we are busy in Mindanao.
With the ongoing peace process those MILF are even asking to be given an option to separate from the RP. Which no self respecting President would allow no matter how much bloodshed it would result to. So if no peace in Mindanao is on the horizon they Sabah would remain to be in dormancy status.
nirvana
@Ozivan,
As you have also given your respect to John Chan, I am hesitant to accept your compliments with satisfaction. Thanks anyway.
May be you have forgotten, but you have already brought up this Sabah/Sulu issue, sometime ago on The Diplomat. I am puzzled that you found that I pretended to be a Filipino. When is that?
You have chosen to defend a country (may I say a regime?). I have chosen to defend my ideal. Against me, I have the military establishments and the state propaganda machines, of which the most dangerous one is China’s (but not the only one).
If my nationality, my origins and the color of my skin are important to the debates, then I will give these details. As I think they are not, I prefer not to reveal them because I do not want to hear arguments for who I am. For my part, I don’t care who you are, but about what you say and whether you believe in it. I think it is futile to spend my time analyzing others’ English style. What I care is their true intention. And I have observed that you have a full database of historical conflicts between nations and their ethnic minorities, in Asia. You may have been trained to use it, together with “Agent Smith”, each time you “feel the heat”, to create diversions. What I can tell you is that readers of The-Diplomat have now learnt to bypass these.
Chris
China is source of the problem in the South China sea region. Perhaps, due to their leaser’s lack of command in English, which lead them to believe that the naming conventioned of South China sea meaning the South sea is belonging to China. Should Mexico claim all the sea in the Mexican Gulf? Could India demand for the ownership right to the vast Indian Ocean?
China’s continuing supports for the ruthless Korean regime has shown the truth nature of China’s CCP. Despite its strength in naval power, China will not be able fight multiple countries at the same time. As China’s aggressive behaviors increasing, other countries like Japan, Korea, US and the West will gradually pulling out their investments in China. People around the World will stop buying China’s goods.
John Chan
@Chris:
Following your logic, do you mean that because you are poor, so that nobody can become rich no matter how hard and smart they work? I am sorry I cannot agree with your logic, because your incompetent, and lack of diligence and foresight you want to block everybody else moving ahead.
India, Philippines and Vietnam failed to claim Indian Ocean and South China Sea is because they are incompetent and lack of diligence and foresight. China’s claim on South China Sea is based on generations of Chinese competence, hard work and foresight. Your loud rhetoric making up for fallacious argument is not acceptable, because other nations’ fault and failure you want to deny China’s hard earned fruit is pure application of ad hominem fallacy.
Chris
@John,
When getting ahead by stealing others’ properties, it is called thief, bullying and robbery. China’s thugs behavior in the South China sea and East China sea is just that.
Like most us in Canada, we’ve begun to stop buying anything made in China. Via news, we heard that Chinese navy thugs force (PLAN) are ruthlessly shooting poor fishmen in the International Sea water; just like when they were shooting/massacre their own people in 1989, at tiananmen square.
Sinodefender
How is it thievery if one protects ones property? Diaoyutai was stolen because Japan won the first Sino-Japanese war,I do not understand why they return stolen property… Most people in Canada don’t buy Chinese products care to prove this claim? Vietnamese fishermen could be spies,China is simply getting rid of trespassers… What does Tienanmen massacre have to do with SCS dispute?
John Chan
@Chris:
Well, stealing other’s properties is an expertise of Canadian, such as stealing native’s land in the north of Canada for oil sand; on top of that poisoning the native’s ground water with toxic tar sand tailing ponds water is just unconscientious.
Ignorance is not a virtue; that is why Chinese bloggers are doing their best to give you correct views and facts to overcome your mind polluted by the western bigotry media.
ozivan
@Chris. How appropriate when you used the phrase against @John Chan,
Quote :
When getting ahead by stealing others’ properties, it is called thief, bullying and robbery.
Unquote.
Didn’t you as a Canadian know your history of the early European settlers to Canada who did the very same thing you quoted above (add in massacred, which you omitted) to the Canadian natives called the ” First Nation ” ??
Or has Canada deleted mention of all those thieving, bullying, robbing and massacre of the “First Nation natives ” from your history books ?
Moral : Those who point their fingers at others must come with clean hands.
Canadian common law : Those who comes into equity must come with clean hands.
John Chan
@Chris:
China did not claim the whole South China Sea, China only claimed the islands inside the nine-dotted line in the SCS. Poor knowledge of the issue at the stake and fabricate wrongful accusation to smear China is a quick way to degrade a blogger himself. A blogger teases other people’s English with his lousy English is shameless and laughable.
