I wrote last week how at the defence level at least, there seemed to be something of a thaw in relations between China and Japan.
As the Asahi Shimbun noted last week, Japanese Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa and his Chinese counterpart Liang Guanglie met in Hanoi last week, the first time they had done so since tensions flared last month over a territorial dispute over the Senkaku islands (Diaoyu in China).
Meanwhile, the Asahi also reported over the weekend that Chinese and Japanese officials were working to arrange a meeting in Hanoi later this month between Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, who will both be attending the East Asia Summit later this month.
But the picture is still complex, not least because there are domestic forces pushing both sides to take a harder line. As Andy noted over the weekend in Tokyo Notes, Kan has come in for criticism following his handling of the detention of a Chinese fishing trawler captain after the vessel collided with two Japan Coast Guard ships. Initially, the Japanese line was that the matter should be dealt with in the courts, but under intense Chinese pressure, Japan decided to release the captain.
The decision to back down hurt the Kan Cabinet’s poll numbers, with a Yomiuri Shimbun survey showing its approval rating falling from 66 percent in late September to 53 percent at the start of this month. A Mainichi poll showed a similarly precipitous drop.
The opposition Liberal Democratic Party, meanwhile, has also been hammering the ruling Democratic Party of Japan over the issue, while Japanese nationalists have been taking to the streets of Tokyo accusing China of invading the Senkakus and complaining of the ‘weak’ leadership exhibited by the Kan government. The latest demonstration came Saturday, when an estimated 2000 people marched near the Chinese embassy.
But such protests appear to have been dwarfed by some of the anti-Japan protests going on in China, and while I don’t think anyone would accuse the DPJ of orchestrating Saturday’s march in Tokyo, there are signs that there may be an official hand in the Chinese demonstrations.
One place that saw a sizeable anti-Japanese march was Chengdu, the capital of the south-west province of Sichuan. According to the Chengdu Living blog, an estimated 35,000 people took part in a protest on Saturday that saw demonstrators march to a Japanese department store before being confronted by a line of police.
I asked Chengdu Living blogger Charlie, who attended the march and who took some striking images of the protesters, for his take on what he saw. He told me that emotions were running high during the protests and that those leading the crowd by holding signs, yelling slogans, and using megaphones were clearly riled up by the Japan issue (although he added that some marchers were much calmer and even friendly).
I was curious whether in his opinion the marches were, as some have claimed, spontaneous a outpouring of frustration. He told me: ‘I sensed official organization. Something like this doesn't happen without the authorities giving it a green light and that, to me, is evidence enough of this being orchestrated by the party.’
Charlie isn’t the only one who sees an official hand. Hugely popular Chinese blogger Han Han last month reportedly criticized anti-Japan demonstrations as ‘a mass game engineered by the government’ in a post that was deleted by the authorities from his site, but which ended up being widely circulated on the internet.
That China’s government has fanned nationalist anger, especially toward Japan, to divert attention from its internal problems has been widely commented on over the years. But one thing that’s particularly striking about the images from Chengdu is how young almost all of the protesters look. While Japanese nationalists often (though by no means exclusively) draw their ranks from the middle-aged, the protesters in China are almost all typically of student age.
Instead of encouraging its young people to look forward, the Communist Party has instead too often tried to infuse them with a sense of victimhood. The implications of an angry, gender-skewed younger generation growing up and taking positions of power is, for obvious reasons, more than a little troubling to dwell on.
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SE962582C
There are indeed a Great many of them around, even digitally, and even upon the very Site and Platform of this, with the great many of them educated, but not THAT educated, and not THAT intelligent either, with ALMOST ALL of them having NOTHING Good to say, to Write and/or to add, AT ALL, rather than any attempt to engage in anything remotely resembling polite, decent and/or intellectual conversations.
At least some of them are not spending all of the time of theirs hacking the Computers! Well, at least not at the same time anyway, and anyhow!
China, too, (with Hong Kong, one is afraid) actually has, and DOES actually have, a significant and a considerable, but concealed and/or hidden, Youth and Young/Younger Adult un-employment, not under-employment, problem of its or of Her very own, too, somewhat evidently; and does it, or does Her, not?!
