Southeast Asian nations may be struggling to get their act together over how to present a united front in response to China’s territorial claims, but this isn’t stopping some of them preparing for potential military eventualities.
Jane’s Information Group has compiled data for Vietnam that suggests the country is significantly boosting defence spending this year, in large part because of concerns about China.
As Jane’s noted last week, deciphering what exactly Vietnam’s budget numbers mean is no easy task—the government views defence spending as a state secret, and it’s unclear what exactly is included in the numbers that are actually released. Still, Jane’s notes: ‘In January 2011 Defence Minister Phung Quang Thanh told the 11th National Party Congress that Vietnam's defence budget would increase to VND52 trillion ($2.6 billion) in 2011. The allocated expenditure represents an increase of 70 percent over 2010 spending.’
One of the key concerns for countries like Vietnam are what appear to be China’s expansive claims to most of the South China Sea (with a little intimidation of Vietnamese fishing vessels thrown in for good measure).
Last March, there was speculation that China had explicitly referred to the South China Sea as a ‘core interest’ in the same way it sees Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang. This view was given some additional weight after reporters were briefed following a closed-door meeting between US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and influential Chinese State Councillor Dai Bingguo that Dai had described the South China Sea as ‘a core national interest.’
But according to China military analyst Michael Swaine, of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, this information has been misreported. He says:
‘As Beijing sought to limit US interference in territorial disputes in the South China Sea and as tensions rose with its neighbours during 2010, news surfaced that China was for the first time labelling the South China Sea a core interest on par with Taiwan and Tibet. This, however, is a misreading of the facts. Despite news reports to the contrary, China did not explicitly identify the South China Sea as a core interest.’
Still, despite the story making a splash around the world last summer as tensions in the region mounted, China appears to have done little to correct this misunderstanding—if indeed that is what it was. The consequence is some smaller neighbours believing they need to do a little muscle-flexing of their own.
Reddit
Digg
StumbleUpon
Delicious
Technorati
Yahoo
Google
Plurk
ASEAN
It was NOT misreported. The Chinese diplomat stated it explicidly as a not so subtle warning to the U.S., but the effort backfired when ASEAN countries -led by Vietnam took noticed and put them on the spot.
It is a typical Chinese tactic. They first tried to steal some islands/shoals to see if anyone noticed. When succeeded, they planted “evidences” to say that the area belonged to them, even though even a little ASEAN kid knew otherwise. When planting evidences met with real legal challenge, they pretended to draw a map – a particular u-shape map. The map showed the true face and colors of Chinese aggression. After that, they bullied their way thru one little fishing boat at a time. Another generation later, most teenage Chinese boys growing up post blatant map trick would think the area really belonged to China and thus willing to die for the fatherland. What a way to encite nationalism for the sake of blatant aggression.
John Chan
Vietnam is the squatter of those islands in South China Sea. Squatter either can leave peacefully on its own, or to be evicted by law enforcer. China is only protecting its territory.
China should help Indonesia to evict Indians from Andaman and Nicobar Islands and send Indians across Bay of Bengal back to India peninsula.
Long
John Chan,
you either day dreaming or have no knowledge about Indonesian people. What in the world made you think that China should help Indonesia to evict Indians? Did you know that when Suharto was in power, the Chinese that live in Indonesia were banned from having dragon dance, celebrating Chinese culture (or whatever you want to call it) in public? Do you remember the riot that the Indonesians killed many Chinese in 1998? See this for more information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Chinese_legislation_in_Indonesia)
Bottom line is: most south east asian ppl do not like the Chinese. Yeah, the Japanese did commit crimes during WW2 and cause miseries to many asian countries, but I bet you, if you do a survey among ASEAN countries, they will choose Japanese over Chinese. I’m sure the Indonesian people will choose to evict the Chinese,not the Indian if they have a choice.
Observer
China is the big bully squatter/invader in Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia. China needs to let those people live their own lives and stop the annexation/colonization.
Free Tibet/Xinjiang/Inner Mongolia. Let those people go, big bully China.
Jim Jha
Hello!
I am afraid that you mistake Han for China. Xinjiang and Tibet were, are and will be indispensable parts of China. In the past centuries, China is the Chinese Empire. People there recognize the centralized control of China. Therefore, they are Chinese. How can you require them to leave from their own lands?
John Chan
@long, how can Chinese forget the atrocity the Indonesians did to Chinese while China was weak, such as rapes, looting, massive Chinese expulsion, forced assimilation, etc. Suharto used anti-China sentiment to ouster Sukarno. It was a modern version of the atrocity that Mongols had done in China, maybe even worse.
long, that is exactly why I am here to expose the hypocrisy of the western culture and their fake democracy and human rights claims. When those genocides were happening to the overseas Chinese, nobody in the West said a single word for the Chinese victims, because they put their cold war interests ahead of humanity.
Your reminder and the reminder from the Mongolian bloggers are powerful and clear. The only way that Chinese is not going to get abused and humiliated is to have a very strong military, the military needs to be so strong that those perpetrators not only dare not to harm Chinese, they also need to respect Chinese, so Chinese safety and integrity can be guaranteed. For the moment China military strength is long way from adequate to achieve that goal. The China’s military buildup is just the beginning. Thank you for the reminder.
All those nations crying wolf against China’s military buildup must ask themselves why are they worrying; is it because they have done wrong to China in the past? Otherwise why should they worry China’s self defense preparation?
long, Indonesia wants to rename Indian Ocean to Indonesian Ocean. Indians are so treacherous that they are stirring up hostility among peaceful South China Sea nations in the hope those nations would fight India’s war for Indian.
Long
Chan,
Forcefully and brutally invaded other countries’ terrotories is not self defense. If China wants respect, then she needs to behave and be responsible. Look at Japan, yes, it did commit horrible crimes during WW2, but since then, Japan has gained respect from most of the world (with exception of China, Korea).
Long
Chan,
by reminding you the riot against the Chinese in Indonesia in 1998 and the fact that most China’s neighbors do not like Chinese, I did not mean to stir up the hatred and the retarliation. All I wanted you to do is to take a moment and ask your self why Chinese people is disliked by their neighbors. If only one or two countries, then you may say, yeah, it’s just human nature, we don’t get along. But if the majority of the world dislikes you, should you need to ask yourself?
Just look at how the whole world treated the Olympic torch relay around the world. Almost everywhere, people protested it. And how did the Chinese students in Korea reacted? They beat up the Korean students on their own soil. That is not how the Chinese people is going to gain respect.
THE KING OF EARTH
China and certain other nations suffer from one MAJOR problem, that none will EVER adress. OVERPOPULATION !!! China and many Asian countries are heavily overpopulated and this puts extreme pressures on the world and among neighbors for claims to land, fishing zones, water, forestry resources etc. China is the worst perpetrator here with India who’s billion a piece is just ridiculous. Imagine if every country on earth grew to a billion each the world would strangle itself in human feaces, forget global warming. China and India alone curretnly flush 2 billion human faeces into the sea, rivers or their own land daily. Think about that for a moment because when the Earth was healthiest there were only 2 billion humans in total living on all of Earth. So instead of pissfighting over who owns the south china sea or taiwan or tibet, places that are sparcely populated and not a major issue… how about adressing the key issue of : “stop having children you can never logically feed healithily” .. i have neighbors of many nationalities where i live and the indian chinese and african neighbors all have done the same thing, they move here unable to speak english properly, with very poor jobs and immediately start having children. I’ve seen it happen before my eyes. The whole mentality is WRONG !!! leave the south china sea alone and let it remain a quiet peacful squatters paradise. at least it will remain natural and clean unlike china or india.
Da Truth
Long,
The United States just invaded Iraq on the basis of PREEMPTIVE Self-Defense. So the Global precedent has been set!
Also when China is weak everyone carves a piece of her out. When she is strong they run to her for trade even though they hate her. Power is what nations thirst for, NOT CIVILITY. Otherwise we would all be speaking Polish as that nation’s history BEST supports why Direct Democracy, not a republican system, is a BAD form of Government.
Mexico lost half its land and 10% of its people to the US. Its SLAVE labor force works in literally THIRD WORLD conditions in some places in the US. At the Mega Toxic waste site in central California it was just discovered the those local residents have water quality as toxic as the worst places in the world. Their children also have some of the highest rates of cleft lip babies in the US. Source-Los Angeles Times, NPR & KPRK.
Mexico does not trade with the US because they have a past history of mutually assured friendship. She trades with the US because SHE HAS TO! She has no other superior economic or political choice.
Canada also does not trade with the US out of British filial piety. She and the rest of the world trade with the US because of its economic and political power. NAFTA secures vital natural resources from Canada and Mexico because it is in their best interest to, Tariff free. Nations act for their own self interest. Just like the US failed to join the French against the British and formed the Jay Treaty. It was because it was not in our best interest to enter another war, even though morally the French helped us win our War of Independence.