Chris
@John,
During the tiananmen square massacre, were you on the shooting side?
John Chan
@Chris:
Tiananmen Square Massacre was a creation of western media in cooperation of western governments’ black information network. If you do some real search on the internet, you will find that you are misled.
Cyrus
If you are claiming the islands in your nine doted and yet you do not claim the entire West Philippine sea is laughable, it is non sequitor.
Then why are you claiming Reed Bank when it has no islands? Your rationale is flawed.
nirvana
@John Chan,
If China claims only the islands within the 9-dotted line, nothing else inside the 9-dotted line, then just remove the 9-dotted line and replace it by circles around the groups of islands China claims. Alternatively, list the islands and their coordinates. This would facilitate greatly the resolution of the dispute.
John Chan
@nirvana:
Your suggestion is too detailed for general discussion here. Perhaps some sea charts would show such details. Regardless, all land, islands or islets beyond the nine-dotted line are Chinese land; it is China’s internal business and only China can decide on how to handle it.
Cyrus
“Regardless, all land, islands or islets beyond the nine-dotted line are Chinese land; it is China’s internal business and only China can decide on how to handle it.”
The Chinese are showing there true colors. You mean that China is also thinking that the Sovereign State of the Philippines is Chinese territory?
Well good thing then we have the United States, what you are saying is tantamount to a threat to the very existence of our Republic. If you are even planning to conquer us then go ahead and try we are gonna give you hell before we capitulate.
ozivan
@Cyrus. Typo error. I think John Chan meant…WITHIN (not beyond) the 9 dotted line are Chinese.
Cyrus
Hope this works, if China will not respond then the calls in the Philippines to have the US Bases reinstated would come true. Imagine the 7th Fleet in the Philippine Naval Base.
That would make the dispute interesting.
ozivan
Good luck to Philippines if the Filipino wants back US military bases. It will show only that Filipinos think with the heart, not with the head. A small skirmish in Reed Bank could cause Philippine to sell her sovereignty easily, speaks much for Filipino foreign policy. GI culture of prostitution joints, night clubs, rapes and drunken brawls, etc as is happening in Okinawa will make a come back.
Can’t fault Philippines though, if that’s their choice.
BTW, most of about 1000 US military bases were not there by free choice, they were imposed on the host countries who lost wars to the US, eg Germany is hosting
200 military bases, Japan 115 plus bases, in South Korea because the US exact it for helping in their war with their Northern brothers. The US is not going to leave Iraq or Afghanistan peacefully without forcing them to grant some bases’ rights.
All the other ASEAN nations will be full of glee and jump for joy, as they’ll get US security at the expense of Philippines’ sovereignty. To others, it like having a shithouse in your backyard, not in ours. That’s fine with us.
BTW again, please search in Taiwan’s China Post for a news item on Sept 6, 2011 under ” China, World Bank Discuss Shifting Jobs To Africa “. World Bank Chief Robert Zoellick are in deep discussion with China to shift some 8-10 million lower-end jobs from China to Africa, as China moves her labor up the value-added chain within the next 20 years.
Philippines is right next door and have millions without jobs, yet she cannot see the opportunities by having friendly relations with China. Why send off your women folks overseas to work as maids, instead of keeping them at home with their families by working with China to relocate their manufacturing to Philippines.
But then, that’s life. No wonder one often say : None is so blind than those who refuse to see.
Bachelor Benigno Aquino is crying for Mama America, now her mum is no longer around to baby him.
John Chan
Maybe Bachelor Benigno Aquino is surrounded by 30,000 pair of shoes, he cannot see further than his shoe tips.
Cyrus
The US bases in the Philippines was approved without a fuss. What abuse was the Parity Rights that they shoved up our throats that we had to agree with.
If we are to let the US return then it is fine as long as Philippines have oversight. This would bolster our defenses which sadly now we cannot defend whatever territory we have be it Reed Bank or the Spratly’s.
America is an ally Ozivan which has been friendly with us for decades. China is a friend but because of what recently happened it has somewhat built doubts into the Filipino’s. If we sleep with China then they will have the Reed Bank and the Spratly Islands, if we sleep with the United States they will have a base which they need in ASEAN and we will have the Reed Bank and the islands we have in Spralty’s.