Frank
All people entitled to their opinions. You should listen to our Chinese people’s points of view even if you do not like them.
It is Chinese people who will decide what to do with Japan in the future after all.
SE962582C
To quote quote “It is (Sic.) [will be] (Sic.) [THE] Chinese [P]eople (Sic.) who will (Sic.) decide[s] what to do with Japan in the future after all.” and unquote.
One CANNOT possibly believe that a Member of the supposedly “Peaceful China” and “China of Peace” is actually advocating actively for the World-War Three or 3, the Third or the 3rd World-War?!
The, THE, Chinese People could only possibly decide “what to do” “with” (and/or “to”) Japan and the Japanese AFTER occupying Japan, AFTER militarily-defeating Japan and the Japanese, as in the year 1945 by one of the others.
If there WERE, in plural in the past tense, to be a World-War Three or 3, a Third or a 3rd World-War, after all, at least do it with “(a) bigger fish” in mind!
Hongjian
Funny.
If the Chinese government orchestrated these demonstrations, why didnt these things happen in Beijing and Shanghai, but only in those remote cities like Chengdu and Xi’an?
But whatever. No matter if the government ‘organized it’ or not, the protesters still have a point.
And this wont change, if China would become a democracy tomorrow – The Chinese youth will still hate the Japanese guts and never rest until they formally apologized for every atrocity they did in China.
SE962582C
Do you not think that it is unreasonable, if not also immoral and morally wrong, for the Chinese to somehow expect the Japanese OF TODAY to somehow apologise for something that they did NOT PERSONALLY do (and therefore NOT PERSONALLY responsible), AND for-ever?!
Let’s have some Intellectual Honesty Here; shall we?!
At least one has the decency and the honesty to admit that one is NOT born in the years 1937 or 1941, let alone the years 1911, 1912 or 1928 (!); and let’s face it, as most, if not all, of the Readers at Here are anyway and anyhow NOT born in the years 1911, 1912, 1928, 1937 or 1941 either!
Frank
For your information, there are still large number of Japanese who raped and killed many Chinese people before are still living in Japan.
At least, they should apologize. Do you agree?
SE962582C
To quote quote ” … , there are still large number of Japanese who … ” and unquote.
The Weasel Words aside, HOW MANY EXACTLY?! Are we talking about Millions?! Tens of Millions?! Hundreds of Thousands?! Even you cannot possibly say or write; can you?!
That is of course and anyway, and anyhow, false and untrue.
Your Case would had been stronger by somewhat if you still have the, and actually name the, Real and the Actual NAMES (with PoBs, DoBs, etc.).
“Making it All Up”; and “Making Things Up”; acts and activities, along with Forgery and Counterfeiting, that give the Chinese a Bad Name.
You can “should this” and “should that” all you like, but at the End of the Day, “they” “are” in Japan, most probably Under-Ground, as in “Six Feet Under”, NOT “Camping” and “Holidaying” somewhere in China as PoWs.
SE962582C
It is NOT a Question of whether one “agrees”, I “agree”, or not, or else.
Unlike in China the PRC, Japan and the Japanese do NOT (the PRESENT Tense, NOT the Past Tense) do Torture, or to do things such as extracting “FORCED Apologies” or “FORCED Remorse” BY PHYSICAL and BODILY TORTURE, things that Japan and the Japanese do NOT do; things and some-thing that is and that are still widespread, if not universal, in, and the opposite being still largely and almost, if not actually, unknown, in China the PRC.
This is after all THE REAL WORLD and of the World of REAL-POLITIK, and also of the World of Politics as well as of the World of the Foreign Affairs and of the Foreign Policy, which are ALL Amoral, not Immoral, in and within themselves; a Moral Vacuum and a “Moral Black-Hole” where both Morality itself as well as Immorality do NOT either exist or come into play, and where the Questions of “Should” and of “Should not” do NOT actually, or really, have a place.
Bill Rich
The objective of these protests is to focus the flurries of the young unemployed and underemployed on an external enemy. Doing it in Beijing in front of the Japanese embassy would be too strong a message to Japan. Doing it in second tier cities would tone down the message. Furthermore, the Chinese government worries about these protests may turn internally for dissatisfaction on what the Chinese government has done about this issue. Putting the protests in second tier cities will keep the potential danger away from the central government which is responsible for dealing with territorial claims.
