Perhaps feeling a little buoyed by the latest Global Views survey showing an uptick in his approval rating, Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou has reportedly suggested that Taiwanese stop referring to China as ‘China’ and instead call it ‘the mainland.’
The word ‘China’ is preferred by the main opposition and independence-leaning Democratic Progressive Party, which started using the term when it was in power from 2000 until 2008. Ma, whose ruling Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) takes a more conciliatory approach to the People’s Republic, apparently made the suggestion at a tea party with top government and legislative officials on Monday.
Global Views found in its January opinion survey that public confidence in Ma had climbed 3.7 points on a month earlier, to 50.9. In contrast, confidence in DPP Chairwoman Tsai Ing-wen dipped 5 points, to 47.3, from December.
Still, although it’s unclear how many Taiwanese would now call for outright independence, there’s almost certainly a healthy majority who would either want independence or at least hope to keep the strange limbo status of not being independent, but acting independently.
Ma will need to be careful he doesn’t overplay his hand.
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John Chan
Mao allowed Taiwanese to elect their own governor, and maintain their own troop, as long as China handles Taiwan’s foreign policy and there is only one China. So the strange limbo status is not much better than Mao’s offer.
Taiwan should take the Canadian model to negotiate with China for unification. Every Canadian embassy has a Quebec office to promote Quebec’s interests. Taiwan should ask the privilege similar to Quebec’s in addition to the Mao’s offer for the terms of unification.
Han2U
I am a Chinese and I support Taiwan’s freedom. Why would they like to join China? We have to use proxies to surf internet and there is always danger of being caught by government while visiting even simple news sites. We can’t protest against police brutality if wrongdoer has any connection with CPC as police will hunt you down if you raise any sort of objection against them. Heck, even the judiciary is under political control. People like John Chan are either working for propaganda ministry or they don’t have a hint about the ground realities in China.
John Chan
@Han2U, maybe you are a proxy yourself because you dare to post anti-China comment on a site outside of China, it is an action that the people dare not do in China as you pointed out in your comment.
You falsely accused a reader without understanding a reader’s comments. Nobody denies the wrongdoings by the authorities in China, only you falsely accused people ignorant by “either working for propaganda ministry or they don’t have a hint about the ground realities in China.” You totally missed the point; the discussion here is what is the best way to reunite Taiwan without degrading Taiwan’s quality of life.
China is unable to democratize at a faster pace is because people like you who like to open mouth before understanding what other people try to say and will not tolerate people have different opinion from yours. To you democracy means you can do what you like. Let me tell you democracy is freedom with obligation and freedom with self-restrain.
Han2U
I pointed it out absolutely clearly that there is always a chance of getting caught by authorities for even visiting news sites and that every one is forced to use proxies to surf internet. But ofcourse, why would you read other people’s comment when you can show your ignorance by posting something that is already stated clearly.
Your wording eg “you dare to post anti-China comment” speaks volumes about you.
And you accused that “Its because of people like you that China is not Democratizing” so basically it is my fault that China isn’t Democratic! Amazing Deduction Sherlock! And to think I did this by only pointing out the abuse of power by Current One Party rule (beloved dictators) and how they twist the police and entire legal system against people. So basically, if we follow your line of thought, by taking a risk of my well being I posted a comment about how vast power abuses are going on here and by pointing those out I somehow stopped democracy in China, which if implemented would insure fairness and equality.
We are human beings too and we know whats good for us and our country. We are equal to Hu Jintao and if you consider yourself any less than him then its your problem.
John Chan
My initial comment was merely an idea on how to united Taiwan under a better way, yet you twisted the argument into a personal attack. There are many Chinese impostors using tactics similar to yours to smear China and readers defending China, from then on they carry out full fledge anti-China campaign.
Anyhow whatever your motive is, Taiwan is an integral part of China, it will be reunited with China sooner or later.
Han2U
I knew you wont answer any of the question raised and instead blame me and any chinese who raises voice against injustice and abuse. I knew it when you blamed me for ‘not democratizing of China’ (I laughed so hard and have taken a print out to show to my friends!) that you are here solely to bash all others including Chinese who want an accountable govt. I don’t know Mr.John Chan if you really are a resident Chinese or not because if you were you would have seen the truth in my statement but of course that requires an open mind as a zealot can’t see the truth. You can again post a comment bashing me, calling me impostor or pointing how dictatorship and lack of human rights and free media have helped us to become better but you would be deluding no one but yourself. Those tactics worked with old generation but we can’t be denied information and free opinion. A new age will come and tyranny will end. Power to the people…
Frank
Millions of Taiwanese are also Chinese. There are also some are Japanese who are left behind. Some are pacific islanders migrated to Taiwan. There are very small native people.