Just like Vietnam and North Korea threw off the Chinese hold on them after they won their autonomy. After both victories, the Chinese consulates were deported. They did not think of how many resources and lives China gave them in order to achieve victory. That is because China acted in her own self interest in aiding them in the first place. It is only natural for a independent nations like North Korea and Vietnam to think in their self interest as well.
We would like to think that alliances can span eternity. However just like past lovers you can love and lust for someone one minute and be disgusted later.
John Chan
@Long, do you remember the slogan “Yankee go home!” it was very popular one all over the world too. Anyhow China has its mission to bring peace and prosperity to the world, doing the right thing may not please everybody, but for the humanity, it is a burden China has to carry. Only India is so insecure, it asks to be liked all the time as so often it appears in your comments.
THE KING OF EARTH
Hey John Chan, NO THANKS !!
I don’t think we need China to “save humanity”. Sure there have been some grievous errors commited by chirsitans, muslims, jews, protestants, anglicans and the western world in general BUT Asian is no different really. Asian remained far behind the Western world and shows where Europe would be had it not become civilised. Sure this came at a heavy war cost among other things BUT at least we didnt build up a population of 30 billion all fighting each other now. Imagine if the western world behaved as china has, with no tecnhology or modernity, people would all be riding cows and growing beans and hoardes of barbarians would still be terrorising villages, the same way as happened in china till recetnly and now is done by the govenrment itself who wanton destroys entire villages with no consultation to build a stadium. like i said buddy NO THANKS.. china needs ot focus on itself because it is wasting precious recourses to produce faulty goods like tennis balls on a string that breaks after one hit or a broom that breaks at the stem when pressure is applied, just total waste of money and precious recources.. and certainly not helping to save humanity.
THE KING OF EARTH
John Chan, a measure of a nations sucess is it’s productivity per capita. In this regard China is way behind the western world wit no real hope of ever catching up. For china to ever be as productive as the western world it would need to dominate every industry in every category and have every citizen properly educated and trained to be employed in those roles. This would include the establishment of enough facilities to support a society with over 1 billion people. Again, China has no hope ever of acheiving this objective unless it depopulates to 200 million people. India and even indonesia, phillipines and many other countries fall into the same category. Africa bangladesh sri lanka all have the same problem. Technology has brought the western world to the most remote places and conspiracy theories and religion have created classes of people from those countries who loathe the western world YET all want to be exactly like the western world. ie. hypocrisy. in other world DEFUNKT ! you have no arguement and no position… you need to look inwards not outwards because the world is not going to let china start snapping up islands and seas whenever it feels like it, nor is the western world going to loose out on resource developments to china over and over especially when china is trying to save humanity by quickly pillaging the earth for itself while it builds its own extreme capitalist class whos sole aim is to serve mother china from swish overpriced foreign penthouses adorned in fake LV home couture.
Vietnam
Asean,
you distort the facts so much that you sound really stupid. please read up on why the dispute exists between so many country and make educated comments in the future so that you can contribute to a real discussion. Also, please make fair and balance comment instead of just writing a whole bunch of craps.
BB
‘Mr. VIETNAM!’,
I wonder whether you are a real Vietnamese or just an impostor trying to spread misinformation to deceive and confuse other bloggers on this site!Don’t be a traitor to your country!Surely you still remember who were Tran Ich Tac and Le Chieu Thong in our history?! Those people having asked for hundred thousands of Chinese invaders coming to help them get back the thrones (in 13th and 18th centuries)had paid the dearest price for treason against their country?!
China has always been an aggressive country with expansionist and hegemonic ambitions in their whole history, you should remember that!
ASEAN
Now that a spade is called a spade, you have no other way to counter the discussion but calling the messenger stupid. Isn’t that so?
As for John Chan calling Vietnam the squatter and China the enforcer, what exactly is China enforcing? China has no jurisdiction except for what it falsely proclaimed. Nobody else in the region recognized China as the “enforcer”. That only means China is the neighborhood bully. Not?
John Chan
Here we have an interesting case, teapot (ASEAN) is calling kettle black, is he self-incriminating by calling the messenger stupid?
Actually it is an interesting topic worth exploring, that is what is the best way to evict squatters; starving, big stick or pay off their corrupted leader?
ASEAN
It is only interesting when John Chan ran out of plausible points and start calling names. Show us a link to defend your view that is not fabricated by China and we’ll have an intelligent discussion. Otherwise, much of your belicose attitude about China carrying a stick is actually about the reflection of your own inferiority complex. China may threaten any country but Vietnam and we all know it.
Leonard R.
Vietnam needs a strong national defense. And its build-up is not aimed at the US.
So I applaud them.
It is a lovely country with hard-working, resourceful people.
I wish them success.
THE KING OF EARTH
I agree, the wetnamese are a lovely warm people. I say “wetnamese” because i had a long term Vietnamese partner and it was one of our private jokes … here inability to pronounce “V” despite her country is called Vietnam.. lol .. adorable lovely people and very different to china and perfectly entitled to live in peace forever more after the history they’ve had. China should make peace not create new wars if it wants to save humanity. honestly it should be more determined to recapture north korea than the north china sea.
Observer
Vietnam and her people MUST do what they HAVE to do to survive.
For thousands of years, Vietnam has been fighting for its very own survival and sovereign against a much bigger bully neighbor China. China has a long and bloody history of invasions and colonization of Vietnam.
Before the Chinese bloggers come in here and spew out ridiculous statements, here is a link for the readers to learn more about Vietnam long history and how they fought for their very own freedom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vietnam
John Chan
So far all comments regarding Vietnam from Chinese bloggers are true and can be back up by historical records. Chinese bloggers were really taken aback by the hostility in the comments posted by Vietnamese bloggers.
1. Although Vietnam and China have many conflicts in the past, but recently China helped Vietnam fight invaders many times, such as defeated the French in the 19th century, fought against Japanese, French and the US in the 20th Century.
2. China was baffled by the Vietnamese aggressive actions in 1979 war, and illegal occupation of Chinese islands in South China Sea.
3. French had conducted culture genocide in Vietnam, they forced Vietnamese abandoning their own writing and adapted European Latin alphabet instead; the Romanized Vietnamese writing has lost its ability to express meaning symbolically, and all it can do is to represent sound. The change of writing made the Vietnamese lost connection to their thousands years of history and culture records which were written in Chinese.
4. Vietnam was part of China few times in the past.
If Observer considers the above four historical events ridiculous statements, is it because the Vietnamese lack of ability to read their ancient historical records anymore? Or Observer is an agitator whose aim is to undermine China’s peaceful rise by stirring up hostility between Vietnam and China?
Observer
1. China helped communist Vietnam because they don’t want a free country near by. See North Korea.
2. China NEVER EVER owned any islands in South of China Sea legally. China murdered Vietnamese sailors in 1979 and 1988.
3. Vietnam has its own language, culture, way of life. Vietnam has been fighting for its own survival and sovereign against a much bigger and bully China.
4. China was a part of Mongolia, Machuria, Japan, Britain, etc. Your point?
I did provide a well know link to back me up. Where is your source?
Ly Tran Le Nguyen
Throughout Vietnam’s turbulent history, China was the only country that committed tremendous atrocities including genocide, culture-erasing, cinicize or assimilate Vietnamese culture, burned books, destroyed architecture and temples, exploitation of natural and human resources. Every time China invaded, they attempted to wipe Vietnam and its culture off the map. The French may exploited resources, but never committed full-scale genocide. The U.S. fought the hot version of the Cold War in Vietnam, but never wanted to “invade” the country like China did.
It is obvious that every single Vietnamese, young or old, knows exactly who their motherland’s eternal enemy is and that enemy doesn’t speak French, Japanese or English.
Nguoi Nuoc Ngoai
Vietnam is the only country not afraid of China. They have fought China many times throughout their history and have beaten them on numerous occasions. The Vietnamese also pushed back Mongul advances 3 times – no other country was able to do that. They defeated both the French and the US – modern day super powers. Russia was more a benefactor to Vietnam than China during these wars against the West. The Vichy France regime was a puppet government of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. When they were both defeated after WW2, look what the Vietnamese did to the French at Dien Bien Phu. China invaded Vietnam in 1979, not the other way around, to “punish” Vietnam for overthrowing the Khmer Rouge (an ally of China) in Cambodia who were killing ethnic Vietnamese (as well as their own people). Not only did Vietnam hold their own but China didn’t succeed in forcing Vietnam to leave. Vietnam is a proud country with a rich history and not a country to bully – they have prevailed against larger foes throughout their history. Those are the facts.
John Chan
@Observer, you are mixing your emotional speculation and your one-side view on history with real history. Even in the links you provided proves the points I listed. My sources are Chinese because they were written by people with integrity; it is not like your source written by creative revisionist writing western and its lackey historians whose aim is to cover their ugly past and to mask themselves in the skin of democracy and human rights.