Sascha
Its not necessarily the fact that the CP organized this protest, but allows it to happen. The government here will not allow protesters to march in the streets for ANY other issue — only “patriotic” duty aimed against foreign devils is acceptable. All other grievances result in beatings, arrest and “harmony” … that, I think, is why many Westerners find these protests to be ridiculous and “rigged” (organized by someone and not spontaneous).
The truth is, Japan is a very weird nation that for some East Asian concept that will forever remain “mysterious” to Westerners (and Chinese it seems), the Japanese are unable to face the crimes of WWII and atone for them publicly. The aid they give to China every year is no substitute. So Chinese will always react emotionally to any conflict with Japan and that these two issues
1) CP allowing only protest against foreign devils
2) Chinese hating Japanese
are actually separate issues.
SE962582C
The Non-Chinese ARE Human Beings.
The Non-Chinese are NOT “Devils” (“Guǐ-Zi” ( ” 鬼子 ” )) NOR “Foreign Devils” (“Yáng-Guǐ-Zi” ( ” 洋鬼子 ” )) .
It may or might be acceptable or be tolerated to use that sort of language, in every-day speech and writing, and even in “polite” conversations, in Chinese, but NOT in English the English language (Such a term, a very Chinese one indeed, actually has NO native equivalent in English.).
Let’s have some Intellectual Honesty AT Here; shall we?!
John Chan
There are characteristics of organized demonstrations; lineups, a lot of banners and flags, pumping fists, T-Shirts and headbands/caps. One can see those things whenever there is an organized demonstrations carried out by unions and social movements in EU, UK, the US, Japan, Canada, etc. I guess that the author has never seen a real organized demonstrations, otherwise he won’t post that picture as a support for his anti-China rhetoric. There isn’t any of those organized demonstration characteristics in the photo of this article. If the demonstration in that photo is organized by the Chinese officials, it shows how much lack of control by the officials, which proves that the image of China portrayed by the West as an iron fist control old USSR is a hoax. The photo of Japanese Senkaku islands demonstrations in the North America SingTao Daily and MingPao Daily, on the other hand, showed all those organized demonstrations features, which are clear evidence enough of that being orchestrated by the Imperial Japan hardliners or the proxies of Japanese government.
The author has no clue about the amount of demonstrations that are happening in China, most of them are confrontations with authority on social issues. The author seems never been in China for real journalism work. Is his source in China real or just a part of his anti-China network?
If the atrocity the Nazi done to the Jews is horrible, it compares pale with the Japanese has done in China. Ask Jews whether they will ever really forgive the Germans even the Germans have shown remorse by action. The photo showed a spontaneous outpouring of frustration by the Chinese youth towards the Japan, it reflects how Chinese feel toward Japan which has not being shown remorse for their WWII guilt, making concert effort to cover up their crimes in WWII, as well as continue demonstrates aggression toward China.
The last thing the ruling class of China wants is social disturbance, which always ended in chaos and instability in China. The author is totally naïve, and ignorant about Chinese society and politics, or has hidden agenda, by accusing China’s government uses anger toward Japan to divert attention from its internal problems.
The willingness of the author to turn a blind eye on the Japanese aggression, predatory behavior, evil historical records, and accuse the victim, China, trying to protect itself, make one wonder the author’s sense on justice, freedom, liberty and fairness. The author’s skewed pro-Japan stance only encourages Japan to continue its current behavior that is a danger to the peace and prosperity of the world as well as to the Japan and Japanese themselves, because the Japanese think they can get away with any atrocity they carry out as the author misleads the Japanese. Armageddon of the world, not only Japan, as the author is leading us into is no fun.
SE962582C
The Chinese are NOT the Jews.
There is actually a thing called “False Analogy”.
The Chinese Government, the Government of China the PRC, uses, and DOES use, Nationalist/Ultra-Nationalist Anger especially towards Japan and the Japanese to divert attention from its internal problems; a Statement OF FACT that is NOT in Dispute (at least NOT at most of the major Cities of the major Foreign Capitals, Economic and Political).
mareo2
In the mean time, the rest of the neighbors of China take note of the nationalism in the PRC. Buying weapons and start to make military exchanges like India-Vietnam. They dont are preparing for war with Japan, they are preparing for war with an aggressive an expansionist China.
