In a year in which the region’s news was frequently dominated by questions over whether China had abandoned the path of a ‘peaceful’ rise, it was perhaps inevitable that 2010 would be rounded out with a few bits of news that underscore China’s growing military prowess.
I’ve written before about the common misconception when comparing Chinese and US military power that China somehow needs to go toe-to-toe with the United States to be considered a regional threat. It doesn’t – the risk of a bloody enough nose over, for example, the Taiwan Strait, would be enough to make US forces at least wary about whether and how to intervene in a conflict. (And as I blogged about earlier this year, they might have only a few days to come to Taiwan’s rescue in the event of a Chinese invasion of the island, at least according to one simulation).
So how would China be able to deny US ships access to the Taiwan Strait area? One way is the use of Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles, a system discussed by Diplomat correspondents Toshi Yoshihara and James Holmes. As they note, missiles, ‘being relatively cheap and easy to mass produce, offer an excellent chance of evening the odds…A long-range cruise missile costs as little as $500,000 – a pittance for China – while a single US cruiser is worth around $1 billion. To put it another way, one US aircraft carrier would literally buy 10,000 missiles.’
And, according to China analysts Andrew Erickson and Gabe Collins, China is further advanced along this path than many had expected. Erickson emailed me a copy of a new report he has just published that states:
‘Beijing has successfully developed, tested, and deployed the world’s first weapons system capable of targeting a moving carrier strike group (CSG) from long-range, land-based mobile launchers. The Second Artillery, China’s strategic missile force, already has a capability to attempt to use the DF-21D against US CSGs in the event of conflict, and therefore likely expects to achieve a growing degree of deterrence with it.’
The report also notes the significant potential in terms of firing distance of the mainland-based missiles, which bring targets well past the first island chain and Taiwan – including the US Navy base in Guam – within range.
There is a caveat to this. The report quotes Admiral Robert Willard, Commander of US Pacific Command, as stating that China likely sees its missiles as having the equivalent of initial operational capability (IOC). What does this mean? In effect it means that although China likely has the capacity to deploy the system, it will require a degree of fine-tuning through testing, meaning it’s not clear how the system might actually perform under combat conditions.
Still, as the report notes, although it’s hard to exactly equate definitions of operational capability between different countries’ services, this approximated status is still a significant advance on ‘Initial Threat Availability’, which is typically when a system has been tested successfully, but hasn’t been deployed.
Providing a few more specifics on what all this could mean in terms of when and by whom the missiles could be operated by, Mark Stokes, executive director of the Project 2049 Institute, emailed me with his take on some of this:
‘One could quibble about how close an ASBM is to IOC. The key question to ask is whether or not Second Artillery and General Armaments Department (GAD) authorities have officially certified the space and missile industry's design (literally, ‘set the design’ or dingxing for short). My impression is that the goal was to do so before the end of the year. Afterwards, the missile would still need to continue with testing, both for purposes of ensuring a small initial batch is OK, and then for Second Artillery unit operational test and evaluation.
‘There's still some question regarding which brigade has been designated to be the first unit equipped. Two new Second Artillery units in Guangdong are possible candidates (52 Base's 96166 Unit and 53 Base's 96219 Unit). Over the last three or four years, a dozen or so officers from the initial ASBM brigade -- whichever one it is -- likely have been preparing tactics, techniques, and procedures, developing simulation systems, and working closely with industry to ensure stable follow-on logistics support, and surveying launch sites, and so on. Second Artillery engineering units probably have been doing lots of tunnelling work in preparation for initial deployments as well.’
Interestingly, Erickson’s report also quotes Willard as commenting on whether the ASBM is a greater threat in terms of access denial than submarines (Willard says not). This brings me to another development reported on this past week, namely that China may be in a position to launch its first aircraft carrier next year – a year before many analysts had expected.
As Reuters notes: ‘(The) launch of the ex-Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag, for training and trying out technology, will be a step toward building and operating aircraft carrier group.’
I asked James Holmes for his take on the significance of the reported ‘launch’, and he first took issue with the report’s use of that word. ‘It’s a squishy term’, he told me. ‘The ship is in the water and thus was ‘launched’ long ago. So I would assume they mean they plan to start sea trials next year…As the article notes, this won't make the ship fully operational, if indeed they intend to use it as more than a training platform’.
So how much of a surprise was this? An ‘expected’ surprise, perhaps. ‘The Chinese have a pattern of springing things on us, so the timing comes as little surprise to me,’ Holmes said, noting also that as the ship's air wing isn't particularly large, it will by no means signal a Chinese rise to parity with US carriers.
Still, Holmes also added that if Willard’s suggestion that the ASBM has reached initial operating capability is true, and the Second Artillery can provide fire support from the land hundreds of miles offshore, the PLA Navy ‘may not need carriers comparable to ours, ever’.
US Navy Commander James Kraska of the Center for Naval Warfare Studies told me that that China’s aircraft carrier plans are perhaps better understood as symbolic rather than militarily practical advances.
‘The aircraft carrier is unimportant militarily for the time being at least; it is important as a symbol of China's economic, technological and military ascendancy,’ he told me when I asked him about the report.
‘China has mastered and implements a comprehensive approach to nurturing and managing the image of its power - the carrier is a trophy or exhibit that helps to round out Beijing's image, especially in Asia, which is a maritime theatre… (and helps) show countries that China can come between US Naval power and American allies. The Seventh Fleet, long dominant in the region, now has to contend with a serious rival.’
Kraska adds, however, that China may have come to the carrier ‘party’ a little late, and compares the aircraft carrier with the battleship, which itself yielded to the carrier as the most powerful capital warship.
So what replaces the carrier? ‘Most likely, fast attack submarines,’ Kraska says. And here, he says, there’s little comfort for the US and allies. ‘China is mastering Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology that’s reportedly quieter than US Los Angeles-class fast attack submarines’, he told me. ‘And China is building them at a faster rate than the United States, widening the gap in numbers each year’.