Most likely you are a Vietnamese impostor who wants to stir up hostility among the South China Sea nations. You even don’t understand what has been written in the links you provided.
Yes, when China was weak, China was conquered; during that time Chinese were abused, humiliated, and our culture and civilization were turned backwards. Your point 4 is true. I guarantee that when those nations have the means to repeat what they have done before, those historical facts will be their legitimate excuses to repeat their crimes on Chinese again; and the West will endorse and approve those crimes enthusiastically like in the past. So it is also true that Mongolia, Japan, and Britain are part of China, that historical fact can be used by China to reclaim them legitimately. In the eyes of international law, it is your territory only if you can maintain your sovereignty over them. Therefore more than a million square miles of China’s ancestor lands are still under foreign occupation and are not part of China’s territory.
Observer, you are born too late, you have missed the time when China was weak and helpless. Your bellicose nature and belligerent posture work against you and your nation. To survive, a small and weak nation must promote peace and harmony to avoid the sad and miserable fate that Chinese have gone through in the past.
For Chinese self-preservation, the current military buildup in China is only the beginning, until the US respects China as equal, China’s military buildup is deemed inadequate. Observer, please read my reply to long’s mindless anti-Chinese racist provocation, I hope you can refrain from inciting hostility that is detrimental to the peace and prosperity of the world.
Observer
@ John Chan
Here we go again, I will have to straighten out your ridiculous and inaccurate statements, again.
My links (Wikipedia) are well known worldwide. They are well known because they present indisputable historic facts and do not lean toward or biased to any nations. In the reference sections of my links, any readers would be able to learn more from the many references cited. We are still waiting for your neutral sources. People Daily and Xinhua don’t count because they are propaganda mouthpieces of the CCP.
You and Chinese bloggers kept complaining about how bad the Japanese treat Chinese in WW2 yet you kept silent about how Chinese invaded and enslaved Vietnam and her people for over 1000 years (10 centuries). Talk about hypocrite.
Vietnam could and would do well if she stays focus on her inner strenght and have good friends . Just look at proven history facts for the last two thousands years, Vietnam was able to resist the big bully China that has been trying to annex and colonize Vietnam many times for several thousands years. Feel free to name a similar size nation that was able to survive a big bully neighbor for such a long period of time.
John Chan, your ridiculous statements and inaccurate stories make you and Chinese people like you look very bad and not well educated in the eyes of the readers worldwide. So far, you are still unable to provide any unbiased sources to back up your statements but I did several times. You fail as a debater.
Nguyen
Yeah, your people with integrity are also the ones who poured lead on toys and dumped toxins in milk for children. Very trustworthy, indeed.
Long
Chan,
what are you trying to make with the 4th point: Vietnam was part of China a few times in the past. Did you ever ask yourself: for those time when your Chinese ancestor brutally invaded and occupied Vietnam, did the Vietnamese ever welcome that your ancestors presence?
Observer is absolutely right: should China be a province of England then? Or even more recently, should China be a state of Japan then since Japan invaded and occupied China during WW2?
About the Chinese writing (han) and the old Vietnamese writing (nom) relationship. Everyone knows that the Japanese currently uses the simplified version of Chinese writing. Does that mean Japan should be now part of China? Similarly, all the south american countries, with the exception of Brazil, speaks Spanish currently. Does that mean they are all should be states of Spain?
Same thing for French speaking countries. Yes, they were once occupied by the French people, but they are not French.
Long
Chan,
I’m still waiting for your response
Long
Chan,
I need to reply to the remaining two comments of yours:
1. China did not really “help” Vietnam to fight Western countries. China actually wants to use Vietnam along with other smaller neighboring countries as a buffer for its own national securities. By sending arms and aids to Vietnam, North Korea, Cambodia, Myanmar, Pakistan…China creates an array of satellite countries around herself so that China has some cushion if ever attacked by stronger countries. It all serves China’s strategical purposes. Can’t call that help
2. I think you need to read more to know that the two main reasons China aggressively invaded Vietnam in 1979 were:
a. Vietnam signed the treaty with the Soviet union in 1978 which China viewed as a betrayal action.
b. Vietnam overthrowned Chinense backed regime of Pol Pot in Cambodia because Pol Pot attacked the southern provinces of Vietnam and killed many Vietnamese who lived in Cambodia. Chinese leaders could not stand still to see their little brother Pol Pot got his butts kicked by the Vietnamese, so the Chinese invaded Vietnam to retaliate.
John Chan
@Long, you and Observer are the same; you guys will never get it. What you guys are trying to do is to monopolize truth, just like the West and its lackeys. Only hegemony monopolizes truth to cover their untruthfulness. Any information is not in your interest, you become hysteria.
John Chan
@Observer,
Here we go again, I will have to straighten up your ridiculous and inaccurate statements, again.
Your links (Wikipedia) are well known written by creative revisionist historians worldwide. They are well known because they present fabricated facts and totally ignoring the ancient historical documents from China, and totally for misinformation purposes set up by nations. Excluding ancient historical documents is one of the evidences of creative revisionist historical writing. Ancient Chinese writings are the reliable sources for history of Asia, because the West and its lackeys are so backward in history documentation, so they have to create them thru the thin air to suite their hideous purposes.
Chinese bloggers kept exposing about how bad the Japanese treat Chinese in WW2 yet the West and its lackeys kept silent about how Chinese was badly treated in world and enslaved in the last few centuries. Talk about hypocrite.
Vietnam cannot and will not do well if she stays focus on her bellicose path like India and Japan. Just look at proven history facts for the last two decades, Vietnam was the big bully SE Asia that has been trying to annex and colonize its neighbours. Feel free to name a similar size nation that was as imperialistic and bellicose for such a long period of time.
Observer(what is it?), your ridiculous statements and inaccurate stories make you and anti-China people look very bad and not well educated in the eyes of the readers worldwide. So far, you are still unable to accept the evidence that you are a born creative revisionist history writer. You are a failed debater.
John Chan
@Observer, here is one of the references you need, 安南志略, let me know you need more.
Khue Nguyen Quang
@John Chan:
How can you say that over 5000 years of China history, there is no fabricated history? You overtrusted our own country source because you love your country, I understand. However, you should not criticize any sources which was not written in Chinese because they are the world’s knowledges, not just of only one country in West or East. Besides, to demonstrate my point, I think you should know what happened at Red Quarter of your country. The Chinese Party killed many people in that event and they didn’t write anything about the event and fabicated the history in another direction for them. From this event, I can say with no hestitation that any source from China and written in Chinese can be WRONG and CANNOT be fully TRUSTED as well as any other sources in this world. So don’t show them here, show what all of us can accept!
Khue Nguyen Quang
@John Chan,
It’s nice to meet you and I am a Vietnamese. I have to admit one thing that I really hate Chinese people but I don’t think you Chinese are all that bad, there are still a lot of good people amongst you guys and if I can, I will still make friend with them. So I’m sure my comments will be more gentle than any Vietnamese who may hate Chinese people :)
Let us get to the point.
1. You’ve mentioned that China helped Vietnam to fight invaders? Yes, it was but how can you explain about China support for Pol Pot right after that (Pol Pot can really be consider an invader not only to our country at that time), how can you explain the war between our country for thousand years and recently in 1979? If you find the right sources, you will know why. Any “help” from China has its value and its meaning behind. There is no voluntary help.
2. About what you call in English: South China Sea, I will call it my own (or ASEAN own way to call it): East Sea. You stated that Vietnamese occupied Chinese island illegally? Who said that those islands is yours and your country? The UN didn’t say that, right? And to be objective, I will not say those islands is our own islands, but I will say it will be ASEAN’s islands (but not China’s).
3. What a joke when you tell people that we Vietnamese has our own writing at that time in the history (the time when French colonized our country to be precise)! Our WRITING at that time is actually come from China and it remained so for thousand years after you Chinese force us to use YOUR writing! It is a very big mistake if you say our writing was lost because of French when it had already lost long before the French came. China burnt our country’s culture in blood and fire, your country even tried to burn our bronze drums just to eliminate our knowledge about our own ancient civilization. Unfortunately, China couldn’t and I tell you as long as we Vietnamese live we will NEVER EVER surrender our own culture to China. Of course, if China wants to have something like cultural exchange then it will be fine.
4. You stated that our country was a part of China in the past? Oh come on! Our country was too small when compare to the VERY BIG brother China but that DOES NOT mean we depended on your country! Everytime China tried to make us its territory, it failed. We had our own king even our king had to stay below China’s king just to protect our peace. We Vietnamese never want a pointless war against any one, we just want peace. Vietnamese always worry, always hate and even have a little scare about China but we fought to protect our country from the invasion of China more than any other countries invasion. In the history, China even have to surrender to Mongol and Qing but we didn’t, how can you say if once in a while Mongol and Qing people say that China was a part of Mongol or Qing dynasty? A country was a part of another country if it did not have its rule but we always have our ruler.