John Chan
Well said, every nation should able to defend its sovereignty. Every nation should have enough strength to deter military adventurism behaving recklessly and endanger the peace and prosperity of the Asia and the world. I totally agree with you that India and Vietnam should prepare to safe guard themselves in case China breaks its words on rising peacefully. Following your statements, China must fully prepare to deter the US, Japan, India and Vietnam form joining hands and conduct modern Opium Wars against China and plunge China in the suffering it has endure in the last 150 years. Since we all are on the same page that every nation has the right to defend itself, do you think that the anti-China groups labeling China’s military modernization as expansionist is wrong? China is merely doing what India and Vietnam are doing. Other than the purpose to smear China’s effort of rising peacefully, what are the real purposes of those name calling?
Hong
The previous 150 years of chronological time are not pure suffering that can be directed at Western powers and the British Opium War. The overly simplistic “century of humiliation” has fact in it, but it’s played out. While the Qing Empire was losing power over its vassals in the east and south (suzerainty over Korea, Vietnam, Ryukyu, Taiwan), it tried to assert full and direct sovereign power over previously autonomous area (Dzungaria, Tibet and Outer Mongolia). We can cry and boo-hoo “China’s humiliation” while at the same time, the Qing Dynasty and its successors enacted imperial policies upon other areas.
Furthermore, I would certainly say that you cannot include the previous 60 years in a blanket statement of “150 years of humiliation”. If you were to claim some time period of roughly 1840-1940, that would be about 100 years. The PRC was certainly not a weak state that was bullied by foreign powers, unless you just enjoy living in a state of self-loathing and want to always consider Chinese people as perpetually exploited by foreigners.
John
“If the atrocity the Nazi done to the Jews is horrible, it compares pale with the Japanese has done in China. Ask Jews whether they will ever really forgive the Germans even the Germans have shown remorse by action.”
Actually, I have read personal stories of both. I have visited museums withs photos from the killings. Whether it pales in comparison or not, it wasn’t only the Chinese that the Japanese attacked.
Our countries also know our own history and yet we dont hate without a reason a people who no longer exist. The soldier who butchered our women is dead or so old it no longer matters. My Grandfathers war is over, I wont refight it with his enemies Grandson who doesn’t cause me any real problems.
I read a statement once that said that Chinese are like teenagers. I have taught teenage boys and I agree with that statement, many of the issues that are raised are very similar to my high school boys arguments.
Filled with emotion, lacking in logic.
If you work yourself up too much over an issue, you can learn to be angry with anything.
As to whether the Holocaust survivors can forgive, that is thier issue. Their sons and daughters dont hate for ever.
Neither should you.
Though, I would say that the Chinese hate for Japan is a created issue rather than a logical understandable one. Just out of curiousity, how many Japanese friends have you had?
When you hate – what personally happened in your family or to you that keeps that hate burning?
John Chan
@John, Why do you hate China and its people so much? Because of the rise of China affects your job? You turned a correction on a totally distorted analysis of an event (this article) as an expression of hatred against Japan and its people. One reader once commented “I was just trying to allude to the fact that many of the comments in this website reveal a huge amount of political/cultural prejudice on the part of the commenters.” Do you hate someone who goes against the majority anti-China comments, and keep on telling the truth to repel the distorted comments about China? As a Chinese do you think I have the right to defend China with truth?
After 70 million deaths, maimed, raped and 150 years disasters, do you think China has the right to be on guard against the instigators? Particularly Japan has never been showing remorse against their WWII guilt as the Germans did; the Japanese are erasing their WWII crimes from their history books as well text books; Japan is still occupying RyuKyu Kingdom; Japanese are using forces to harm civilians in an area not belong to them; Japan arms to the teeth and its armed forces are stronger than any nations in Asia which is a violation to their peace constitution.