Throw in the speculation this week that China might also be developing its own stealth fighter, and it’s clear there’s plenty for the US and its allies to mull over in the coming year.








Mike
If we want to make sure China’s military is always second class comparing to ours, isn’t that easier just to sell them the weaponry so that they don’t have incentive to develop their own? When someone is compelled to think hard and work hard to make something of their own, there is a chance that they will come up with something that is better than ours or at least different from ours. Not selling China weapons is the biggest mistake in containing its military as it stimulates China’s own arms industry.
Voz
I am pro-China but I’m actually agreed with you. The weapon trade embargo in the past decades has made China an independent self-innovative advanced weapon producer by itself today, it would be less independent if US kept selling weapons to it, perhaps still clinging on US’ technology until today. So, the American kind of nurtured China to ’stand on its own’ in its arm/ammo industry, well, hard to say it’s good or bad. At least it complies with an American philosophy – The Balance of Powers is reaching.
Reason
@Jason, I think you guys need to go and read your history about the naval treaties between Japan and the U.S starting in the early twentieth century up to WW2, to realize that what China is doing is nothing new, and the U.S navy has been in the business of ‘dealing with threats’ in Asia for over a century.
The Japanese instigated a build-up of submarines in the 1920s to counter the U.S fleet and were the most prolific submarine builders on the planet…. but after 20years of preparation, when war finally broke out in 1941, the J-subs didn’t sink a single battleship throughout the war and were a complete failure, compared to the U.S subs that wrought havoc on the J-fleet and its sea lanes.
In the last 100 years, the U.S Navy has had to deal with Japan, then Russia and now a Chinese navy.
As I said… business as usual for the U.S Navy
megakids
Wow! One century! That’s 100 years! Almost 1/3 of your country’s “L….ong” history! Go back and check your history book. Whose business as usual first, and then comment!
USABRO
Megakids,
Which office of The Propaganda Department do you work for?
Slope_head
wow!
china getting in the lime light. a country well known for its stealing (technology) nature, can not develop much on its own. however, it has mastered in manufacturing of dollar store rubbish.
what china never reveals is its failure rate.
here is another example of china’s 4.5th gen fighter air craft jointly developed with pakistan. the JF-17.
pakistan doesn’t want those planes as they are. it’s radar/avionix, brainchild of china is no good for pakistanis.
pakistan was desperate to replace it’s radar/avionix with french technology, but lost it out because of US/India pressure on France not to sell to this rogue nation pakistan.
That tells about the advanceness of the wonder boy ‘china’
chang’e 1 never made to the moon. that was china’s first satellite destined to moon but missed the moon orbit.
chang’e 2, was launched in Oct 2010, so far some chinese (not the gov) guy has posted ‘only one video’ again that looks identical to video recorded by japanese satellite Kaguya.
megakids
Only country as silly as the US would ask another military power to be “transparent”…which edition of Sun Tze these soldiers read, I wonder?
Talk about stealing, your country’s great “discovery” after WW2 on rocket technology and biological/chemical warfare must have been rightfully acquired by paying a large sum to the German and Japanese. I am sure. You are American. You are the guardian of justice of the world.
Yawar Kazmi
He is indian.
Ken Hortin
If you think that the Chinese military should remain secondary to that of the Yew Ess of Ayes you are in cloud cuckoo land. They are on the ascendant whilst America is a fading empire living on memories. And severely broke. The only way you could take on the Chinese is for the Chinese to lend you the cash to do so. They remember the Opium wars and other nice little Imperialist tricks forced upon them by america and England. Their time cometh.
ASEAN
Another armchair general who doesn’t understand international politics, much less financing. If you would bother checking, China owns roughly 800 billions in U.S. Treasury notes, which is slightly more than Japan, and in the over all picture, equates to about 6.5% of total U.S. debts. The U.S. economy is still bigger than both China and Japan combined, plus the nest top 5 countries. So, don’t be too cocky as if China will rule the world. It is far from it.
James B
US Federal Reserve could buy them back easily! China should be worried that some day, the US won’t sell TBond to China any more, and start restricting import of Cninese goods ! Then…!!! As long as the greenback can still buy oil&gas then nothing could help China in a trade war with the US ! Customer is always right (not the producer)! Remember that!
DANA WYANDT
America has been on top forever, because (as the saying goes)WE ARE THE WORLD.. WE are not americans, WE are from all over this world to make our country great.. and WE ALWAYS COME BACK..the russians where going to rule the world.. made in japan.. made in taiwan.. made in here or there.. China is like all the other WOULD BE powers to take over the economic world.. As soon as there middle class figures out (which they finally have) that work for crap pay is stupid, they all fall to the side and we just keep going..China has kept there currancy down 40% but that crap is coming to an end also.. Think about how they could compete with 40% higher cost on all there goods..ALL THERE BANKS ARE INSOLVENT.. yea thats not a type o.. And each year there wages ( as i said) have gone up 20 to 30% per year.. see yea Chinese cheap goods. Soon they too will fall, and india will be rising the fastest.. then north africa.. then.. then.. But through it all AMERICA will stay on top.. THATS HOW WE ROLL..
urabus
to slope head you are not commenting on China. You have this attacking mode
on China just to show you have this insecure feeling due to inability to confront
reality of the world. You feel so inferior and need to treat other as contempt. So much so as you have to tell story. China had invented the most major pillars that the modern economy now based on – compass, printing, gun powder, paper money and coins, banking and finance. And China was the first to draw the world map! Right now, US and Japan simply have no show with China in military term and money term. China has the most formidable manpower and is changing and improving everyday. Full stop. And always remember that China is China and it is no Japan or Russia or European country. Read the history back to 5 thousand years. China does not want to scare anybody but you want to scare yourself by any mean.
John Chan
As the first three anti-China commenters (Mike, Reason and Slop_head) out of gate trashed China’s technology so badly, I wondered Jason Miks might have over exaggerated the capability of China’s technology. Jason caused a lot of commotion among the US, the EU and their lackey states unnecessarily, it is no good to the peace and prosperity of the world.