However, it does not matter what the name is used now. With a strong China, the proud Chinese Taiwanese will hold on to the power for a long time.
Johnny
The people of Taiwan have a right to decide their own fate. They are acknowledged as Free Country by several of UN/EU members and have their own embassies. Also, an important point to notice is that Taiwan is doing better than China in nearly every front. Taiwan is given a ‘Very High Human Development’ rank and is ranked #18 in the world while China is given a ‘Medium RAnk’ and is ranked #89. Same goes for GDP(PPP) by IMF where, again Taiwan is ranked way up at #21 with $34000 while China is at #91 with only $7000. So Taiwan has nothing to gain on development and economic fronts. Now lets evaluate the social front. Taiwan has an open and fair election system which is a huge advantage not to mention freedom of press in which Taiwan is ranked #32 while China is at at the rock bottom #163. Same goes for employment where Taiwan has an amazing less than 4% unemployed and better infant mortality rate, better life expectancy, better control on corruption and only less than 1% (0.95%) are below poverty line.
John Chan
Please spare me the figures, without China’s support; Taiwan’s economy would have collapsed long time ago. Chen Shui-bian’s fake assassination episode, and his wife’s and relatives’ money grab and the amount of corruption happened during his presidency made a mockery of open and fair election. Chen Shu-bian’s episode deters the pace China moves towards a more democratic system.
China does not want to repeat the social shock happened in the unification of East and West Germany, that’s why China is taking a rational and kinder approach to the unification of Taiwan and China.
qfxq
The people of Taiwan have a right to decide their own fate. Let me ask you a question, is it true that if people in New York should also decide their own fate to be independent? dont answer that New York is part of US because the logic is the same as Taiwan is part of China. What is called Taiwan is doing better than China nearly in every front? you know nothing man. you talk about GDP, why would only tell people GDP PER PERSON? the GDP of China is the second largest what taiwan?
Johnny
@John Chan So you don’t want to talk about facts and figures, perhaps I should too start baseless mudslinging without any proof or data to back any of my claim!
And of course China is being kind and gentle with Taiwan it has nothing to do with deployment of Seventh Fleet by USA which includes Carriers and Nuclear Submarines and neither it has any thing to do with economic embargo which world would impose on China!
@qfxq GDP (per capita) coupled with other critical life influencing factors, is what determines the standard of living. While the GDP as a whole has absolutely nothing to do with quality of life. China has the largest population in the world so its not a surprise that it has high aggregate GDP. Let me explain this to you in simple words :
Country A has 100 people and each person has $1000 to spend making a total of $1,00,000.
While Country B has 10,000 people with $20 each which when aggregated gives twice of country A i.e. $2,00,000 but will you say that country B’s people are living a better life than A’s? Absolutely not. Also, the Taiwan is ahead not only in income but in every field relating to human development.
Oh, and to the second question Taiwanese people have voted overwhelmingly for freedom (more than 80% !!!). If you think think New York shall have votes then go ahead. Everyone knows New Yorkers will overwhelmingly vote for America.
megakids
“Taiwan is doing better than China nearly in every front?”…..what utter rubbish! Obviously your view is so narrow. Taiwan can do what they do because they are “allowed” to, understand? You want your respect, earn it! The problem is for the past 10 years, TW has “unearn” too much and has been rotten to the core.
BlueSky
Ofcourse Taiwan is allowed to flourish because China want to. They are allowed to trade with other as long as China fancy and if they go astray the fire will rain from skies and purge them all.
Michael
The American’s will never allow Taiwan to go back to China, it’s too strategically important! If Taiwan does look like it will unite with China, expect an engineered false flag operation to change people’s minds.
Gerry
‘Taiwan should take the Canadian model to negotiate with China for unification’
Mr Chan, it’s very strange you should talk about a Canadian model. Are you aware of the referendum that took place in Quebec in 1995?
It would be wonderful if such a model could be followed for Taiwan.
Almost nobody in Taiwan wants to unify with China. Why should they enter into negotiations to do so?
megakids
Why do you make a claim that almost nobody wants to unify? Based on what facts can you make such a claim?
Negotiate, or being forced into, which one do your prefer? When push comes to shove, people will make the right choice. John’s proposal is viable for sure.