I must admire your argument skills, first ask the victim to let down the guard by saying “by gone is by gone, rancor is unhelpful.” then stab him without mercy in the name of fabricated crimes, just like what has happened to Iraq, Afghan, Yugoslavia, Panama, …
John, you are the second person challenge me about the knowledge on Japan and Japanese. Please go to http://the-diplomat.com/2010/10/05/how-to-improve-china-japan-ties/#comment-5921 for the reply I gave to Craig and Prof Utonium.
Finally John, do the “Rape of Nanking”, Japanese officers’ chopping head contests, bayonet practice on live China POW affect you, I just wonder whether you have actually read the books, attended the museums, or you are just heartless and cruel like those Imperial Japanese Solders.
Frank
For your information, there are still large number of Japanese who raped and killed many Chinese people before are still living in Japan.
At least, they should apologize. Do you agree?
“The Holocaust survivors can forgive” because Germans never denied the existence of holocaust.
Jews can never forgive those who deny the existence of holocaust.
So cannot Chinese.
Bill Rich
And Chinese people have forgiven the Chinese who killed millions of Chinese ?
John Chan
No, Chinese people have NOT forgiven or forgot the Chinese who killed millions of Chinese. Those traitors and murders are recorded in Chinese history. Those villains are either punished by denouncement in the history so their shame will last forever, or they are punished when justice can be enforced on them, something not uncommon around the world. Chinese do not do what the West and Japan did which is glorifying their slaughter as doing good deeds for the world. Such examples include the killings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Martin Luther King, the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, experimental biological warfare in China, and nuclear war on Japan to name a few. The list is endless.
hong
China is an imperialist country just like every other large-sized country in the world. Through nationalism, it seems like many of the common people feel a need to defend the policies of a state they don’t actually control. That part is a bit sad.
Western countries have many moral shortcomings, but the development of Western liberalism is inherently an internal reaction to Western imperialism. This is misunderstood by Chinese as just a form of lies and trickery to fool China into submission.
Your statement that “Chinese do not do what the West and Japan did which is glorifying their slaughter as doing good deeds for the world” is a little off-track. Many Westerners do not claim that imperial activities in the West were necessarily good for the world. Furthermore, China is very guilty of slaughtering people and hiding it. In China, this has been called “re-uniting the motherland” if China has decided some place has “always been part of China” but in reality it is/was not. The most amusing aspect can be seen with the invasion of Tibet, and the murderous suppression of the anti-Chinese revolt in 1959, which was heralded as a stage in Marxist development (a leapfrog jump from feudalism into socialism).
I’ll give you credit that China has not sent warships into far-flung territories as Western powers have done, but China is not innocent of hiding horrible atrocities against humanity. I don’t think China gets higher marks than the West/Japan merely because it didn’t drop tanks into countries on multiple continents. It’s own sins are quite ugly, so the entire comparison is probably just pointless to make.
John Chan
@John, This is a forum for the discussion different viewpoints. We should only discuss the facts, not readers personals. But you have crossed that line of etiquette and delivered a personal attack against a contributor who had a very different personal life experience, and has a different philosophy from yours. Are you running out of words to argue against the truth and facts? Are the truth and facts making the anti-China rhetoric appear ugly and untruthful? Or is it because the truth and facts hurt your conscience, so you have to resort to underhanded tactics to discredit my comments? So John, what are you?
Craig
John Chan – why is that every time someone disagrees with your point of view it is an outrageous personal attack? John’s tone was very measured and he makes some reasonable points. You clearly have a great deal of anger towards the Japanese, so I don’t think it was unreasonable for him to ask if there’s any reason why that’s the case. You are quite happy to call for countries to be effectively annexed by China (you suggested this for Vietnam) and regularly question people’s motivations and describe them as China haters for saying anything remotely critical. So please don’t be so thin-skinned every time someone says something you don’t like.
Joihn Chan
@Craig, your comment demonstrates how hard for a Chinese to presents proper information about China. To a Chinese, John and Jason are distorting the facts, which leads to the danger of plunging China into hell again. Yet you treat my correction of misinformation as whining, and outrageous personal attack. If you think John’s question is very measured and not unreasonable,
let me ask you the same question John asked me “I would say that ‘the West’ hate for China is a created issue rather than a logical understandable one. Just out of curiosity, Craig how many Chinese friends have you had?