Since the West believed only the West can invent and succeed, and there are arms embargos against China by the West and its lackey states, why the West and its lackeys should make such a big fuss because China is building some more toys for its soldiers. The West and its lackeys should take it easy, there is no point get themselves all work up, it is no good for the blood pressure. The West and its lackey states should take a hedonic approach to China’s arms build-ups. The West and its lackeys should borrow more money from China and spend it on cars, vocation homes, sightseeing, luxury goods, etc. to enjoy, it is way better building arms to guard against the phantom threat of China.
As one US naval officer bragged in NATO HQ “finishing off China’s navy is an interesting morning exercise.” Maybe 10 years later, finishing off China’s navy is just a repeat exercise of Midway. As Reason said, no big deal, it is business as usual for the US Navy.
megakids
Look John, it’s Christmas, time for the bad boy to throw a tantrum, and he hoped the parents would buy him more toys from Santa….Oops! Sorry, Santa happens to be Chinese….What a bad move!
M
The Japanese got stomped at Midway. It was such a bad defeat, it turned the tide of the war. If China’s military is anything like the cheap commodities they ship over here, they’re navy will fall apart faster than the last pair of shoes I bought, maybe even faster than their high speed rail. American manufacturers pride themselves on quality goods while Chinese goods are all about being cheap (even at the expense of quality). It’s a big chink in their armor. That being said, aside from the warmongers, in my opinion, most Americans don’t want conflict with China. We’d rather live in harmony with the rest of the world, despite how our pseudo democratic/fascist government makes us look. Sadly, the sane people here don’t have voice any more.
Reason
@urabus
Unfortunately, China’s is not led by the ’sage-kings’ of old. If the CCP leaders want to step aside and let men of real talent lead the country then you may have a chance of achieving the greatness you truly desire and even deserve.
But the CCP infrastructure is not set up to cultivate talent and China’s future leaders and generals of little-talent will blunder into a conflict with the West that they can’t win, just like Germany and just like Japan – forget reading “China’s 5000year history”… read the history of the Pacific War, The Japanese Navy was altogether more formidable than China’s navy will ever be. Japan wrongly guessed that the U.S, after being devastated by the GREAT DEPRESSION of the 30s did not have much will for a protracted fight – How wrong they were!
The West doesn’t have a problem with an ascending China, but it does have a problem with authoritarian governments that throw their weight around, and has no problem in taking them out if they become to troublesome.
The Chinese Navy will sink before it even gets close to combat with the U.S Navy and the “Carrier Killer” missile wont even get close…. just like the Japanese Navy’s Yamato Battleships in WW2.. big white elephants, they were the pride of the nation that ended being in a “chicken shoot” for U.S war planes
In a real war situation, the Chinese public will go, “where are our carrier killer missiles?” and the reality will be you just don’t have the C4SI to deliver them, or the systems will be so degraded by strikes that what ‘might’ have worked doesn’t!
If China wants to play ZERO-SUM strategies in the seas with the U.S, then it has to be prepared for the consequences. Both Germany and Japan thought it was “their time.” and their substantial militaries were dismantled and told to go and do what they do best – make stuff….. China is now on a similar track.
Slope_head
at the end of the day, it will be the victory of democracy, the freedom and Communist China will meet the similar fate as did the soviets.
a democratic China will be no threat to anyone, but Communist China is.
Guest
>a democratic China will be no threat to anyone, but Communist China is.
This is manifestly untrue. China will ALWAYS be a threat. Look back at history. Even when China was on her knees half colonised with signs like “No Dogs and Chinamen” hung over her own soil, even then there was a market for the Yellow Peril.
If anything, a democratic China would be vastly more dangerous because they could remove corrupt incompetent leader more efficiently and because the ordinary Chinese are much more nationalistic than the CCP.
Read this article: The Communist Party of China as a heat shield (from AvWeek)
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:7fb26425-bc6a-4daa-8531-cd5be6709a7d
John Chan
@Reasons, your comments are full of gun smoke and hot air. Your cold war redneck bigotry ranting is loaded with fallacy. Your brag based on one serious flawed concept, i.e. you extrapolated past success as future guaranteed feat. You have placed the fate of your nation and the wellbeing of your country fellows in the hands of almighty god, which no one knows for sure.
First of all, on one is at war with the US, only the US is constantly at war with everybody else.
1. The US only won wars with overwhelming advantage in resources over the enemy. When they faced a near parity enemy they surrendered or ran, such as in Philippines in WWII, Korean war, and Vietnam war.
2. In WWII the Allies defeated the Axis on the basis of production capacity not by military excellence. Now the US no longer has that advantage, China has plenty of internal resources and production capacity to match the US.
3. The US sank Yamato with aeroplanes on the advantages of range and speed, yet you totally denied the same advantages processed by the China’s ASBM over the US carriers. Other than racist remarks, I could not think of anything else to describe your illogical statements.
4. The ASBM attack speed is Mach 10. Are you sure launching war planes for the “chicken shoot” would work? War is no “Independence Day”.
5. The anti draft demos during the Vietnam war has already discredited the willingness of the US youths to put their lives on line for the nation, particular a war with dubious causes. Nowadays the upper class of the US is corrupted, they are only interested in lining their own pockets at the expenses of the nation. The middle class is obsessed with rich-wannabe fabs by buried themselves deep in the debts. The US military is manned by bottom echelon of the US society for pay cheques. On top of that the US is populated by heavily over weighted people. The Federal Reserve is flooding the markets with Fiat money, all these more or less resemble the dying days of Roman Empire.
6. Only China has proved it can intercept incoming ballistic missiles way up there, maybe China is confident to stop all ballistic missiles from the US, so only a handful of nuclear bombs is enough to deter the US ever thinking of using nuclear blackmail. Anyhow only madman will contemplate Armageddon for the humanity, are you one of them?