So yeah since we are relatively peaceful and friendly with the West then the US Base would somewhat serve our interest. notwithstanding the immediate economic benefit which the town will benefit in the immediate vicinity of the base. As with every decision there will always be Cons but I think that the Cons would far outweight the Pros that we are gonna be getting. Increased in Military Aid and stuff.
Cyrus
correction: the Pro’s would far outweigh the Cons.
nirvana
@Cyrus,
I disagree. We don’t need more military presence in the region. On the contrary! Stay firm with righteousness, stay with the spirit of ‘peace, freedom, friendship and cooperation’. If we have to face China intransigence, here is how we increase the stakes. ASEAN should ask the World to support and enforce the principle that the South China Sea becomes a nuclear-free zone.
ozivan
@Nirvana. Or a pragmatic way is to conduct joint oil exploration with China, at terms comparable to international oil companies, as sovereignty issues can be easier factored in under such a China/Philippines joint venture.
Unless, some top officials in the Philippine Petroleum Ministry has cut a deal for some significant millions in their foreign Swiss or Singapore Bank accounts. It’s not uncommon with some ASEAN nations that some sensible deals are often tossed aside because of vested interest.
Cyrus
Ozivan it is already in the works, come Chinese companies have submitted bids in some oil explorations projects. Read it in the papers a few days ago.
ozivan
@Cyrus. That’s very good news. I hope the Chinese companies win some of the bids, which in a way shows the sincerity and good intentions of China, apart from commercial gain.
If only you or Nirvana could convey the message to Benigno Aquino. Rant less, Do more. Don’t run in circles or swing at imagined enemies.
Work with China. Bring China factories to Philippines as they move out of some areas of manufacturing.
The Chinese Foreign Ministry are followers of a popular Chinese idiom :
Turn big problems into small problems. Then turn small problems into no problems.
In short, don’t turn a Molehill into a Mountain. China will be there for Philippines when you need China to fix your economic matters, just as the US will be there for you too for your defence.
nirvana
There should not be any discrimination against Chinese companies. As long as the Chinese government accepts and declares that the exploitation activities are in non-disputed waters, everybody is happy.
Cyrus
There wont be any Ozivan that is for sure. Filipino’s are not anti-Chinese per se we are only against China on Defense Issues.
We are one of the most forgiving cultures in the world even Singapore’s father said so.
Huy Duong
Comparing China with India: India does not try claim most of the Bay of Bengal. Not just India but also other countries: no country tries to claim most of the Mediterranean, or the North Sea, or any sea bordered by many other countries.
Britain, which dominated the sea far more than China ever did, never tried to claim so much of the sea as China started to do after its economic growth in the 80s.
The US, which has been the dominant force over the sea for about a century does not try to claim so much of the sea as China is doing now. It does not even try to claim most of the Gulf of Mexico.
What China is trying to do is somewhat unique.
Imagine China having the kind of military supremacy that the US has. The world would be a much worse place.
nirvana
@Huy Duong,
I feel I must correct you. In fact the US possesses the largest EEZ of all nations due to its coastlines and the number of islands it owns.
What is really unique about China’s behaviour is that is has always claimed SOMETHING UNDISCLOSED in the SCS. Even today, there is no official statement of what the “9-dotted line” means.
That Something can not be the oil and gas reserves as they were discovered only in the 70s (systematically overestimated by China). That Something can not be the fish stock that would be so peculiar as to reproduce only 12° North and West of 113° Long, the area of the annual summer fishing ban unilaterally decided by China. These are just concealments for that Something.
This is SOMETHING that moves underwater and can not stand the sonars of the fishermen trawlers nor the echos of the geophysical seismic surveys, especially when it is leaving or returning to base. Look at the a Google map showing the depths of the seas around China to see where this Something likes to hide.
Huy Duong
Thank you, Nirvana for your correction.
You are 100% correct that the US possesses probably the largest EEZ in the world. You are also nearly 100% correct in correcting me, let’s say 99.99%.
For the 0.01% left, I would say that UNCLOS gives most of that EEZ to the US, and the US is not trying to claim most of that EEZ. I would guess that the EEZ that the US is trying to claim (ie the EEZ that other countries are still disputing) is actually smaller than what China is trying to claim (most of the South China Sea).
Nevertheless, I thank you for the 99.99%.
nirvana
@Huy Duong,
I am satisfied with 50%.
The point I wanted to highlight is that the fact that China’s claim is out of proportion should not be the focal point of arguments against it. What makes this claim unique and unlawful is the deceptive character of it.