UltimateKids
Gerry is right and he has raised a valid point. If you do even a cursory search you will find that overwhelming majority of Taiwanese support freedom. Though many (all?) of them may not be available to you if you are a Chinese as almost anything that doesn’t suit the chinese ‘govt’ is blocked. Here is a survey from Global Views which shows that only 8.3% people want unification while an overwhelming majority of 91.7% wants status quo or freedom. See for yourself. http://www.gvm.com.tw/gvsrc/200910_GVSRC_others_E.pdf
megakids
8.3% of 23M is close to 2M population who want unification. You called that “Almost nobody”?? And people like “status quo” is a natural response because human being generally does not like “changes”. Change can only be sustained if 1. Change is for the better (like now with ECFA. Ask how many would like the previous status quo and get ECFA denounced?), and 2. Change is irreversible, such as the dependence of mainland for trade and survival.
You are looking at a dynamic, not a static transformation. Don’t fool yourself into some unrealistic ideals!
John Chan
@UltimateKids, Gerry is confused, one minute he said the Canadian model was good for Taiwan, and next minute he said no negotiation. HK was scared too before going back to China, now HK loves being part of China. There are always hideous people who would do anything for their own interests; national integrity, pride and heritage never mean a thing to them, Taiwan separatists are that kind of people, Taiwan has TV stations make their living by bashing China. There are a lot of Japanese-wannabe people in Taiwan; the report you quoted is an easy job for them. Anyhow Taiwan is an integral part of China, it will be reunited by China soon or later.
UltimateKids
@Chan John: Gerry isn’t confused his comment is perfectly fine, the problem is that you didn’t take the trouble of reading it properly before replying. He is not advocating the Canadian model at all he merely quoted your remark and then posted his point of view. Just read the First line.
You cannot assume the HK case in every scenario. What happened (and is happening) in Tibet is common knowledge.
We can’t blame Taiwan for what their TV channels show as they are free from govt. control.
You shouldn’t describe Taiwanese seeking freedom as ‘Hideous’. To you they may seem to be separatists but for Taiwanese they are Freedom Fighters. It depends entirely on the point of view.
And finally, who is part of whom is a matter of debate. For many countries they are a separate nation while for China they are a part of their territory. Why shouldn’t the people who are most affected by this be allowed to decide themselves? Its their life and their children’s future which is at stake so why not let them decide?
John Chan
The whole argument is whether it is China first, or letting hideous elements to break up China in the name of ‘democracy’. There are two separate issues, one is sovergnty and the other is individual right.
“Its their life and their children’s future which is at stake so why not let them decide?” that was precisely the moral high ground used by the hideous elements which want to break up China. Once China is broken up, the imperial powers have succeed in putting China back to the era of unequal treaties; wars, poverty, misery, and humiliation will fall upon Chinese just like the days starting from Opium wars. It took millions of lives and 150 year for China to get out that hell. Chinese have not intention to repeat that part of history at any cost.
You are mixing sovergnty with individual right. The issue here is how to maintain China’s sovergnty while protect individual right at the same time.
UltimateKids
@Chan John Again you are resorting to name calling for people of Taiwan! How would you feel if newspapers start posting stories calling Chinese ‘Hideous’ for claiming Taiwan as their territory? You wont like that would you? Taiwan is not Chinese territory. If it was then why there are hundreds of Chinese missile pointed to it?
And I really enjoyed your remark that how China will be separated and thrown back 150 years etc etc which is hard to believe since Taiwan is already free or at least not part of China.
Again, same one sided point of view pushing by you. Dude, which part of word ‘disputed territory’ you can’t understand? Ofcourse go on and keep posting same pointless comments if you want to. It gives people a good laugh watching what propaganda education produces.
alex
Taiwan belong to China and nobody denied that off course except USA.
America would not give a damn if it was not a source of weapon sales to Taiwan.
So same its for Tibet.
Peace is not interest or resources of American war machinery. Problems, interfering another nation business and war’s is the resources to sale of weapons.
And typical American man says “Thank God I am an American”
We must learn from this great nation and start creating problems.
PeterOneill
Do Chinese people in PRC have access to this site??? Wow so much propaganda…too easy for communist payroll bloggers to hop on with a Christian name IDs and extol the virtues of the Communist regime…damn…mindblowing stuff…
Do Chinese in PRC really think that they are too ignorant to function as a free and virtuous democracy? Really China should stop relying on state controlled direction of infrastructure spending and investments and let the Chinese people go free! All over the world the Chinese are famous for being savvy business people. The people that are so proud to have invented so much and contributed so much to human civilisation be it technology such as the compass or paper or culture such as Confucianism, Taoism and them fine literature such as Sun Tzu and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, are restricted by their own leaders not elected but handed down by generations to ensure the chosen few live in luxury.