7. The real enemy to the survival of the US is Federal Reserve and the Wall Street, not China.
8. Arms confrontation is the most undesirable option to win a war, only the trigger happy cowboys thinks of killing and nothing else to resolve issues.
9. Stop your mindless armchair cowboy ranting, it will do the world a lot of good in terms of peace.
Reason
@ Ken …
China has a lot more to lose financially in a war situation than the U.S…
How do you think the CCP is gonna explain that all the money Chinese people think they have in the banks have been leant to the U.S to fund two wars….???
In a war situation the U.S would just default on the 500+billion … problem solved, no more paying money back to an enemy. Time to refinance, the books suddenly look a whole lot better! In WW2, the U.S lent China billions of dollars…. yah, like that got paid back by the CCP!! The Communist just went, “fack off America, we aint paying you, you’re our enemy!”
However, in China there will be massive runs on the banks when people try to get out their money, but it aint there, because it was lent to the Americans and then you will have total social chaos. Of course the CCP could hand out the U.S bonds and treasuries to its citizens and tell people to collect them personally.
First rule of lending, don’t lend your money to someone who is bigger and tougher than you. What’s China gonna do, stop selling stuff to America in protest?
The biggest producer stops selling to the biggest consumer… who’s gonna lose out there?
Threaten Nuclear War…?? China’s 200-400 nuclear bombs (with only about 20-30 that ‘could hit continental U.S) against the U.Ss’ 5013, that could all hit Hu Jintao’s sock draw. Who’s gonna lose out there?
Or maybe they could mobilize their 2million strong army, arh, but they can only airlift about 20,000 of them at most…
Seems like the 1.2billion Chinese jumping off a box is their best line of offense against the U.S as an enemy.
As I said in my previous post… the West is up for a growing China, but if it starts throwing its weight around too much then its gonna run into big trouble. There is no “pay back” for the Opium wars or the Nanjing Massacre, this is just Nationalist Ignorance!
As long as China remains an authoritarian country then it will remain weak… this is the problem, not the history and not the U.S
Sanjay Taher
An interesting read: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/24/AR2010122402788.html
typhoonq
@ Reason …
What, if the Chinese will to make the first move and off load some of their US Dollars Reserve instead of T-Bonds. Overnight, the US dollar will become banana money and there will be a crash in your US Stock market and a Run on all your banks. The Oil producing countries will stop accepting payment in US dollars.
You will not get your oil to fight a war.
How do you know China only possessed 20-30 ICBM. Pure speculation & guess work !
You must be reading outdated US intelligence report via Taiwan Army Intelligence dated in 1996 when China launched 2 short range missiles over Taiwan air space. Do you know that, China ICBM each carries a 3 megaton warhead that can vaporise the whole LA.
It will be mutual destrcuction if War break out between China and US !
China will remain an authoritiarian state and have the support of most Chinese people.
Bond
Some wonderful fantasy in the new year! Go ahead and China will be the first collapsing immmediately!Q2=$600 bl, then next Q3= $900 or 1 trillion (???) until the greenback floods China and inflation soaring there!Yuan is then forced to appreciate!No more cheating, no more mercantilism! Better compete on a level playing field economically! Arrogance and self-interest are not helpful for China!
James
Fairy tales ignorance…..
We have already lost to the Chinese!
If they want to, China can sink our US economy and bury Wall Street and our way of life, just by dumping 200 billions of our treasury bonds.
Get real, all you dump heads, we are as poor as dirt!
We are switching off street lights, closing schools, closing libraries, sacking states and federal employees and our infrastructures are turning to rust buckets for lack of funds to maintain them.
The reality will hit hard as a rock when more and more nations stop accepting our green back and opt for other currencies in lieu of payment.
Most of you are in la, la land, still dreaming of greatness. As they say, when you are peniless and bankrupt,you can only dream on….
John Chan
@Bond, the first three lines of your comment made sense for a hardball political game, I thought there is somebody in the US not living in the cuckoo land like Reason. Then the last two sentences made you looked childish. The US is the biggest cheater, manipulator and rule violator in the world in all aspects of international politics. Even the Germans sided with China against the US monetary policy and behaviour in the last G20 meeting.
If you have done any research you will find out that It is the handle work of the Federal Reserve controlled by the international money changers, and the Wall Street that has being causing the Americans(US) losing wealth and jobs, it is not because of China.
As James Fallows said blaming somebody else is not going to help USA at all.
Bond
fyi
http://www.piie.com/publications/testimony/bergsten20100915.pdf
In three decades, China has manipulated its currency to gain advantage in international trade!It’s too much!!
(“….In addition, the Administration should initiate a new strategy of “countervailing currency intervention” (CCI) against Chinese purchases of dollars by making offsetting purchases of Chinese renminbi.1 China has been intervening at an average of about $1 billion per day over the past several years, by purchasing dollars with renminbi to keep the price of our currency up and the price of its currency down. This greatly enhances the price competitiveness of Chinese products in world trade. The United States should counter by buying corresponding amounts of renminbi with dollars, which we can of course create without limit. This is technically challenging, since the renminbi is not fully convertible, so our authorities will have to find and buy market proxies such as nondeliverable forward contracts for renminbi and renminbi-denominated bonds in Hong Kong.” Congressional Testimony
Correcting the Chinese Exchange Rate–C. Fred)
Don’t blame the US Fed for its QE policy!Who’s the real culprit for the current global imbalances? Fed QE is just a policy to boost the US economy! And strong US economy is the key to the global recovery!That’s the point!
John Chan
@Bond, didn’t you find the statement was odd? Since RMB is not convertible, how can China purchase USD with RMB on the open market to keep the USD up and RMB down? Besides many other countries peg their currencies on USD, even at fixed rate too. Japanese is the expert in buying USD with JYN to keep USD high and JYN low. It is a general practice of all nations. The US does it with bigger scale called QE. It is a process called racing to the bottom.
US has forced JYN up few hundred percent, but Japanese product sales to US increased instead of decreased.