If you still think you and my people were in the same country named China then we will say: “No thanks!”
Ksou
I don’t really understand this . China has the capacity to take over most of Asia( except S.Korea, Japan and Russia) in less then a month due to sheer numbers . By this I mean occupy, controlling these territories for any length of time would be a different story .
Not that China would have ANY interest in doing this, but its not wise to appear to challenge an enemy far more powerful then you. I think China’s just doing what America did to South America in the 1900’s . As an American, I believe this isn’t our problem . If China wants us to stay out of South East Asia( just like we wouldn’t like their navy in Central America ) we should stay out .
ASEAN
Ksou, are you sure you’re an American? If so, then you should learn a thing or two about geo-politics before “deciding” to do just whatever China wants. While you’re at it, check out how much countries like Japan, South Korea and U.S. are dependent on those sea lanes to get their merchandise and raw materials to and from other markets. The sea south of China is an international commerce zone -preferably policed by a more reliable force such as the U.S. 7th Fleet, which as we all know never used their warships disguised as civil ships to ram helpless, unarmed fishing boats or hijacking fishing vessels and demanding ransom like a bunch of thugs.
Long
Are you sure you are an American? Maybe you are a Chinese American and don’t see why the US should be be involved in this. If the US chooses to stay out and let the Chinese forcefully take control of the whole South east asia (whether the sea, the islands or the countries), then the rest of the world would have to face another cold war, but this time it’s the Chinese, not the Russians. By then, the US would not have access to that side of the world. All the ships (whether military or civilian) would have to go around the east side of the Phillipines, down to Australia to get to the Indian ocean.
Kat
You say: China is able take over most of Asian countries?? LOL Give me a break! China can’t even win against Vietnam let alone…You probably overestimate China too much. Don’t forget in 1979, Vietnam beat the heck out of China.
Viet
As our Trung sisters, Trieu sister, and Tran Hung Dao etc… whom protected Vietnam in the past. We will do so. High tech equipments needed, but the main core is the love of the country.
For thousand of years Chinese wanted to occupy and got kick out not only by men, also women. Genghis Khan used Chinese troops to occupy Vietnam got kick out 3 times.
Jan 19th 1974. Chinese occupied the Hoang Sa (Paracel Islands) from South Vietnam.
And claimed it since then, which violated Vietnam sovereignty. Also Occupied 1988 killed unarms men who were holding Vietnam flag in our soil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNqRhOSEzRQ&feature=related
John Chan
Please do not incite hostility that you will not risk your own life. Both China and Vietnam try to improve relationship under difficult situation. Get rid of that disgusting French imposed European Latin alphabet writing and recover your ancestor’s writing is a more meaningful way to be patriotic, and maintain Vietnam sovereignty and dignity.
Ly Tran Le Nguyen
You call that a “difficult situation”: The “brave” Chinese navy machine-gunned dozens of unarmed Vietnamese sailors standing in knee-deep water who posed absolutely no threats to the mighty Chinese navy?
The French didn’t impose anything on modern Vietnamese writing. The Vietnamese chose the Roman alphabet in order to reject the association that they are related to Chinese. Unlike the Chinese, the French never tried to erase the Viet culture. That’s a fact.
John Chan
“Stockholm syndrome” is a term used to describe a paradoxical psychological phenomenon wherein hostages express adulation and have positive feelings towards their captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors as an act of kindness.
Ly Tran Le Nguyen’s explanation on Romanized Vietnamese writing showed a positive identification of Stockholm syndrome in Vietnam at national level. Instead of feeling ashamed of losing thousands of years heritage, Vietnamese express adulations and have positive feelings towards their abusive ex-colonial master, the French, and mistake a lack of abuse from their ex-colonial master as an act of kindness.
Ly’s logic is puzzling, in order to reject the association of one dominant culture, so Vietnamese associate to another dominant culture meanwhile giving up thousands of years of their own heritage and literature, art, etc. work done by their ancestors. Korean has done better job, at least they create their own writing in order to disassociate with its previous dominant culture, although Korean has to pay the price for the inferior writing system, such as imprecision expression and less vivid.
Maybe Vietnamese should change to use English alphabet all together, at least it offers efficiency, popularity and cost benefits, such as computer keyboards and other equipment will cost less.
The rational for Vietnamese change from one better writing system to a less capable writing system leaves people scratching their heads; the Romanized Vietnamese writing can only express sound; it has lost its ancient writing’s abilities to express meaning symbolically and artistic expression, what is the benefit for a less capable tool?
Ly Tran Le Nguyen
What is the best benefit? I couldn’t stop laughing from your silly school boy assertion touting “benefits” without a slightest shame of losing face. Just ask yourself what kind of language you’re using right now to express your view on the Internet? And who created the Internet, by the way? 5000 years of so-called “civilization”, what benefits did that bring to the table vs. a less than 300-year-old country?
Dai Viet
@John Chan: such an iron when you mentioned “Stockholm syndrome”. Due to the nature of imperialism and expansionism of China, Chinese nowadays are made up of the bulk of the conquered people and tribes which had been assimilated and absorbed into the greater China. Who knows, you should do a family tracing to see who your ancestors really were. Irony is such a bitch.
John Chan
French had done a better job than I expected. Maybe the US and Japanese need to learn a trick or two from French while they were at Vietnam.
voz
I can’t believe Vietnamese are doing this to China. Before colonial times, the Chinese influence on Vietnam was MUTUAL, it was not China ‘forcefully applied’ its culture in Vietnam, Vietnam did its part in absorbing and generalized it.
Long
Chan,
I could not control my laughs reading your rediculous comment about the Latin alphabet writing the Vietnamese people is using. Why don’t you ask the Japanese and the Philipines to stop celebrating their new year’s day on January 1st?
Those two countries stopped celebrating Lunar’s (not Chinese, like many ppl mistakenly called it)new year years ago…have Japanese and Philipinos lost their dignity?
I just wish the Vietnamese ppl will abandon the Lunar’s new year celebration soon. Man, that would make someone unhappy…
Thanh
It would make Chinese people happy too if you abandon the lunar calendar. Just do your part in eliminating all things Chinese. Make our country nothing more than a former French Colony called Indochina. China has nothing to worry because she knows when she become strong and rich, Vietnam would shamelessly come back and adopt the Chinese characters and lunar calendar back again.
Then when China weakens again 500 years later, your great-grandchild would throw away Chinese characters and lunar calendar again, and blame China for influenced their culture on Vietnam forcefully. The vicious cycle never ends, poor China just have to accept the fact that she is sitting in the middle of all these betrayers.
Long
And who knows if the writing the Chinese is using is actually invented by Han people. You are so proud of your forbidden city architecture. Who was the architect of your wonderful forbidden city? A Vietnamese guy named Nguyen An. Here’s the link: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/9302-vietnamese-architect-in-beijings-forbidden-city/
Of course, you would deny this fact. Same thing with the East Vietnam sea, you make groundless claims on the sea and islands that do not belong to China.
Dai Viet
Hu Shih, (1891-1962), Chinese philosopher in Republican China. He was ambassador to the U.S. (1938-42) and chancellor of Peking University (1946-48). He said:
“India conquered and dominated China culturally for two thousand years without ever having to send a single soldier across her border.”
source: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/India_and_China.htm
Gerry
For your information, China does not deny the fact that Nguyen An (Ruan An) played a crucial role in designing and building the Forbidden City. The record and details about him are easily found in both English and Chinese media online. But you don’t have to be so cocky for that, Nguyen An was sent to Beijing as a ‘tribute’ (means a gift from a vessel state) from Vietnam, he was lawfully considered as a Ming-Chinese and palatial personnel after he became an eunuch serving the Court (his Annamese ethnicity has never been denied by China).
Moreover, he was among a group of multi-ethnic talented architects and great designers who cooperatively worked on the project. I don’t understand why you say like China wiped out his history, credits & details on purpose? No offence (I’m not Chinese anyway) but his success is largely because the Imperial Court saw his talents and have given him great opportunities to work on the palace. If it wasn’t the Ming-Chinese, Nguyen An would probably lived his life as a peasant in Vietnam. (Which you got nothing to show off about now)
Observer
@ John Chan
Give us neutral source(s) in English so the rest of us could read. To the worldwide readers of The Diplmat, this is what Vietnam, Phillipine, Indonesia, and other nations in Southeast Asia have to put up with the big bully dominate China.
Here are my sources, from this very own website. What do you and your Chinese bloggers have to say now?
http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2010/06/07/choppy-sino-viet-ties-waters/
………….”In January 1974, China captured the Paracel islands from Vietnam, while in 1988, the navies of China and Vietnam clashed over possession of the Johnson Reef in the Spratly Islands, an incident that saw several Vietnamese vessels sunk, with dozens of its sailors perishing.