John Chan
China will keep on building and modernizing its military until it can recover all Chinese ancestor’s lands.
Jon
John Chan, your ancestors in Taiwan, Vietnam and Mongolia have disowned you. Just look at other Asian’s views. Don’t go around and claiming everyone was your ancestors, or relatives, please. Have a bit of self respect, my man. Ask the current US embassador in China, let’s see if he would accept you as a long lost relative? :-}
Will Atkinson
Reading John Chan’s views versus others’ and I wonder if John is a senior member of the CCP.
a_canadian_observer
There are certainly a good number of CCP moles in the west.
Sinodefender
I ask you once again,can you prove that pro-China bloggers are CPP moles?
John Chan
Are you sure I am not a low rank WuMao party member?
SCdad07
Laos and Cambodia did not attend the meeting.
“The Philippines pushed ASEAN to form a united front over the disputed SCS..” is over stated, imo.
nirvana
@SCdad07,
With such a complex geo-political issue, as 8 out of 10 countries participated, it is not overstated saying that a “united front” may be achievable. Remember, at the beginning, they were only 4. Although, I would prefer “position” instead of “front” to show that there is no agressiveness from the PH’s proposal and from ASEAN in general. All we want is rule of law first, and then cooperation.
SCdad07
ASEAN countries & China call for new idea.
Ph proposed. It ended as a workshop with no announcement.
Hope smarter proposal is forthcoming.
Regret, I have no idea/proposal.
nirvana
There are still many obstacles to overcome. The crux of these is to have China clarifying its claims (which I doubt it will). The proposal by the Philippines goes towards the good direction and the comments posted here confirmed this. They indicated that, to the generals in Beijing, a return of the US army bases is less worrying than an ASEAN united on a peaceful program. This shows that, eventually, righteousness will defeat brutality.
ozivan
@SCdad07. 8 out of 10 ASEAN nations attended the forum. What harm is there in attending ?
The point is just not how many participants came, but the seniority of the officials attending counts too, or whether they participated just to oblige Phillippines, or did it turned out to be a forum where everybody talks but nobody is listening since no joint statement was made ? Besides, it was not a heads of States type of forum.
It is not uncommon for participants to sent their “green horns” to the forum for training and international exposure.
I wouldn’t read too much into Philippines’ hosting of this convention.
melchor
philippine are not interested in u.s base to return, even without u.s base phl can still have u.s support in any comflict.. Also not all filipina who worked abroad are maids, there are also proffesionals etc.. it is so naive to think that all filipina work as maids only,
Cyrus
There is a growing call in the Philippines for a return of US bases. I would prefer though that the US Naval Base be located near the Reed Bank or the Spratly’s to bolster our forces in the immediate vicinity.
ozivan
@melchor. First of all, I wish to apologise if I have offended you in regard to Filipino working abroad as maids. Of course, they are thousands who work as professionals, skilled workers and sailors abroad. The fact is that there are hundreds of thousands of women folks working abroad as maids.
I have a 28 years old Filipino college graduate working in my family household for 3 years now. She is very pretty, well mannered and intelligent. It is sad that her father in Philippines has been unemployed for the last 15 years, being supported for 12 years by the wife working as a maid abroad, who died anyway 3 years ago, and now the daughter is working to support him and a younger brother. It is sad to see an educated girl having to carry on the tradition of working as a maid.
She is like a member of my family now, and am trying hard with my wife to find a good husband for her in Australia and bring her over. She needs to get off the poverty vicious cycle, so do many other good Filipino people.
That’s what I meant about the maids. The rich Filipinos with political power must have real concern and empathy for their poor. Junk all the mucho politics about SCS. Joint venture with China on oil exploration, get some billions in cheap China loans, and work with China to relocate her factories to Philippines during the phasing out.
If only those in power in Philippines would really care ?
Cyrus
Ozivan thank you then for helping a Filipina. You have done more than what other Filipino could have.
Yes most of the maids right now are College Graduates and very literate. Kindly send my regards to her then, and I wish her the best of luck! Sadly that is how it is in the Philippines and it would take a miracle for the Political Elite to turn an eye to the Poor Filipino.
That is just how it is now, as soon as she gets married to an Australian then she will have a good future. Her family in the Philippines can finally be free from the shackles of poverty and by good fortune migrate to Australia also.
nirvana
@Cyrus, Ozivan
It is a shame that The Philippines, one of the first countries to get free of colonialism, and relatively unaffected by the Cold War, remains a poor country. Cyrus, you are right in identifying rampant corruption and (past) dictatorship as the main source of this misfortune.