QE = inflation = legally transfer your wealth to the rich without your approval and knowledge. Federal Reserve is not helping the US to solve job problem.
I am probably talking to someone without a clue about real economic and finance. The type of people the politicians really want, so they can shift the responsibility to someone else, instead of doing the real work to help the Americans(US) getting jobs.
Please listen what Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Jim Roger and National Inflation Association are saying.
Bond
Better read the above link again and you will understand more!
Don’t just be a propaganda tool of the regime!
John Chan
Better read what Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Jim Roger and National Inflation Association have said again and you will understand more!
Don’t just be a propaganda tool of the regime(the USA)!
typhoonq
@ Reason ….
You have many things to learn about the Chinese economy.
First, the Chinese do not use US dollar in China and they only trade in Yuan.
The Chinese bank account balance is quoted in Yuan. The Central Bank of China
keeps control of all Foreign currency Reserves.
Therefore, it does not affect the average Chinese if US default in pay back to China. Chinese also love to keep cash and stored them secretly in their homes.
This amounted to about $ 13 Trilion Yuan (app. US$ 2 Trillion)
The Chinese Govt is already stearing away their economy from over reliance on export. Over the last 5 years, with the increase of better income, more Chinese are spending. Chinese is now the World 2nd largest Consumer just after you guys.
Car Sales is just an example.
Before A.D 1820 China had the World largest economy for centuries and now they are bcak to reclaim their rightful place.
More and more US companies are now relying on the Chinese market. For example,General Motors, General Electric,Boeing, Caterpillar, Cummins Engine etc
China is now their biggest overseas customer.
So, it is no longer one way street for Trade. It is mutual dependance.
Grant
Submarines might be more dangerous than aircraft carriers in battle but they lack the ability to hold territory or contest the air. It might be intelligent to look at submarines for battle but we shouldn’t count out light surface craft and aircraft for deciding a battle just yet. Heck, we haven’t even started to scratch the surface of robotics.
szMe
China will not win US by war. There is too little chance.
The only way to decline US is too make the US excel in war. That does not meaning China win US either, just to decline US.
With fear monger US, it helps US to decline. Why?
More fear monger, more US expenditure on Military, which is bad investment, in fact, it is just throwing money into research and deploying military with zero return on investment.
Look at this. China dev ASBM, US dev anti asbm. Deploying anti asbm is much much more expensive because an asbm can strike any place. US have to deploy anti asbm in large scale over large area.
US people always think about asbm china as war over china. But wait! China can sell weapon, and also patent. The developed asbm may not be ignited by China at all!
Now imagine Iran and all countries bullied in the past by US bought this thing. How much money Uncle Sam must spend to protect this. By this time, no actual war has begun, but US dollar is already war torn.
Ok. this thing must have sofisticated targeting sensors eg. GPS in order to track the moving object, but wait, the US must track their own objects. This means if the Pentagon Real time information is hacked, a rogue country can use this information to feed the ASBM to attack. Also this targeting mechanism can be radar information, or other sensor based method, these information can utilize the Internet infrastructure to distribute. This means that country B can help country A by feeding this data using internet (Internet can be used not only to show the web page but any kind of information). It is very difficult to blame a source of this info to belong to a country B.
The algorithm to deliver the asbm right into a moving object can also be made public into a opensource project.
Using this method, American will have to prepare for any strike all around the globe. That will deteriorate the economic condition of US dollar.
Printed like crazy (QE2 for eg) dollar become a peace of paper.
All of these cannot make China a new super power. But it deteriorate the US in faster rate, while for china, it can sell this weapon for income.
Once the US dollar become paper, it deteriorate the R&D speed, military deployment capabilities.
If this method cannot weaken US dollar and if all above statement is just the air today, the new version of asbm will do for tomorrow and the sequence continue for 100 years.
For the reader of my comment. Buy gold and you will be in save heaven. For US, the country that educate me, shut down that printing press and the Fed, and you will continue to be super power for the rest of the time. You are the most responsible super power the world ever have. But like super power of all time in human history, you must eat other country’s land, people, to be super power. Printing press, from my point of view, is the god power that US should give it back to god. Otherwise, god will command your USD and your people to gradually decay.
John
maybe the Fed needs some more rounds of qe to’cure’this kind of ‘currency manipulation desease’!!!
John Chan
@John, the Fed has the privilege to use the tool QE which is a double edged sword as often as it sees fit, who will be the ultimate victim is hard to say, because nobody is standing idle for the hit. At the end, which nation’s ‘currency manipulation desease’ will be cured by QE will be interesting to see.
Lincoln was assassinated by the people behind the Fed.
Bond
May you spare some time to read this article in the link below, you will understand why both countries should choose the cooperative approach instead of the confrontational one?
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20101231a1.html
sorry for any words that are not nice in some hot arguments!Take care!
Bond
@John Chang
“@Bond, didn’t you find the statement was odd? Since RMB is not CONVERTIBLE, how can China PURCHASE USD with RMB on the open market to keep the USD up and RMB down?…”!!!!!!
May I have a word with you? Perhaps, you don’t understand English so you did not understand what that quote meant?! By the way,reread the definiton of QE before giving your own opinion! You just talk like a parrot, the kind of ‘one-way conversation’ in your country!In an open society, people always discuss two sides of an issue: the pros & cons, not just the negative (or positive) only as in the undemocratic society!Sorry to say that!
John Chan
@Bond, people like you who have no idea what is going on in your own nation. The US citizens are being screwed by the Wall Street and the international money charger right and left, and yet you still blindly take the hit and blame somebody else.
You are totally off the mark, the people and organizations I asked you to listen are your congressman, ecumenist, and patriotic organization. They are working hard to save your nation.
People like you are so prejudice, bigotry, arrogant and ignorant. The only way you know to argue issues is yelling McCarthyism slogans and calling names.