The issue flared again when China last May presented a claim to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea to 80 percent of the South China Sea. China has since then been more ‘rigorously’ enforcing its claims to the area, including to the Spratlys and Paracels, at the expense of Vietnamese fishermen who have seen their boats rammed and had catches of fish confiscated.”
http://the-diplomat.com/2010/05/06/china-ready-to-dominate-seas/
………….”In each of these cases, China failed to comply with its obligations under international law to show due regard for the rights of vessels and aircraft of other nations operating in the East and South China Seas.
At the same time, China has been equally obstinate in pressing specious ‘territorial’ claims to virtually the entire South China Sea. In 1953, China issued an infamous map with a U-shaped, ‘nine-dotted line’ that laid claim to 80 percent of the South China Sea. Today, the line is derisively called ‘the cow tongue.’ In 1974, China seized the Paracel Islands from Vietnam. In 1988, China again attacked Vietnamese forces on Johnson Reef and occupied six features in the Spratly Islands, and in 1994 Beijing captured Mischief Reef from the Philippines.”
http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2010/09/10/china-fishing-for-outrage/
………….”And the inconsistency I hinted at? Well, last summer saw a comparable example, with Vietnamese fishermen eventually being released after being detained by China for supposedly violating China’s territorial waters (this policy of unilaterally declaring waters its own and off-limits is an ongoing sore spot between these two countries—and indeed with some of China’s other neighbours). The Vietnamese government for its part said the fishermen were operating in Vietnamese waters. The clearest difference (so far) between Zhan’s case and last year’s is that back then it was 25 Vietnamese fishermen that were held—and they were detained for months.”
Now your turn, John Chan. Give us something that is not propaganda in English so we could read for ourselves.
John Chan
@Long, you missed the point, a nation wants to be strong, and it must look into the mirror, and see what are its weaknesses and what are its strong points. China has a lot of problems, but China adapts and improves itself continuously. When China failed to improve that was its down time in history, when China succeeded in improving that was its up time in history, right now China is on path of up. Yet Vietnam just wants to change for the sake of change regardless the cost, just like those mindless Chinese who just want to have the appearance of democracy regardless the cost, even at the cost of breaking up China and being enslaved by the imperial West and its lackeys as in the era of unequal treaties. Japan adopts Chinese culture happily, but why can’t Vietnamese do the same? Vietnamese rather cut off their ancient heritage to defend a colonialism leftover, it is just puzzling.
Chinese know there were a lot Vietnamese who had made great contributions to China; there was a Vietnamese doctor even involved in palace politics in Ming dynasty in according to history. Vietnam and China had good relationship in the history generally, but why the Vietnamese bloggers are so hostile to China nowadays is beyond comprehension, is it because China helped North Vietnam kicked out the imperialist USA and in the process overrun South Vietnam?
I guessed you were pretty upset about my comment; your remark on the Japanese and the Pilipino does not make sense.
Anyhow, the bellicose posture held the Vietnamese bloggers does not help Vietnam, but only benefits the imperial USA and its lackeys like India, that’s why Vietnamese government rather talks business with China instead of those explosive issues which are the tools used by the US to create instability in Asia for its benefits.
Long
Chan,
“Vietnam and China had good relationship in the history generally”. This statement of yours might reflect Chinese’s viewpoint, but if you ask Vietnamese, I can assure you 100% of Vietnamese will disagree with this statement. How can it be a good relationship when China invaded and occupied Vietnam repeatedly?
And I am just wondering why the Chinese like you is so “concerned” about the choice the Vietnamese people make. Why are you bothered when the Vietnamese decided to use Latin alphabet writing? Why do you care so much? Why don’t you mind your own business. Your concern shows one thing: the Chinese never stop their dream of conquering Vietnam and turn its people into Chinese. To achieve that dream, the first thing is to eradicate the Vietnamese language. The Chinese succesfully eradicated the Manchurian language (only a few Manchurian people can speak their language now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_language). The Chinese is trying to do the same thing to Tibetian. Eyeing on the Vietnamese people and its language?
Dai Viet
Throughout history, people who has the ability to adapt will have a better chance of survival. In this digital age, typing on a computer using a Latin-based (alphabet) seems like a better adaptation. John Chan, trying typing with Chinese characters. How’s your Pinyin (Latin-based representation of Chinese sound) coming along?
Long
Chan,
I was born after the Vietnam war. So, the fact that China “helped” North Vietnam does not make me angry like you speculated. To me, there is only one Vietnam and the biggest threat to Vietnam is China, not Communist Vietnamese or pro-western Vietnamese.
You still believe that China really helped Vietnam to fight the French and the US? Then, would you please explain to me why the Chinese leaders, via the French ambassador to south Vietnam, informed the South Vietnamese leaders that China would send aids so that the South could fight back the North Vietnamese when the North was about to win the war? This fact shows that China really wanted to see the Vietnamese to fight each other as long as possible. Let me know if you need link about this fact.
You either are brain washed by the Chinese government or do not have enouth knowledge about history. China never has any good relationship with Vietnam.
Dai Viet
It doesn’t help especially when the Chinese are still holding an “We are the center of the world” attitude.
JD
It is not only Vietnames doctor but there was an Indian doctor Dwarkanath S. Kotnis also, a great internationalist and a close friend of the Chinese people.
http://china.org.cn/english/Life/50635.htm
Japan adopts Chinese culture happily.Do they?
Thanh
@ John Chan.
It won’t matter how much you argue for China nor how the rest argue for Vietnam. Time and fate will decide the future of China, Vietnam, the US, and the rest of the world. Whether China will rule the world or burn to the ground. Whether it will expand further and swallow more territory from its neighbors or be broken up/Balkanized into smaller, weaker states. Interesting times we live in.
Don
I agree with the comments of ASEAN on March 28, 2011 at 5:39 pm 100 percent. I also agree with commnents of BBMarch on 29, 2011 at 3:55 pm. I do not think the guy called himself VIETNAM is a Viet. He must be a Chinese who use VIETNAM name as a dirty trick.
david
USA is an independent country today, but that does not change the fact that it was part of British land. Vietnam is an independent country today, and everyone here agreed, it was under China’s rule for thousands of years. Why do people here can only accept part of the history? Forty years ago, South Vietnam and North Vietnam were two independent countries.
Nghia
I’m Vietnamese boat people and now live in U.S. If China invades Vietnam, I will come back to my country and fight until my last breath. I don’t care communist or whatsoever. Let to the point, China is number 1 enemy of Vietnam, I Hate big bully China
stevenz667
It is sad to see people argue here and say they will go to war for their own national interests. From different perspectives, these different territory requirements do make sense to some degree. The key is to solve the problem based on international law and through peaceful negotiation. As a chinese, i got along well with all different people i met from different asian countries and dont want to have a war with any of them.
Hugh Nye
The world already knew how terrible China had treated it neighbors’ countries. China is nothing but a Bullier and I personally would like to see China should get their asses kick by the world alliances. China had had taught the world nothing but human trafficking,bribery,cheating,bullying and many more unacceptable things that they had done to the world. I don’t like China period!!!!
Vietnamese
I am Vietnamese. Now I live in Viet Nam with 80 millions others people and all of us will fight again the invaders if they dare to come invade Viet Nam and kill our fishermen.
Big bully China. You wait!
Nguyen
for thousand years, our father fought and died for our land. We are going to do the same. Just like Nguyen Trung Truc said, fight until the last man.
Chan
I am a Vietnamese, and even though I left the country and migrated to America when I was 9, I still know that China was very my country’s friend. The fact that we even have song, and quite a popular song, which has a sentence like this, “one thousand year slaving for the Chinese,” does not prove good friendship at all. Also, like most have said before, our language is from Nom, and the Chinese forced us to learn their language, and talking about erasing culture, as if during the time, any Vietnamese knew Chinese besides Scholars, which was not a lot. So we were just being practical and real when we decided Latin alphabet is more realistic. Changing the alphabet doesn’t change our culture, because first of, we did not have the writing in the first place except from the Chinese writing. And second, we speak Vietnamese, not Chinese, so if we keep the culture that John Chan suggests, then it means learning Chinese culture instead, then in the end, we are not keeping to our culture. The point is, we speak Vietnamese, and we write Vietnamese, and Chinese language is itself. Even the Japanese have Hiragana and Katakana, rather than just using Kanji.
And also, Chinese people should careless about Vietnamese people. In fact, focus on yourself, your country is making a lot of fake stuff to the point that even yourself is a source of pollution. Honestly speaking, I think China won’t get destroy by the rest of the world, but by themselves because of their own pollution and poisonous foods.
David
Hi All,
We all should live on peace. Heaven or hell is here on earth. War = Hell ; Peace = Heaven.