What difference is the between the PRC Communists and the DPRK Communists. You thank and worship them for the economic growth of China? That wasn’t due to them, all they did is give you the slightest economic freedom to feed for yourself and see how well you have done. The PRC Communists just knew that you can’t control a nation the size of China like DPRK. So easy to do what the DPRK does with 1 million soliders controlling a population of 25 million. Even if China had 10 million soldiers you can’t control the billion people.
Without or with the PRC, Chinese know they are Chinese, Taiwanese Chinese arn’t obejecting to becoming Chinese, heck they extol they the TRUE Chinese, they just don’t want to live under that oppressive regime they fought and escaped from. They achieved de facto independence 60 years ago. Why the hell would they give it up. As much as North Korea won’t give up their Nuclear Weapons for no amount of money (economic gains) Taiwan won’t give up their hard earned blood sweat and teared freedom and democracy.
China’s economic growth isn’t due to the technocratic genius of the politburo. They opened up oh so little to give you Chinese a poor mans GDP per capita from the starving to death Africa GDP per capita. Those figures they tell you the No.1 Exporter, 10% GDP growth, well Germany exports as much as you without millions destined to live as sweat shop migrant workers, the GDP growth? Don’t quote me on this but 50& at least is from investment in infrastructure or real stuff like factories and at least a quarter of the investment is into real estate leading to the famed ghost CITIES of China. The billions they TAX + earn from the PROFITS OF STATE OWNED COMPANIES THAT CONTROL ALL THE CASH COWS funds them instead of social welfare and education.
Go away Communists…I would never say this aloud infront of my Chinese friends, but Chinese are alright, they are hard working diligent smart people. History shows that.
What makes you think Chinese are lesser than others in a way that they can’t even vote in their own leaders?
All the geopolitcial fuss that China is generating. I truly believe that a free and democratic China is the solution.
BTW I’m Not Chinese, but a free citizen of Australia studying Int. Relations at Uni.
Free Citizen Too
@PeterOneil. Just exactly how do you identify the pundits who are employed by the propaganda office? Is it by just looking at whether the comment is pro-China (on the Taiwan issue)?
Have you ever considered that there are citizens of China who are genuinely supportive of their government (while at the same time not agreeing completely with all government policies)? Just because their media is not free (by western standards) does it mean they are all brainwashed?
Let me offer a corollary: The Aborigines have been mistreated by successive Australian governments (just last year one UN envoy even accused the treatment as rascist). So if you support the current government does it mean you agree to the mistreatment of the Aborigines? If that is logical then what does it say about 50% of Australian voters?
It appears with all the freedoms you get in Australia your opinions of others still boil down to namecalling and stereotypes. What do they teach you at university anyway?
John Chan
@PeterOneill, your ignorance is beyond believe. The editor knows that the readers defend China are not from Propaganda Department of China. Readers defending China are here to correct the lies told about China, clear the smear painted on China, tell the truth over the distorted fact about China, and above all to educate and communicate with the world about China as a culture, civilization and nations, as well as about its people.
Australia is nation living in the colonial era, that’s why people like Kevin Rudd, and Ross Babbage were inciting military confrontation with China. Ross Baddage is calling Australia to armed itself with 25 nuclear attack submarine, stealth ocean going ballistic missiles launching platform, more US bases in Australia, etc. to take on China.
People study International Relationship should not have a cold war mindset, they should be open minded, try to understand the differences between people, then formulate solutions that can accommodate the differences and promote peace and prosperity for the mankind. Yet you are so prejudice, it is totally contradictory to the international relationship study all about. Please do us a favour, go to study mining; at least you can help Australia export more minerals to China, instead of doing harm to the world peace.
UltimateKids
@Chan John You said “Australia is nation living in the colonial era, that’s why people like Kevin Rudd, and Ross Babbage were inciting military confrontation with China.”
So Australia is in colonial era? Quick call the scientists a whole country has traveled back in time!
On a serious note: China is reaping what it has sown. When you read the news like ‘Chinese premier warned of serious consequences if they don’t change their stance on .’ you forget that every action has an equal an opposite reaction.
So while the Chinese bloggers and nationalists are jumping by brave words of their masters the country who was threatened, in this case Australia, decides to expand its military and starts viewing China as a threat.