I tried my best to communicate with the West using my second language, but since when you could communicate with China in Chinese. An Open society like yours even can’t use a second language to talk to other people, it is more like a closed society than open one. “‘one-way conversation’ in your country” is more applicable to the US than anybody else.
Wake up, a self centered nation like the US does the world no good at all.
typhoonq
@Bond @ Slop_Head
It does’nt mean that anybody trying to oppose your views are mainland Chinese.
There are many ethnic Chinese living outside of China who are well informed via Western & Chinese media.
We have a balance view and will not hesistate to stand up to those who gave a bias view or insult the Chinese.
Reason
@John Chan
Firstly, I’m not American…
Secondly, at the moment this ASBM is pure fiction, it doesn’t have a single operational test, let alone able to work in real combat situation.
You’re talking like you’re in the school playground, “Well my missile is much bigger than yours and can go ten times faster!”
Well the fact is you’re talking about something that has never been tested or even fired…. it’s ONLY a concept and by the time it’s really possible the Age of The Carrier will be passed.
typhoonq
@ Reasons,
China has never acknowledge the DF-21D is a Carrier-Killer. It is the US Pacific fleet commander who made the comments that China has started to deploy some of the DF-21D ASBM which can sink US Navy Carriers in the future.
As US Navy 7th fleet C I C, he would not have made such comments unless he has received reliable info from their own Naval Intelligence.Reviewing such info can affect the morale of the Carrier Crews.
If you do not keep track on what other experts say, I suggest you keep your big mouth shut and enjoy your beer.
Reason
@Typhoonq
Yup, I totally agree … China has never officially announced that it has a Carrier Killer, because they’re in the business of Smoke & Mirrors…
The U.S Navy is singing up the Missile because they need to justify more funds… The U.S Navy are the ones shouting about it because they need a credible opponent, i.e an up and coming, assertive P.L.A.N
But in reality, the fact that the George Washington waltzed into the Yellow Sea despite China “spitting it’s dummy” shows that they’re not taking the Carrier Killer Missile to seriously just yet and wont be for the foreseeable future.
But concept of a Mach 10 missile hitting a carrier helps create interest back in the U.S to fund new Navy weapons.
John Chan
@Reason, you are not an American(US), then what are you? Why did you fabricate all those phoney stories to smear the US? Did the US did some bad to you?
It seems you are very nervous about the ASBM, will it because it can sink your nation’s carriers for sure because they are much more vulnerable than the US carriers? Will it possible that you are working on one of those carriers?
Reason
I’ll make you a ‘gentlemen’s’ bet that the Carrier Killer Missile will NEVER hit anything in combat!
It will be D.O.A -just like the Yamato Battleships… Wrong thing, wrong war!
typhoonq
@Reasons,
Ever thought of this !
The Chinese have a second option to make sure the DF-21D ASBM can sink the aircraft carrier. There are many die hard Chinese volunteers who are prepared to sacrifice for the Nation in time of War.A Chinese version of Kamikaze manning a DF-21D. It will surely do the job and sacrifice himeself for the Nation.
Sacrifice one Chinese pilot for 1 aircraft carrier with 5,000 crews onboard.
Do you think this is not impossible ?
John Chan
Here are some info for the US citizen to know about their beloved Federal Reserve (the Fed).
1. The Fed is a private banking cartel for profit; it is not a government agency.
2. The real major shareholders of the Fed are Rothschild, British Crown, and Rockefeller. Rothschild’s agents are JP Morgan and Kuhn, Loeb &Co. British Crown’s agent is Bank of England.
3. The US congress, government and Justice department can not audit the Feb nor they have any authority over any decision taken by the Feb.
4. Lincoln and Kennedy were assassinated because they wanted the US government to issue the money instead of the Feb.
5. The Feb’s charter was expired on 1933 and was not renewed until 2005. Greenspan was knighted by the British Crown for the effort.
John Chan
Here is the expansion of item 3 in case people do not know its significance. Lincoln and Kennedy wanted the US able to use its own money without paying interest to the shareholders of the Feb as oppose to the current setup, the US needs to borrow every penny it spends from the Feb which creates it through the thin air.
John Chan
@Bond, in “If US China would listen” George Soros has made a very insightful analysis of the conflicts between the US and China, and its worrisome development and impact on the world. As GSoros said “both sides are talking past each other even both are making valid points.” So it is a stalemate, no one is right and no one is wrong. The people blaming China as a currency manipulator are not being fair and objective.
Although GSoros was very objective and open minded, his own hopes for action are western orientated and based on an outdated concept of Free Market a.k.a. Free Trade. Free trade was developed by the West to occupy a developing world’s markets without resistance. It served the West very well until they met China, which has capabilities that other developing countries do not have. China has the cost advantage, solid industrial base, innovation capability, and financial sills. They allow China to capture the markets in the West like the West captured markets in the developing world.
Free trade did not give just China the advantage. Japan, Germany, and SKorea were the biggest benefactors way before China came onto the world stage, but no one ever complained. Now blaming China for all the ills of trade imbalance is simply not fair, adding cold war terminology in the debate just makes China bitter.
Free trade only work in ideal conditions which never existed. Now the world is so populous and the trade activity is so vast, even if free trade works, it will take long time to show results. Politicians do not have such luxury to wait for those results. The only way to reduce the trade imbalance is managed trade.
Managed trade through negotiations can control the trade imbalance. It is every nation’s own responsibility to maintain its own trade balance, so they cannot blame somebody else for their trade deficit. Managed trade eliminates finger pointing and bickering between nations as well as interfering in other national internal affairs such as currency valuation, which is a sovereignty issue. Managed trade also forces politicians to focus on taking responsibility to solve problems instead of taking easy way out of blaming somebody else.
QE does not help economic recovery, Japan has been doing it for the last 20 years, and Japan has slowly declined since then. The US recovery problem is being caused by the liquidity trap, not because they are short of liquidity. QE can only solve liquidity problem not the liquidity trap problem. The other obstacle prevents the US from recover normally is that the US has changed from mark-to-market to mark-to-model account method which prevents companies from writing down their bad assets. American(US)’s rich-wannabe culture caused over consumption and resulted in society that does not know how to save. All these problems have nothing to do with other countries.