I don’t understand why China alway has wars with its neighbors. To got more land ? They has a large of land already. May be they want to reduce their population because more than a billion already and one child policy did work any more under free economy !!!
voz
I think you have made a mistake. China does not have wars with all its neighbours, in fact, China keeps peaceful borders with most of them. Unlike Vietnam, which fought ALL its neighbours before!
Nguyen
Do you know the definition of the word “empire”? If not, search for the definition, then add it after “China”.
Sam
Ok, I don’t know that much about Vietnamese history, but how did Japan redeem themselves after their WW2 crimes?
Trying to whitewash history to hide their shameful past?
Of course the US and the west forgave the Japanese for their crimes (against asian countries), especially since they didn’t support communism.
If the west forgives a country, I guess that’s what really counts for people who looooooove white dick.
disclosed
I am American.
Rewind a little bit. Now in retrospect, Where was everyone when China was being semi-colonized?
Rewind a little more. Now in retrospect, Why hasn’t Japan apologized for its war crimes?
Rewind a some more. Now in retrospect, Where are the American Indians?
One thing we can learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Vietnamese or not, you must know your place in the international community. US is not a one sided leverage tool that only yields 100% gains for yourself. All wars with no exception are fought with strings attached. No country in the history if mankind has aided another purely for the sake of friendship.
Re-examine your place.
I’d also encourage you to re-examine your history books again while you’re at it.
Iron-cold fact
The fact here is crystal clear. This is the last chance for Vietnam to garner international sympathy to support its territorial claim on South China Sea, because China needs another decade to focus on its economic development in a relatively peaceful environment. That is why China has been relatively refrained in the recent incidents except for exchange of harsh words. If Vietnamese are really naive to believe that any bigger powers will come to their help in a military conflict with China, please tell me what Soviet Union did to help in the 1979 border war? Foreign fleet may go back home and naval base may be closed eventually, but China was, is and will always be to the North. A precipitous increase in defense budget would do little to the hugely disadvantageous position of Vietnam, because China can spare a few percentage of its military spending for more dams and water reserviors along Lancang river, which will be devastating to downstream country’s agricultural irrigation. The outcome of the war is known without a bullet being fired. Admit or not, the iron-cold fact of international relationship is that jungle rules prevail. It is the bigger and stronger one to call for war or truce, not the smaller and weaker one.
Peace
China is very aggressive, selfish, haughty. She kill all the neighbouring countries since ancient time that have always been a main her policy. In the modern time during the 20th century China attacked almost neighbouring countries; 1965 attacked India, 1969 Soviet Union and 1979 Vietnam. Nowaday, She proclaims 80% of South China sea belong to her. China is very aggressive, selfish, haughty. She kill all the neighbouring countries since ancient time that is alway a main policy. In the modern time during the 20th century China attacked almost neighbouring countries; 1965 attacked India, 1969 Soviet Union and 1979 Vietnam. Nowaday, She proclaims 80% of South China sea belong to her.
China’s policies are use the huge of government to rival with the independent companies of developed countries. It is not an unfair rival at all by that China will reject all the competitor of any countries. If I were the western leaders I would taught China a lesson by boycott all product made in China and invest to her neighbouring countries as Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia with the similar prodcut but with western standard. In a short time Chinese goods and products will no longer survived. In fact that Chinese companies alway sell in a very cheap price but the quality is very bad. China’s policies are use the huge of government to rival with the independent companies of developed countries. It is not an unfair rival at all by that China will reject all the competitor of any countries. If I were the western leaders I would taught China a lesson by boycott all product made in China and invest to her neighbouring countries as Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia with the similar prodcut but with western standard. In a short time Chinese goods and products will no longer survived. In fact that Chinese companies alway sell in a very cheap price but the quality is very bad.
Chinese strategy is to kill people and acculturate the neighborhood by force them to depend on her. In the past, China advertised to buy cattle toenail all the border line with Vietnam and corn silk…Finally the people along the border kill all cattle and cut down the corn field to became hunger. Then she provided food and many demand. The purpose of Chinese ruler wanted the people along border rebel but we have our own trick. About two decade ago China sold eggs with very cheep price that make the navtive similar ones could not survive. The motorbike, automobile she did the same. And know the high speed railway is not exception, she stole and copied the Japanese and French hi tech then she rival unfair. The further strategy is that she will raise the price when other competitor died. Thermo-electric powers in Vietnam nowadays are the good example. Firstly, she offerred in a very low price and she won all the project in Vietnam at that field. Secondly she take all the workers, materials from home (even the toilet) to your counties. The final, she delay and no one know when they are finished. It is the main reason why Vietnam lack of electricity. That is the lesson for Vietnam and other counties all over the world.
voz
I don’t know if you are a Vietnamese but please never be a leader for any country. You will ruin the country and drag it into wars.
Tense
Chinese culture and it’s civilization today in fact that it collected and stole from many tribal during invasion in the past. China was the only country could build the strongest ship in the 15th century. But the western countries copied all then used that technic to invade China.
Peace
China is very aggressive, selfish, haughty. She kill all the neighbouring countries since ancient time that have always been a main her policy. In the modern time during the 20th century China attacked almost neighbouring countries; 1965 attacked India, 1969 Soviet Union and 1979 Vietnam. Nowaday, She proclaims 80% of South China sea belong to her.
China’s policies are use the huge of government fund to rival with the independent companies of developed countries. It is not an unfair rival at all by that China will reject all the competitor of any countries. If I were the western leaders I would taught China a lesson by boycott all product made in China and invest to her neighbouring countries as Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia with the similar prodcut but with western standard. In a short time Chinese goods and products will no longer survived. In fact that Chinese companies alway sell in a very cheap price but the quality is very bad. Chinese strategy is to kill people and acculturate the neighborhood by force them to depend on her. In the past, China advertised to buy cattle toenail all the border line with Vietnam and corn silk…Finally the people along the border kill all cattle and cut down the corn field to became hunger. Then she provided food and many demand. The purpose of Chinese ruler wanted the people along border rebel but we have our own trick. About two decade ago China sold eggs with very cheep price that make the navtive similar ones could not survive. The motorbike, automobile she did the same. And know the high speed railway is not exception, she stole and copied the Japanese and French hi tech then she rival unfair. The further strategy is that she will raise the price when other competitor died. Thermo-electric powers in Vietnam nowadays are the good example. Firstly, she offerred in a very low price and she won all the project in Vietnam at that field. Secondly she take all the workers, materials from home (even the toilet) to your counties. The final, she delay and no one know when they are finished. It is the main reason why Vietnam lack of electricity. That is the lesson for Vietnam and other counties all over the world.
david
I am appalled at the animosity some vietnamese bloggers expressed towards china and chinese people. Though vienamese have some historical grievances against its bigger neighbour to vent out, who doesn’t. If u ask some cambodians, they probablly feel same way towards vietnam. Nobody is liked universally. Speaking of this dispute, its not how u speak those empty rehtorics or put some sabre-rattling on display, what it comes down to is determnation and capability to enforce ur claim. Exhibit a- falkland island between england and argentina. And i bet usa won’t get involved if the conflict is restricted between two countries and around pratly islands. Why would yankees risk a full blown war with china on behalf of vietna, the very country they fought a bloody war against and still despise for their flagrant violation of human rights and communist ideology ( same can be said about china, but china is not screaming for help). Dont forget they still have iraq and afghanistan hot potatoes. Seriously, china is no walkover. They will need full mobilisation if usa comes to blows with china for what, bunch of islands vietnam want to have but cant keep. To yankees, vietnam is no japan or south korea, not even philipine or taiwan, a self-ruled island claimed by china, which us is having second thoughts about defending. Now they are not even comfortable with back seat position in nato-led aerial operation against lybia where there is no resistance, casualty is low, cost only like 20 m a week to run. Imagine having a war with china over something that concerns us little provided china does not go on warpath to enforce their claim over majority of south china. And i believe china is too smart to do the extreme.
To sum up, its time for both parties to scale down their war of wards exchange, especially vietnam, signing decree for mandatory conscription only highlights their desperation. China on the other hand should not indulge its war mongering militaries in the childish display of petulance and immaturity. After all, without those intimidation and taunting, asean countries still know who the big brother is. As for vietnamese people, get over your sinophobia.
david
I am appalled at the animosity some vietnamese bloggers expressed towards china and chinese people. Though vienamese have some historical grievances against its bigger neighbour to vent out, who doesn’t. If u ask some cambodians, they probablly feel same way towards vietnam. Nobody is liked universally. Speaking of this dispute, its not how u speak those empty rehtorics or put some sabre-rattling on display, what it comes down to is determnation and capability to enforce ur claim. Exhibit a- falkland island between england and argentina. And i bet usa won’t get involved if the conflict is restricted between two countries and around pratly islands. Why would yankees risk a full blown war with china on behalf of vietna, the very country they fought a bloody war against and still despise for their flagrant violation of human rights and communist ideology ( same can be said about china, but china is not screaming for help). Dont forget they still have iraq and afghanistan hot potatoes. Seriously, china is no walkover. They will need full mobilisation if usa comes to blows with china for what, bunch of islands vietnam want to have but cant keep. To yankees, vietnam is no japan or south korea, not even philipine or taiwan, a self-ruled island claimed by china, which us is having second thoughts about defending. Now they are not even comfortable with back seat position in nato-led aerial operation against lybia where there is no resistance, casualty is low, cost only like 20 m a week to run. Imagine having a war with china over something that concerns us little provided china does not go on warpath to enforce their claim over majority of south china. And i believe china is too smart to do the extreme.