When you hate – what personally happened in your family or to you that keeps that hate burning? (You can replace ‘the West’ with your own country.)”
When India swallowed Sikkim with unilateral action is called annex. I only suggested a peaceful solution used by Canada, the US, Germany, etc. when they formed their nations. Please do not put your twisted words in my mouth.
Any fabricated facts, misinformation, distorted presentations about China and its people must be corrected before they become snowballing. The result of snowballing is that the lies become truth. After the falsified truth accepted by the general public, sanctions will be followed. The ugly results brought by the falsified truth are all over the world. Craig, do you want your country to be falsely attacked by people like John and Jason as they are attacking China right now and sanctioned by the world? What John, Jason, etc. are doing is called setting up pretext for regime change. It has happened many times since the end of the cold war.
Craig, why are you so willingly turning a blind eye on reckless nation full of evidence to repeat its ravages in WWII on it neighboring countries, and trashing any Chinese tries to stop Japan from misbehave again?
Bill Rich
When your presentation starts with “Why do you hate Chinese so much ?” for no reason at all, you were not explaining your point.
SE962582C
What have had all these got to do with Sikkim?!
Sikkim IS, in the Present Tense, NOT part of NOR belong to China the PRC.
Sikkim is a former Indian/Hindustani Protected and/or Co-Protected State, a former Indian/Hindustani Associated State, a former Indian/Hindustani Territory and a Indian/Hindustani State, NOT a Chinese Province, Autonomous National Region nor Sub-Province/Sub-Region.
This is Japan, England, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain, NOT China the PRC, NOT Hong Kong, NOT even Taiwan the Formosa, and thus that therefore neither the Chinese Government, nor the Chinese People even, or its individual Members, have the right or the entitlement (have NO Right) to Censor (“To Correct”) unflattering (“Wrong” and/or “Incorrect”) Articles upon and concerning China and/or the Chinese.
Liberty N.
“Anything belongs to us is mine (China)! And anything belongs to you is ours(shared)!” What’s wrong with you, China?!
You can not use bullying or roughness to force other people to negotiate and accept your terms when, in fact, you had nothing to do with it! (Not a bit of sovereignty over it!)
150 years of being humiliated by Westerners and Japan is just a flimsy excuse for your recent aggressive and hostile stance towards your neighbours. Where’s your “peaceful rise” now ? You cannot redraw the world and remake the rules by yourself! Play by the rules and live by the laws, China!
John Chan
Here are the facts about the Western and International law and rules.
1. First of all, democracy in the West is about procedures, not justifiable and equitable ends. Therefore western democracy does not guarantee liberty and justice. Prohibition was put in place and repealed as constitutional amendments.
2. In the western legal systems, all laws, regardless the status of the law, can be changed as long as the changes follow proper procedures. Again the western legal system does not guarantee liberty and justice. Look at how Germany was changed by the Nazi’s.
3. The western judicial systems are not about right or wrong, it is about whether the laws are followed or broken, therefore the judicial system does not guarantee liberty and justice. OJ Simpson murdered his wife, Bill Clinton got away with adultery.
4. Regarding sovereignty, the spirit of international law says it is your sovereignty only if you can maintain it. The independent Kingdom of Hawaii is now an American State and the Kingdom of Ryukyu belongs to Japan.
More than one million square miles of land was taken away from China by force under the unequal treaties in the last 150 years. Those lands are not under China’s sovereignty right now as China cannot or is not willing to exert control over those lands. China can claim sovereignty over those lands on the basis they were robbed away from China. At the end Russo-Japanese War, of which the majority was fought on the Chinese land, the Russians ceded the rights of Chinese land to Japan without involving or consulting China. Although both Russia and Japan recognized the land was Chinese, China could not exercise its sovereignty over that land, because China was weak and could not enforce control over it.
The incident of Senkaku/Daioyu islets is about maintaining sovereignty.
China will follow laws and precedents established by the West, especially the United States, the British Empire, Japan, and Russia, to exercise sovereignty over the lands that belong to China. Eviction of trespassers is a nation’s sovereign rights and is no different than the building of the fence along the US-Mexican border.
childhood
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Noah Steward
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Ardelle Vaneps
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Moses Pagni
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