For the US to create jobs, the US corporations must be more patriotic instead of focusing solely on profits and bonuses. The US must get rid of the debt based economy, abolish the inflationary private banking cartel, also known as the Federal Reserve. Making China revalue RMB does not help. Revaluation of the Yen not reducing the US trade deficit is the proof.
The West might be genuine in inviting China to share world’s responsibility and prominence by integrating China into the existing world order. But the West has forgotten that not long ago China was one of the suppressed in that world order. China does not have the resources to take on such burden, so by accepting the invitation, China becomes one of the suppressors to maintain that world order it protested before. This is a complete betrayal of their own policy, which is one of non-interference and integrity. When China declined that invitation, it was sincere that it was unable to honour that invitation; unfortunately the West’s approach is “either you are with me or you are against me.” China’s non-confrontational yet self determined approach was misunderstood and not well received by the West.
If the readers from different parts of the world can understand each other better via dialog on this site, the benefits will out weigh the harsh words put forth in the heat of debate.
J Smith
Brazil (& Chile) recently has accused the US (for QE2)and China (for undervalued Yuan-subsidy for its exports) of currency manipulation, and warned of ‘possible trade war’! And China’s habit of printing money to buy up the dollar and hold down its Yuan for global trading advantage is not a ‘kind of China’s QE’?! What do you think, John Chan?? You don’t have any trust in economic globalization albeit its having given your country tremendous benefits at the expense of the US, EU and the rest of the world? Think about it!
John Chan
@J Smith, first, even G.Soros said the US problem is not liquidity but a liquidity trap problem. QE does not solve the US economic problem, it only lines the pockets of the rich, the banks and the Wall St. if you have any understanding of how QE and the Feb work. G.Soros said the US Corporations are doing fine, they have huge profits and accumulating cash instead of investing and creating jobs.
Both the US and China are doing QE because the current international financial system is a flawed one, it encourages racing to the bottom competition. This system is damaging to everybody’s wealth except for the rich, the banks and the Wall St.
If China revaluate Yuan and it can help the US, I believe China will do it because it serves its interest too, but as the revaluation of Yen has proved that revaluation of Yen did not reduce the US trade deficit. Even that China is revaluating Yuan, but in a pace that does not bring catastrophic disasters in China.
Economic globalization, yes, but not chaotic free trade, the international trades must be managed orderly, so the disadvantaged nations have chances to build up themselves. Managed trades will force China to get ride that toxic export dependent economic, reduce resources consumption, clean up its polluted environment and let its own people enjoy what they produce.
BTW, China is only copying Japan, S.Krorea and Germany to grow by exporting, and those three nations are still the master of exporting. China probably has trade deficit against those three nations. Blaming China for all the ills is simply not fair.
J. Smith
John,
Give you some more information. As for Qe, there have been lots of pros & cons in the US as well as in the world!
http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/thestreet-inflation-qe-currency-wars-trade/1/13/2011/id/32154
John Chan
@J.Smith, I don’t think you have made an effort to understand my comments to Bond and you. You are merely interested in looking for somebody to blame for the ills in the US instead of working on ways to get the US back on its feet and becoming strong again. You also have no knowledge of how QE, the Wall St., the big Banks, and the Fed work, so you willingly and readily accept those specious excuses for the failure of the Feb towards the US and its people.
The more QE the more money the Wall St. and the big banks made, the heavier debt the ordinary US citizen and their future generations will carry, and poorer they become. It’s the privilege of the Fed to use as many as QE it sees fit, because the Fed does not have to account to anybody in the US. At the same time nobody is idling for the hit.
I only can conclude that our dialog on how to make the US strong again failed. God bless the USA.
slope_head
China has a territorial dispute with Russia, Japan, Tibet (illegally occupied by China), which includes India cuz Tibet and India share a common border, Vietnam, Philippines, Mongolia, Kazakstan and Myanmar etc. In a Sino/USA war, China will lose its territory to these bordering countries despite facing a humiliating defeat from USA.
So stop dreaming about “yellow Super Power” ya all kung fu warriors.
While you brag about the carrier killer, Pakistan is nervous flying your JF-17 in a real war scenario. JF-17’s avionics were purchased from $$dollarama$$ store “stamped as Made in China”
:-)
James
I am an American and lost my job when the GFC struck in 2008.
Languishing for almost a year without a job, I headed for Hong Kong and through a job placement agency found a job in China, Shanghai.
This nation is so dynamic, you can feel that a new Industrial Revolution is taking place, yes happening right now in China!
I am so sorry for those back home who are still jobless and starting to give up hope.I can only say, that the grass is so much greener her in China. Foreign professional like me are paid very well and I just love the place.There is so much happening going on that i have decided to stay for the next few years.
I am so positive about this nation, that I have to disagree with many of you who are so negative, spiteful and blind.In the short space of time that I am here, I can see that there are so much we can learn from the Chinese.
typhoonq
What make you think US can defeat China. Prove it !
The last encounter between US and China Army was during the Korean War, where you guys who had the most advance weapons were defeated by the Chinese PLA in North Korea. The PLA which was poorly armed with captured second world war weapons managed to drive the US and UN Forces back to South Korea from the Yalu River.
According to your Military history, this is US Army longest retreat in Battle. I have personally seen captured US Army tanks and Artillery pieces at Beijing Miltary Muesuem.
US have also lost in the Vietnam War with Chinese troops participating on the North Vietnamese side. Originally,US was tempted to invade North Vietnam but had to change their mind for fear of Chinese intervention. This is recorded personally by former defence secretary McNamara.
YiJiun
Pride comes before a fall. Nobody can stand tall forever. Both Japan and Germany overestimated themselves by being imperialistic all over the region. Currently, China is still living under the active provocation of Japan. Mentality wise, China is not the stupid aggressive type. It only wants to defend its rightful territories and if the US were to engage it in near waters, good luck!