To sum up, its time for both parties to scale down their war of wards exchange, especially vietnam, signing decree for mandatory conscription only highlights their desperation. China on the other hand should not indulge its war mongering militaries in the childish display of petulance and immaturity. After all, without those intimidation and taunting, asean countries still know who the big brother is. As for vietnamese people, get over your sinophobia. You need them more both politically and economically than the other way around. And you know it.
the southeastasian
@david: Very interesting comments! From economic view you are right. Dont be worried about the life of US soldiers for this confict. The Vietnamese know the Chinese psychology too well. I believe that they can stand on its own like they have done it over the past thousand years. For Vietnam, the point is not a better living conditions in economic matter under the Chinese ruler but the will survive as a independent nation.
david
I am not even sure if vietnamese people understand this but i will lay it on you anyway. Its all economy baby. Vietnam runs like 15% inflation, its currency has depreciated against dollar more than 20 times over last decade, and is having current account deficit of nearly $60 billion that is20% GDP with budget deficit of 7% GDP. Dont u see what is happening your stupid vietnamese. Yet, you guys still splurge billions of dollars precious foreign reserve on weapons, something u can afford to do. U can argue that its the principle that no expnse will be spared when it comes to sourveignty. Can u guys do what europeans, south koreans and japan is doing piggy-backing on a free ride. South korea spends like less than 4% on defense less than their protector us even though seoul is just within the range of north artillery. Why cant ur guys do the same even it means it can only be accomplished at little expense of national sourveignty and ego. Be it as it may, u can still have ur economic development on track so is living standards while u having majority under $1000 per year. Thats china’s long term game plan. Stirring up a little hostility with show of force, everyone including us generals and senators begin shitting their thus the arm race dragging. All of those talks on curbing the deficit on capitol hill will turn out to empty words only. No one will sacrifice their pet projects as long as pentagon have like 1 trillion to flash around.
While china spends like 2% on defense which they calculate they can afford, by mere showing of aircraft carrier, stealth fighter or long range missiles, it triggers an arm race not seen since the end of cold, so everyone wins but the health of various economies and tax payers. If usa can not foot the bill, how in gods name is vietnam gonna pull this one off. Believe me, with all hot rehtorics uttered, when vietnam economy sinks, only one that can hold the ship together is china due to geo-proxicinity and interwined political and economical interests. When that happens, i dont know if just a couple of islands will go away.
Tense
Hey david. I’ve just found this topic and I’ve read all your comments. It seems to me that you are a Chinese American so that your ideas is very very complicated. I mean the way of expressing your ideas is very difficutl to understand. You should learn more about Vietnam history and Chinese history. You meant that Vietnam attacked Cambodia 1977 hence Cambodian “probablly feel same way towards vietnam”. Why so? You know, because of China supported and incited Red Khme to attacked Vietnam. Red Khmer killed 3 millions it’fellow-citizens. But we’ve never attacked China, we have always protected our motherland from Chinese Invasion. How do you compare that? Vietnam is not the only country in south-east asian but also many other countries that denounce China by her action. It is also the american and the world interest as Hilary Clinton declaration.
Tense
“While china spends like 2% on defense which they calculate they can afford, by mere showing of aircraft carrier, stealth fighter or long range missiles…”.
Yes. China has gained many thing as you said but in a dirty way. India could does but she respect the copyright law. Anyway, many expert say that all Chinese weapons are in low quality and It take many many years for her to have a fifth generation aircraft.
hoo
China does not have many friends in its neighborhood,in fact it does not have any friends with relations with most countries being quite tense.The only friends it has is a tinpot communist dictatorship North Korea which has managed to keep its citizens in the Stone Age and Pakistan which is well on its way to become a failed state with a suicide bombing a day.What is interesting is that China holds the world record for sharing borders with the maximum number of countries,so one would consider it prudent to hold good relations with a large number of them.On the contrary China has had tense relations with almost all of them with low level military incidents the order of the day.China has a very cagey relationship with India where tensions have risen all the time with numerous friction points like Tibet,Arunachal Pradesh,supplying Pakistan with arms and building ports in smaller countries.South Korea alleged cyberattack a few months ago from hackers close to the Chinese government as well.
(by : Abhishek Shah with the title: China Leveraging Industrial Strength to become Low Cost Weapons Exporter Threatening Russia)
Hai Ba Trung
The Chinese keep telling the Vietnamese to read history. Maybe they should read up on real history too. We have defeated Chinese army many time in 1/9/11/12/17th century to be where we are today instead of just another minority ethnic group in Han China. We know how to fight, can fight, and willing to fight to defend our motherland. We will be victorious and teach the Chinese a few lessons as we had in the past. Chinese history is full of crap. You never put in your history book when you lose , do you ? You brainwashed your students into thinking China never lose to anyone heh ? Well you lost many wars to Vietnamese. Learn your history and lessons and let’s live in peace. We don’t pick fight but will oblige if Chinese decide to pick a fight.
Hai Ba Trung
All the Chinese should also tone down. You all sound arrogant and cocky. The Western power don’t understand Chinese the way the Vietnamese do. The Chinese are dangerous when they are in power. Just think what will happen to this world if the Chinese is the most powerful country ?. The reason that that they are able to make noise now because all the stupid Western capitalists who want to make quick money and move all the job overseas. And all the consumer who buy Made In China. You are helping China and you are giving them the weapon to stab you in the back a generation from now. Trust me. We know Chinese !!!
Anamist
Please read this aticle” Scotland’s Lesson for China” By James R. Holme. You will be satisfied.
Hai Ba Trung
I think James R. Home analysis is flawed. China is not overexerting itself at all. They aim to be the dominant power in the Pacific and overpower country like Vietnam. The US will not go to war over this and will eventually leave the theater to China to dominate. Vietnam need to stand on its own.
ninh tran
Chill down everyone!!!
The truth is somewhere in between these assertions. We don’t need wars to resolve these disputes, do we? I’m sure someone will come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone.
Until then, let’s continue to debate but not fight, shall we?
Hai Ba Trung
Ninh
Really … China claim all of the East Sea up to the shoreline of Vietnamese coast. Hoang Sa and Truong Sa is historically part of Vietnam. How do you debate that ? The Chinese say : All of this belong to us. now let’s discuss this … How do you debate something like that. Well you stand your ground and be prepared to defend
voz
Even China made such claims, It is Vietnam which is aggressively invading all the islands and shoals. Even starting to populate all the islands without following the international law. The region is disputed, China has the right to take back the half islands!
Dai Nam
Viet Nam has been defeated world super power countries.
Viet Nam has defeated Mongolia, China, French and United State of America.
This is the Fact as the world knows.
If Viet Nam war against China???
Will Viet Nam win again ?
History repeat itself. (as chinese always believe this)
Dai Nam
If China fight viet nam now then their will be lost to Viet Nam at the end. Through out history Viet Nam has been defeated any country in the world. Viet Nam has been defeated Mongol, China, French and United State of America. History repeat itself. Action speak louder then word.
as00020840
Why do we asian always have to fight each other? We should live in peace and improve together to compete with the West for the honour of our race.
IsupportVN
Pssh! Do you people NOT understand that China has ALREADY took over one of Vietnam’s islands, but now their starting to invade again! Like seriously! Sooo GREEEDY! Can’t you just leave us alone?! We can be your best friend or your enemy.
TOGETHER
China is a growing power, with power there needs responsibilities! I believe China doesn’t know how to use its power effectively to benefit itself and it’s
nieghbours. To make it’s neighbours allies of China and help it’s weaker brothers to be as advanced as it is. Rather than let your neigbours seek help and adviced from others. I think China has never had this responsibilty before to this scale of a global power, therefore we need to understand it’s a child with a gun . China only knows the tactic of a regional power, the tactic to which i believe is no different to a street gang, saying to it’s nieghbours i’m more powerful than you ill take what i want. Behaving in this way makes China look immature and not up to it’s task as a super power and losing respect from it’s smaller nieghbours. We could talk about history and argue forever, but we need to keep in mind this is ASIA TIME! We have share poverty and colonial rule for so long, prosperity is at the door, the spotlight is on US. The question is why do we fight amongst ourselves???