Ozivan, a Chinese wiseman said: “In a country well governed, POVERTY is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, WEALTH is something to be ashamed of.”
Look at these statistics about China:
http://www.china-mike.com/facts-about-china/facts-rich-poor-inequality/
Among all nations, China is 2nd in terms of number of billionaires but ranks at 120th in terms of GDP per capita. Moreover, the GINI index, that the World Bank uses to measure inequality of income, gives China above the US. And you know what? China has overtaken The Philippines too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
Forget about “Socialism” because it does not mean a thing since Deng Xiaoping attached “with Chinese characteristics” to it. But the “PEOPLE Republic of China”… In fact, the “renegade region” of Taiwan has a GDP per capita index five times that of mainland China and a GINI index as low as that of the European Union (=0.33). Taiwan should be the example of successful Socialism with Chinese characteristics. Taiwan should be the PRC.
ozivan
@Nirvana. The indexes can both be a fact and a flaw.
It is a fact that China by GDP per capita is placed 120th (assuming your data is correct), and by income inequality it is high up the ladder.
It is a flaw and inherently distorted, if the size of the base (1.3 billion population for China) is not taken into account.
In my opinion, indexes should also distinguish the percentages of those eg. living below poverty level, lower & upper middle-income level and the rich against the total population, to give a more meaningful comparison.
It will still be bad generally for China, but the rankings might improve by 30-40 notches.
It is also important that a time frame be attached to it.
Assuming the end of WW2 is the cut-off date, it is indeed a fact that the West, Japan, Taiwan, Korea and Singapore would fare very well, as it had an earlier headstart, after 70 + years of development.
China has only started real development only 30 years ago. Give her another 30 years, then we will know whether China can be uplifted into a 1st world nation.
My explanation should by no means be an excuse for China’s dismal performance with indexes per se. The indexes should in fact be referenced to spur China to strive harder.
It is said that China is a rich poor nation.
Cyrus
Yes I do acquiesce to that fact. Well we are slowly recovering from that severe blow back in terms of our GDP growth.
The reason why there is a widening gap is not only because of Government mismanagement but also to the people who lives below the poverty line. I was in our farm in the countryside and even if they are living a dollar and a few cents a day they still have the audacity to have 6 children.
So they are partly to blame.
ozivan
Addition. US naval bases are not what you want. See and read long term.
Cyrus
The US military base would help in many ways. Help us in our external defense, increase Military Aid, and increase economic activity around the base.
Ozivan we badly need an upgrade of our AFP we are badly lagging behind with our Military. Most of our equipments are relics of the Korean or Vietnam Wars. Worst our Navy is a relic of WWII.
So a US Naval Base would help the upgrade and also allow us to somewhat concentrate again on the insurgency.
sarasa
spratlys are chinese hard earn fruit through diligence? that is ridiculous! sabah will be return to philippine someday just dont be excited about it malaysia, its just we respect our friendship that’s why we didn’t insist our claim for now.. with or without u.s bases phl and u.s will cooperate in any common interest including SCS,
nirvana
@sarasa,
Noting on maps that the South China Sea has two groups of features that are dangerous to navigation is the hard-earned experience of early navigators (some being Chinese, no doubt). Drawing a “dot dot dot…” line on a map is child play. But, you should concede that concealing the meaning of this line to the World was a very “hard work”, a display of “competence and foresight” (shall I add ingenuity and patience?). The fruit of the thinking of generations of Chinese military strategists, is about to be destroyed. The waters within the “9-dotted line” is the only place left where Chinese submarines with nuclear missile can hide.
John ChaN
@Sarasa:
Your logic is flawed; it is a wishful thinking that Malaysia will return Sabah to Philippines, Filipino needs to wait for the sky to fall down for that to happen.
Besides allowing Malaysia to occupy Sabah and without giving other nations the same right to occupy other Philippines’ land is violating WTO’s principle of equal access, USA can punish Philippines with bombing and killing in the name defending free market.
Cyrus
Sabah returning to the Philippines I am not enthusiastic about, that is why I’m not letting my guard down in Spratly’s lest it will be another Sabah.
The US will not and never bomb the Philippines, yes it will exert political and economic pressures on the Philippines but outright military offensive in the Philippines is impossible.
Frank
“Sabah returning to the Philippines I am not enthusiastic about” why
“I’m not letting my guard down in Spratly’s lest it will be another Sabah.”