All right, if you think you are able to defeat everyone and still live anywhere near your current status, go ahead. History would have the final say. I believe God wouldn’t side with the snobbish aggressor who is actually ‘the thief yelling catch thief’. Napolean had already given us the prediction. It’s up to you.
China is totally different from the Facist regimes and stop linking them together. In fact, you are shielding the country which still worships its WW2 ‘heroes’ and glorifies past misdeeds. You are in no position to accuse China of being facist. Not every leader can kill hundreds of thousands of innocent lives and still win the Nobel Peace Prize. I understand hegemony, but that doesn’t mean we are going to accept it and we will change the world.
Just you wait and see. I hope global stock exchanges can launch a new ‘commodity’ trading platform, betting on future geopolitical developments. Hot on the list – China vs USA. I bet it will be a hot buy! Trust me. It will be a money making machine!
Voz
Exactly, even a gentle panda gets mad if it is constantly get stunk by Japanese bees. The irony is that no one blames the stupid bees; everyone, especially the idiotic bald eagle, sees the panda as the real threat because of panda’s size, even though the panda has never disturb the bee hive but the bees have had injured the panda several times before.
DANA WYANDT
Did you actually refer to China as a gentle panda..Do you know anything about China’s history? How did the communist come to power again?.. Oh yea by killing all the teachers and smart people in the country.. See people with brains don’t act like robots and blindly follow orders so well..Every muslim extreme group on the planet is armed with CHINESE and SOVIET weapons.. you know the two communist countries trying to pair up and rule the world now.. Why don’t you go on China TV and have a poll about how the people think of their own government.. Oh I’m sorry there is NO FREE TV.. There is none, the people have NO OPINION,unless THE GOVERNMENT TELLS THEM SO.. CHINA IS A SOCIETY WITH NO RIGHTS.. You better thank god we are as powerful as we are, because China is wanting ALL THE PIE.. AMERICA is the one who has screwed up a lot along the way, but we are a FREE COUNTRY.. Where you can speak your mind, run for president.. build a business.. AND not be worried your govt is going to KIDNAP YOUR MOTHER OR FATHER until you get sterilized.. YEA that’s another gem they do.. If you choose to have more than one child and the Chinese govt finds out… I’m sorry You can make a choice..You come in on your own or they take a member of your family and throw them in prison until you get sterilized..IF China comes to full power, they will make Stalin and Hitler look like children.. The world we live in will be the blackest in its history.. BUT DON’T WORRY.. WE ARE here IN AMERICA, will protect YOU.. WE ALWAYS DO..
henrykseng
Man, some of you guys make it sound like we’re going to have a war. None of that is going to happen in the foreseeable future, considering the general trend. Despite a few hot spots, here and there, e.g. North Korean, Iran, Afghanistan, the world is pretty prosperous and hence, content. The possibility of two big countries going to war is totally irrational. Over what? Taiwan? Oil? That would be ridiculous.
What we have here are a few people or organizations that may benefit from the war industry that are loud and looking for trouble. They’re not fooling anyone. There are enough sensible people in our major institutions to prevent this group of people from doing anything crazy. This is vague, but again, this is just a comment.
James Phifer
The facts don’t lie, the U.S. has made the biggest strategic blunder in the history of empires by invading Iraq,an unfunded war,(for all you dumb yahoo’s that means not paid for),that in the long term will cost $4,trillion dollars.The effect this has on the economy is inescapable, you are feeling the effects now by the numerous cutbacks at the Federal and state levels, in an attempt to maintain a semblance of viability. Our self created Potemkin village. The wall street meltdown was only theft from the American people engineered and conspired by the same Jewish cabal of Zionists that railroaded us into the Iraq war which was primarily for Israels National Security. Bush is a sucker and so is Obama they were both controlled by Z.O.G.,(Zionist Occupied Government)who won’t allow you to say Merry Christmas anymore, talk about the Anti-Christ, they are, remember they betrayed the son of god to the Romans. The country is bankrupt, and you can only devalue the currency for so long, QE-1,QE-2 and now they are talking about QE-3, we will end up like Germany after WWI, engineered by another Jew named Walther Rathnau, Google it, read for your own eyes. All of the western economies are on the brink, years of Imperialist actions and Insane social welfare programs is destroying Europe, and the U.S. is the last bastion of Racist White Supremacy and after the fall the whole house comes down. They are terrified that Iran will get the Bomb because they can no longer use nuclear blackmail against the rest of the world, as to their lack of resolve in the case of Pakistan who have over 100 nukes and is building that up to 200 nukes, yes if they attack Iran they may have some success, but Iran is a major power and Have not been beaten down by 10 years of sanctions like Iraq was, which left their army decimated , but yet the insurgency still managed to exact a heavy cost to the U.S. with a war that was to supposed to have cost only $60 billion dollars and was to be paid for by Iraq with Oil revenues, what a joke, Iraq is now a gift on a silver platter to Iran, Iran will strike worldwide and including the Strait of Hormuz where a good share of the Oil flows through, with the western economies in such a vulnerable position, the Oil prices will only have to be north of $200 dollars a barrel for 2 months and every western economy will collapse and never recover. When the Visigoths rode into Rome and burned it to the ground in 410 A.D., it took 45 years for the Vandals to ride in and burn it also in 455 A.D.,with the modern world now as it stands it will only take 45 days between when the U.S. suffers a major defeat and China,Russia,Iran,The Latin America consortium move in for the final kill, have you checked the news lately the Latin American Consortium has stated that no ship that bears the flag of the Falklands shall use any port in South America, so the Imperialist British has been will have to supply them from 8,000 miles away, a huge cost to an already super-stressed economy, all for a few thousand sheep farmers, we will see how long that lasts. Brazil and Argentina can develop Nuclear weapons in a fortnight. Yes we are in the times when the Drums have stopped, judgement day is coming and there shall be no mercy for the wicked.