Gordon
China will likely kill more people worldwide with their disease contagion rather their gun power. Making mucho mula from being the world’s manufacturer doesn’t equate to getting respect. Fake baby milk formula, fake Apple stores, sw/hw piracy, etc. have demonstrated the Chinese’ Essence. On the other hand VNese’s Essence is about Individuality and Creativity. VNese refugees are now living worldwide and assuming some are patriotic and innovative. For example, the bomb that Bush referred to as smoke them out of their hole was designed by a VNese woman. VN needs only few to commit to the cause and it’s game over for China. There are many ways to hurt a big and powerful guy but it’s not a good idea to go head-on. At no time in VN history, VN lacks of heroes and heroines. In contrast, the Rape of Nanking as one of many examples has proven China as weakling. Anyway, the joke is if you want to know if a Chinese Restaurant is good or not, check out the bathroom, the dirtier the bathroom, better the food.
Gordon
What should VN do ASAP? Cut all ties with China going forward include cultural & social, no more dragon dance, bad movies, bad fashion… Provide free ride to all students who study abroad especially in science to create the next generation of scientist who could smoke the Chinese out of their kitchen. Comply to international standards/policy to be a part of the international community. Kiss up to the US of A. Watch Sons of Guns and hire Will as consultant. Become US defense contractor. Lobby against China in the international community for being a Bully and it does not deserve to have the voting power it currently has. Fire or protest against the weakling politicians who pro China.
Mike Powell
The greatest enemy in this situation is not what appear in front of you, but what behind the veiled curtain. Because we might never know what the third party really wants if they decide to join the party.
Kaikai Souphanthavong
Vietnamese are just like the Phillipino they love to be a Caucasian people slave. They thinks that they are smarter than the rest of the southeast Asian neighbors but they not they just a slave of Caucasian. When France colonized Laos they also tried to Romanize or Latinize us, they forced us to abbandoned our written system and culture, but they never succeed, because Laotian are proud! of they culture and they have pride! more than the Vietnamese people and we will not abbandon our culture and written system.
Lao people never likes the Vietnamese, because they always tries to takes everything free from us, but the Chinese are not like that if they want something from others people they will trade or doing business with them. Taiwan, Xizhang and Xinzhang are indivisible part of China and China will not torrerate any foriegh force to divides that from us.
Nguoi Nuoc Ngoai
@KaiKai – Lao is on independent because the North Vietnamese help the Pathet Lao fight the Royal Laoists during your country’s civil war. Your current government and unified country is due to help from Vietnam. Ironically, your country’s true name is Lao. The French named it Laos. At least Vietnam is still Vietnam. And don’t forget what is modern day Lao, Cambodia, and Thailand used to be part of India thousands of years ago. You still use Sanskrit which is from India. You aren’t as culturally independent as you claim to be. You may not be using Latin characters but you are still using someone else’s characters.
eyedrd
China is a big country and has long history of great civilization, but it was colonized by the Mongols and the Manchus. China actually gained its independence in 1911 and has been thirsty of regaining its place in the world. The sad thing is that we are in 21st century where there are international laws in hope that the people’s rights of self-determination, and basic human rights are respected. It is not like in the 19th century when European countries practiced gun boat policy. Therefore, it is very hard for China to choose between becoming a civilized power of the 21st century or being a big bully as its size and economic power allows it to do so.
China invaded Paracel from VN in 1974 and has occupied ever since. It considers South China Sea/East Sea is its lake.
Da Truth
You AntiChina hating people need a SERIOUS history lesson. There are many things Vietnam claims against China, such as a singular genocidal past that needs to be addressed.
Yes China has invaded and GENETICALLY changed Vietnam. The original Vietnamese are FACTUALLY BLACK! Look at the equatorial line. They IN FACT are still alive today in Vietnam, The Philippines and New Guinea. The Vietnamese government IN FACT committed genocide and harsh apartheid tactics on the remaining INDIGENOUS BLACK VIETNAMESE! US troops documented these people on their military patrols. They are on the verge of extinction!
Why do Vietnamese look like Chinese today instead of black people related to the first Austronesian wave? It is because Chinese dominance both culturally and GENETICALLY has gone from a northern East Asian landscape as far south as the Philippines.
Vietnam is ALSO guilty of invading and committing not only cultural genocide, but also allowed the Khmer rouge atrocities to continue for months after they invaded Cambodia. CIA records confirm that rather than immediately stopping the Khmer Rouge atrocities, the Vietnamese forces gladly waited to reap the military rewards. They have also had an extermination and GENOCIDAL policy against various Chinese Hmong and Hui people who aided the CIA against the VietCong. So to say only China is SOLELY guilty would be completely incorrect! US Records confirm the genocide against its former allies in the Vietnamese interior as well as the invasion of Cambodia. Which Cambodians still remember to this day since Vietnam tried to implement its own imperialist ambitions when it tried to annex all of IndoChina.
Also, Vietnam only defeated the French and Americans because China gave them over 75% of their arms. Also China provided huge amounts of both logistical and technical support. The first thing China advised the VietCong on was to include women in their military actions. This Chinese suggestion DOUBLED their forces overnight.
Finally Vietnam also committed atrocities against ethnic Chinese at the end of the Vietnam War with America. These actions also can be categorized as cultural and human genocide against innocent Chinese civilians.
Vietnam also has invaded and occupied the MAJORITY of the contested areas in the South China Sea. It is inevitable that China WILL gain Hegemony and Suzerainty over the South China Sea, just as America gained political control of the Caribbean Sea.
China WILL NOT have to attack ANY ASEAN neighbors in order to enforce her sea lanes. She will only need to out-build her regional competitors. She will be able to build and deploy many more vessels and stations in the future. Every year her fleet and enforcement of the South China Sea will grow larger and larger. Even though the regional powers will try and compensate. They are doomed to failure against the logistical power of China just as they have for thousands of years!
China will be able to grow her navy and air force faster and with less economic limitations than any of her regional rivals in the South China Sea. It is not in her interest to attack any of the regional powers. However by sure mass and scale China can dominate the South China Sea without firing a shot.
Dat Truth
I spoke about HISTORICAL and GENETIC FACTS using mostly US sources. However this TYPICAL western site allows VIETNAMESE BS history and facts to be published and US FACTS are not IF they are in China’s favor. You OBVIOUSLY need a history lesson as well as a BIOLOGICAL ANTHROPOLOGY lesson. The FACTS are clear and CHINESE GENES have spread throughout the world as evidence of the Clovis people in North America confirm. I know you will delete this one too. Typical Anti-Chinese forum talking about being objective, but instead you just act in your favor.
I think more importantly we talk about a growing power needing responsibility. However NONE of the western imperialist powers have truly ACKNOWLEDGED their history of ETHNOCENTRISM and GENOCIDE!
In fact China should use the United States model and WORLD RECORD of Genocide against its indigenous inhabitants as a model. The US CLEARLY decimated over 90% of the Indians in California in less than 50 years. It is the fastest and most complete Genocide ever committed. If the US rose on the backs of Guns, Germs and Steel, why shouldn’t China? I will tell you why because morality suggests that the Western Powers and the US continue to bully the world both economically and militarily. Free trade is great until it hurts the west. Using Gun Boat diplomacy is BEST only when the West uses it.
China should also use the US model of expansion in the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico in order to safeguard her interests.
The US will of course block this action because in the modern world she considers her past record to be extremely cruel and imperialist. In the name of HUMAN RIGHTS or POLITICAL SUZERAINTY she will try and prevent China from copying her successful rise.
Besides China does not CONTROL enough Media like the US did to FAKE wars like the Spanish American War. Or institute Genocide like the US did in the Philippines, where on patrols no boy over age ten was spared as Howard Zinn cites in “A Peoples History of the United States”..
However she STILL lives off the BLOOD and land taken from her regional enemies. FACTS ARE FACTS. You can run, but you cannot hide and I am right here WAITING for all of you SO CALLED historians to play with. The FACTS are not going away.
The US has TOO MANY records and documented MANY VIETNAMESE atrocities both in the Vietnam war and Cambodian invasion. The Vietnamese practice of GENOCIDE against the ethnic Chinese Hmong and Hui groups are WELL DOCUMENTED by the CIA. As well as the Chinese Diaspora from Vietnam. That is why over 90% of all Vietnamese refugees in America are ETHNIC CHINESE! Source US census and Robert Takaki’s “Strangers From a Different Shore”.
However as African American historians such as Robert Bernal assert. Black history spans more time and geography than the west has ever given them credit for. The black VIETNAMESE, FILIPINOS & NEW GUINEANS are still ALIVE and in their NATIVE countries today! You cannot hide a whole people unless you focus on POLITICAL and MASS extermination of their populace.
Hurry up and delete this just like you do all UNPOPULAR posts. However make NO MISTAKE these FACTS are well known in the Asian American Studies circle!!! Your RIGHT WING propaganda is usually destroyed in TRUE and OBJECTIVE historical circles. We concentrate on FACTS and not FICTION!