So if Spratly becomes another Sabah, you will be ok, right?
Interesting logic.
Cyrus
Could you even read? I said I am not enthusiastic about it returning to Philippine Sovereignty.
I never said im giving up, but I am a realist and the reality is Sabah has a slim chance of reverting back to the Philippine Sovereignty.
ozivan
@Sarasa. What’s the difference between now and later ? In property laws, have you heard of the Law of Adverse Possession ? The longer I possess it, the more it becomes mine.
The longer I sit at the property, the harder for you to dislodge me
Huy Duong
@John Chan
One moment you said this,
“India, Philippines and Vietnam failed to claim Indian Ocean and South China Sea is because they are incompetent and lack of diligence and foresight. China’s claim on South China Sea is based on generations of Chinese competence, hard work and foresight.”
Then another you said this,
“China did not claim the whole South China Sea, China only claimed the islands inside the nine-dotted line in the SCS. Poor knowledge of the issue at the stake and fabricate wrongful accusation to smear China is a quick way to degrade a blogger himself.”
Which one is your view?
a) Did China claim all the waters inside the U-shaped line? Or
b) Only the islands inside that line (plus the waters that would fairly belong to those islands according to international law)?
a or b?
John Chan
@Huy Duong:
Waters in the South China Sea are international waters, except those territorial waters, EEZ waters, etc. Even in the territorial waters all foreign civilian ships are allowed innocent passage through them.
The nine-dotted line delineates China’s territorial line in the SCS, all islands and islets inside that line are China’s land.
Huy Duong
@John Chan
I already understood that you said that all the islands, islets, rocks inside the U-shape line belong to China.
My questions to you here are:
Do you think that all the waters inside the U-shape line belong to China? For example as territorial waters, EEZ, historical waters?
Do you think that China should claim all all the waters inside the U-shape line? For example as territorial waters, EEZ, historical waters?
John Chan
@Huy Duong:
Waters in the South China Sea are international waters, except those territorial waters, EEZ waters, etc. Even in the territorial waters all foreign civilian ships are allowed innocent passage through them.
The nine-dotted line delineates China’s territorial line in the SCS, all islands and islets inside that line are China’s land. Territorial waters, EEZ waters, etc. are applied accordingly.
Vietnamese and Filipino occupying Chinese islands inside the nine-dotted lines are squatters and trespassers, they either can leave peacefully or to be evicted by sheriff.
Huy Duong
@John Chan
Again, I have already understood that you said that the islands, islets and rocks inside the U shaped line.
Again, my question to you is about whether you think China claims all the waters inside the U shaped line? And whether you think China can legally and fairly do so?
For example, you said that Vietnamese, Filipinos and Malaysians should be evicted from the Spratlys. I understood what you said (which does not mean I agree with you).
But my question to you is do you think that Malaysians should be evicted from the James Shoal area, Filipinos be evicted from the Reed Bank, Vietnamese and their Indian partners from Block 127 and 128?
Please answer my questions with the honour that I think Chinese have when I read ancient Chinese books, instead of saying that I am not interested in the truth.
nirvana
@Huy Duong,
You must have noted that, when China sent its “Notes Verbales” to UNCLOS, it carefully avoided UN terminology. In the SCS, there is no acceptance of China on “territorial waters”, EEZ, “continental shelf” as per the accepted UN definitions. Everything in the SCS is subject to China’s (future) interpretations. China has excelled in legal statements with “TBD” (=to be defined). Therefore, the famous “dot dot dot…line” in 1947 with TBD “historic rights”. These are truly the most “indisputable” rights, I must concede.
John Chan
@nirvana:
People like Huy Duong, Prince Asaka Yasuhiko and Cam are not interested in truth; they are here to bash China.
Territory is outside the purview of UNCLOS; UNCLOS only deals with maritime rules based on well defined territorial lines. Applying UNCLOS outside its purview makes UNCLOS void and null. Using UNCLOS to determine territorial lines in reverse order is nothing but contempt for the spirit of international law, order, cooperation and goodwill, such attempt is an abuse of UNCLOS and disrespect of UNCLOS, that’s what Huy Duong, Asaka, Cam and Co. are doing.
Huy Duong
@Nirvana
I agree with you, what is undefined is “indisputable”.
BTW, have you read the article “Calculated ambiguity in the South China Sea” (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KL08Ae01.html)?
a_canadian_observer
@John Chan: You’ve shown again that you’ve lost your debate to Huy Duong, Prince Asaka Yasuhiko and Cam … with your typical “concession” speech. :)
Asian-American
@sinodefender,
All the bs talk and no walk… Look, Taiwan is going to spend over $5 Billions to buy US weaponry.