Then Mr John Chan said-
“People study International Relationship should not have a cold war mindset, they should be open minded, try to understand the differences between people, then formulate solutions that can accommodate the differences and promote peace and prosperity for the mankind. ”
You are the one who said that Taiwanese are Hideous as they wanted freedom. And then you showed your cold war mentality by saying that China will be destroyed,looted,thrown back 150 years and conspiracy theory about breaking up. So please, stop bashing anyone who isn’t Chinese. Australia did what any self respecting nation would have done when bullied.
John
John Chan wrote:”Australia is nation living in the colonial era, that’s why people like Kevin Rudd, and Ross Babbage were inciting military confrontation with China. Ross Baddage is calling Australia to armed itself with 25 nuclear attack submarine, stealth ocean going ballistic missiles launching platform, more US bases in Australia, etc. to take on China.”
There is an old saying in Australia, “Those in Glass houses should not throw stones”, If Australia is inciting military confrontation with China by increasing its military then what is China doing?
China started increasing its military before Australia did and while Australians defence forces are designed mainly for defence, e.g. defensive submarines. China has started producing Aircraft carriers and attack aircraft that are mainly used for attack, so what does that say about Chinas future desires.
Plus, if you have looked at a map and claims over surrounding territory, you will note that late 20th/ early 21st Century, China has made claims and taken territory in South East Asia and North East Asia while Australia hasn’t.
Also the Chinese military has started building satelite bases and building military relationships in the Pacific. Now if Asia is in the area of China and China doesn’t want external actors in thier region, then the Pacific is in the area of Australia and they dont want extrenal actors making claims in thier area either.
Or is China going to suggest that some Chinese fisherman got lost in the last 5000 yrs and that allows them to make claims here too?
LoopN’Louie
Chinese do employ propaganda spreading bloggers on payroll and I am not saying this because of some sort of prejudice but out of my own experience on various sites. In sites like youtube ,which is blocked in China, has thousands of users posting stupid propaganda stuff over and over again using fake accounts. Their comments are ‘Thumbed up’ by them immediately after posting eg user WhitePeopleEatShit posted a comment at 8:30 and when you refresh page at 8:31 it has 87 thumbs up. Then another user ChinaPower posts comment and again it has within a minute 85 thumbs up and this is not isolated event either. Any video which is related to China is abused by them by exploiting posting system. So everytime someone starts blowing same old one sided trumpet of ‘Dictatorship is good for China’ again everyone simply assumes that its a Propaganda guy and pays no heed to him.
Joe
Just want to explain a simple and plain fact: anybody who knows English can access this site within China freely. Anyone who can test this fact by just trying if he has chance to visit here.
Do not understand why there are so many so-called “educated” western people always talk something about “China employed blogger” lies.
Who was brain washed? People need to ask………..
PeterOneill
I loled at the Australia related replies very informed viewership aye lol. What if I lied about being Australian?? What if I was Japanese? What if I was Korean? Just letting it out there just to hear the opinion of Chinese bloggers on these neighbouring countries that are democratic. Round 2! Go!
And in reply to the cold war mindset, the world is inevitably becoming a realist cold war scenario, and out of all the foreign policies in the world China is the most realist with a foreign policy utterly tied to their rason detat and real politique. You can’t expect us foreigners to treat China with liberal hippy open we are the world love when China treats the world as “us against them” with no care for liberal agendas such as human rights and supporting rogue regimes for economic gains. Also at least Australia doesn’t weaponise our mineral exports for petty feuds to rifle up nationalist sentiment to cover up for poor domestic policies. So easy for men in power to redirect the finger pointed at them towards the foreign enemy.
Joe
Who care which country you comes from? But please do not pretend you know things related with China，since you folks realy do not……
Nakor
Just throwing my two bits in here: First bit, not being born in a country does not automatically disqualify you from understanding that country’s affairs. Nor does critically evaluating a country’s “official” line on a topic.
Second bit, perhaps some of the perceptions that regular commenters on here are on the Chinese government payroll (John Chan I am looking at you) comes from the language employed – the readiness to decry anyone who disagrees with their point of view as not understanding China or wanting to split China up, both denigrations regularly employed by the Party when responding to critics, suggests that they are regular consumers of Party-influenced media. Thus, there is some logic in the assumption that they are also part of that media machine.
John Chan and friends – if you wish to communicate your message in a less-partisan manner (and thus win support from the many fence-sitters who are suspicious of your motives), then please tone down the rhetoric. It will make your posts much more palatable and useful in the discussion.