The US is helping Taiwan and doesn’t care about china main land for a bit. What can china do about it? As a routine, it will go and cry, then let’s get on with bullying other unarmed fishermen in the International sea water.
Sinodefender
Lol and U.S. doesn’t even sell them top grade weapons… The U.S. is selling weapons to make money,why did the U.S. tell KMT to stop building nukes? If the U.S. truly doesn’t care about China,then why do Americans go paranoid when China holds some American debt,why are there so many China bashing news in the West,U.S. fears China otherwise it wouldn’t conduct so many military drills with China’s neighbors or have bases in the Pacific. China’s military is superior to Taiwan’s unlike you I wish for a peaceful conclusion. What would China do you ask,China would merely point missiles at Taiwan… Trespassers are dealt with accordingly.
Prince Asaka Yasuhiko
“Your suggestion is too detailed for general discussion here. Perhaps some sea charts would show such details. Regardless, all land, islands or islets beyond the nine-dotted line are Chinese land; it is China’s internal business and only China can decide on how to handle it.” -John Chan
So the Chinese has finally shown their true motives, they want the entire South East Asia and is not even satisfied with their nine-doted line claims. This should awaken all ASEAN people to be vigilant in protecting our Sovereignty against the Chinese Snake. If we are united and with the US and Australia we can surely defeat the Chinese.
Cam
Totally agree. John Chan is not only the CCP’s mouthpiece, he is every CCP’s intention of swallowing entire SE Asia. So Vietnam is first prey of the snake on southward march, right Mr. Chan? The red China wouldn’t dare to challenge the North bear Russia, she can only bully the weaker nations in the South. How pathetic!
John Chan
@Cam:
Only westerners are bombing and killing helpless nations non-stop, they are truly pathetic.
China only wants to recover its land occupied by the aggressors like Philippines and Vietnam. Filipino and Vietnamese can solve the problems easily by leaving those islands within nine-dotted line peacefully or they will be evicted by sheriff.
Prince Asaka Yasuhiko
As if, John if you are really nationalistic about China and its history you should remember my Name perfectly.
Joe
It seems China is a bit lonely in its fight against the majority of its neighbours. Also, its seems that John Chan is an odd man out of many, in his view that China is not an aggressor in SCS. I hope John Chan does not represent the majority views of people from China.
nirvana
@Joe,
I am afraid that the majority of ordinary Chinese do have the same opinion as John Chan. Thirty years ago, approximately the same large majority believed that Deng Xiaoping rightist deviationism is the worst enemy from the inside. The sordid aspect of this is that their fathers were prepared to kill for the “noble cause” of the Cultural Revolution and today they are prepared to die for the “national honor” and for preserveing the “splendid civilization” that their fathers ruthlessly wrecked. The elite that reads The Diplomat and disagreeing with us here, I can’t figure out what they believe. Some, I am sure, believe in the power of “My father is Li Gang”.
nirvana
@Prince Asaka Yashuhiko
I think John Chan meant “within” the dotted line. He also said, as an answer to Blogger Huy Duong that the waters “within” are also China’s territorial waters, but (as China is nice) “innocent passage” is allowed. In short, “territorial waters with Chinese characteristics”.
But since everything within belong to China, this means that “innocent passage” is to be understood “with Chinese characteristics” too. For example, an oil tanker sailing near the Spratlys may be considered as “innocent” if its destination is Seoul, but not if it is Tokyo.
John Chan
If Japan continues its aggression, provocation and hostility against China, indeed one day seaway communication to Tokyo might not be OK.
Cam
Can anyone out here please explain to me what is really the term of “Chinese characteristics”. To me based on John Chan and the Co., it could be anything that fits the behaviors of the Chinese in SCS.
nirvana
@Cam
“Chinese characteristics” is a magic expression that can change black into white. Example: take “socialism”, add “with Chinese characteristics”, you get “state capitalism”. But as all magic formulas, it does not always work as it should. Example: take “market economy”, what do you get? I let you guess. Deng Xiaoping is credited to introduce it for the first time, but purists have said that he simply borrowed it from Mao’s Thought.
The best source is here:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/29/c_13851746.htm
Eric Chan
Taiwan, Vietnam Japan, the Philippines, India, Singapre, South Korea, etc. will join the fight for freedom of navigation against China, with the backing from Russia and US. First, let’s stop buying products from China, then pulling out all investment in China.
Cyrus
It will not be to the best interests of all parties to stop all economic activities with China. If you do not like the country no reason for doing economic suicide.
ozivan
@Eric Chan. China is now moving into a new phase, where it is acquiring ownership of foreign factories and businesses inside China,or replacing them with like businesses. At the same time, China is aggressively investing and buying up strategic businesses, land and resources abroad.
Your clarion call is becoming outdated.
AlfaB
Mercentalism versus open trade! Who will be doing business with you, china? You will see more trade protectionism after 2012 election! Without the US market then china will become the ’superpower’ very soon!!I don’t see any sign that china will be surviving in the coming economic perfect storm!
Eric Chan
Time will tell, gentlemen. Time will tell…
Nobody wants war. Chinese business men around the World are quite successful, like in Hongkong, Singrapore, Taiwan, US and UK, etc. And one of the main reasons for this is, they know how to negotiate. They know how to give and how to take, etc. Everyone is gaining something out of any deal.
They know how to live peacefully among their associates and their neighbors.
I don’t want to see China to go down, but, for sure, I don’t want it to bring war to Asia. If war breaks out, Chinese people will be surely suffered and China will be falling apart. Look at how many countries have gang-up and ready to fight with China. Just look, look… and think for a moment.
a_canadian_observer
@Eric Chan: I have many chinese friends and associates/co-workers like you, whom I have utmost respect for. I have no respect for the war-mongering, dishonest, lack of integrity, and china-apologist chinese bloggers I’ve seen here. They have only one vision: expansionism and assimilation, disguised by the “peacful rise” logo while their supported regime is acting like thugs and pirates..
Frank
How do know he is a Chinese?
Frank
Why don’t we start from you?
Open your computer, throw out all components made in China.
Asian-American
China and ancient thinking like Jonny Chan just simply cannot live with the facts that as human, we are evolving. Though we came from the same root, but we changed. People from Britain to Usa became Americans, from China to Taiwan have become Taiwanese, to Vietnam became Vienamese, etc. Go home China. Stop invading our lands and seas in the name of our common roots.
ozivan
@Asian-American. As you have loudly claimed that you’re an Asian American, an American, no more an Asian; as you have changed and evolved. Then why are you getting involved in this debate about China ? And still use the screen name Asian.
You said : Stop invading our lands and seas in the name of our common roots.
Since when did China invaded the USA and EEZ ? If I may ask.
If you are referring to the SCS, what concern has it with you, since you claim that you have changed and evolved ? As an American, am I right ?
It seems that you have assumed it’s your right to hit at China and Chinese, whereas you cannot accept John Chan’s right to defend his China from being smeared and portrayed unfairly.
You may have lost your roots, but aren’t you acquiring new values in USA on democracy the wrong way ?
I am Australian Chinese. One who is Proud to be Australian and Chinese. That’s the right and good way of democratic values we have in Australia.
nirvana
@Ozivan,
>> That’s the right and good way of *democratic values* we have in Australia.
Full stop? And you are proud to be Australian AND Chinese?
Cam
I think it is a matter of choice. Many Asian-Americans consider themselves – American first, Asian second (nothing wrong about this due to loyalty to the country they were born or reside). You have your right to be considering yourself Chinese first, then Australian second. This is your choice and I don’t see anything wrong. Please don’t see yourself as a model for others to follow.
ozivan
@Cam. You have read wrongly. It’s Australian first, Chinese second. There’s nothing wrong if I could be a model for other overseas Chinese to follow. It’s up to them to make their own choice.
Andrea Mitchell
Hey folks, Is going to be the U.S. considerably much better off keeping Syria’s Assad?
aldrin
to john chan chinese armed forces is still primitive compared against USA lol its wrong to think that because they are good in gymnastics and ping pong (indeed they losers in boxing) they are good in war they were murdered by the japanese during ww2 .They are bragging their newly acquired 40 year old second hand war ship from russia lol .take note ONLY 1 USA has hundreds if not thousands 1 tomahawk missile will sunk that lousy ship. China someday will be erased from the world map.Pity China they have incompetent leaders similar thingking like HITLER civilians was sacrificed and doomed because of their leader..Wake up chinese leaders your old you are not the one to fight but your youths who deserve to live longer unlike your leaders who are in their twilight stages and like to experience war,watch and enjoy the war if ever lol
aldrin
The true cause of china ’s aggresion is to reduce their population and war is the solution yehey!